King Younk
Warlord
As a rule of thumb, shouldn’t you prioritize your Civ’s unique buildings/units/Leader characteristics along with map? Broad question with many exceptions.
Prioritize uniques
- Thread starter King Younk
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FlyinJohnnyL
You need more workers....
90% of unique buildings are useless. 85% of unique units are useless*. Characteristics have been discussed here heavily, recently. I believe there's an active thread in the general discussion section regarding leader characteristics.
*I might be exaggerating a little bit, I haven't actually crunched the numbers. But for a general mindset, ignore unique buildings and units for the most part. Basically, if the standard unit or building is good, the uniques will be a bit better. Otherwise, if the standard building or unit is not good, usually the unique isn't, either. Sure, once you can master the basics, you can start to learn the nuances of which situations call for them. But until you start beating immortal regularly and deity occasionally, I'd say ignore unique units and buildings, and focus on the standards. For example, horse archers are very good. That means Keshiks are even better. Conversely, swordsmen aren't very good, so that would mean Jaguars aren't very good, either. And almost all buildings suck, so almost all unique buildings suck, too.
*I might be exaggerating a little bit, I haven't actually crunched the numbers. But for a general mindset, ignore unique buildings and units for the most part. Basically, if the standard unit or building is good, the uniques will be a bit better. Otherwise, if the standard building or unit is not good, usually the unique isn't, either. Sure, once you can master the basics, you can start to learn the nuances of which situations call for them. But until you start beating immortal regularly and deity occasionally, I'd say ignore unique units and buildings, and focus on the standards. For example, horse archers are very good. That means Keshiks are even better. Conversely, swordsmen aren't very good, so that would mean Jaguars aren't very good, either. And almost all buildings suck, so almost all unique buildings suck, too.
AcaMetis
Deity
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Without exception, assuming the only concern is winning the map, no. You play the map first, and your leader/civilization second. Being Julius Caesar and having Praetorians doesn't automatically mean you should rush Iron Working and pump out an army, it means you've got a solid unit if the entire strategy of going into an early war is valid in the first place.
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FJL is most correct on unique buildings. Really only a couple with tangible benefits that apply to early building. Incans terrace and Shaka's Ikhanda are two that I can think of. Terrace obvious as its the only unique version of the most important building in the game, and makes Capac quasi-creative. Barracks are not very important but its a very early building that provides a nice benefit that just so happens to be at a 50% discount due to Shaka. Besides those two, most come to late or are buildings that are not worth building in most games. A few of the buildings may look good on paper, like Aztec Sac Altar, or simply come too late to be of use. Regardless, one's needs to ask oneself if that particular building is worth it compared to far more important things.
85% may be a bit strong on unique units, as there is are certainly a few that can be game changing..namely some earlier ones. For example, the Quecha, considered to be the top unique unit, does not do you much good in isolation or in cases where you have great distances or water between you and the enemy. Same for some other early uniques. But in the right circumstances you can really change the game with a few of them. Whether to prioritize or not is, of course, situational. There are quite a few UUs that are simply irrelevant or of comparatively little benefit over base.
I assume by Leader characteristics that you mean Leader Traits. I think the issue here is learning how to best use those traits, especially the strong traits. Otherwise, maybe you mean prioritize the say any buildings bonuses a trait may provide. It really depends on the building. Creative cheap libraries and Expansive granaries are certainly something that I leverage. However, for example, Protective bonus on walls is complete blech, and it is the worst trait.
85% may be a bit strong on unique units, as there is are certainly a few that can be game changing..namely some earlier ones. For example, the Quecha, considered to be the top unique unit, does not do you much good in isolation or in cases where you have great distances or water between you and the enemy. Same for some other early uniques. But in the right circumstances you can really change the game with a few of them. Whether to prioritize or not is, of course, situational. There are quite a few UUs that are simply irrelevant or of comparatively little benefit over base.
I assume by Leader characteristics that you mean Leader Traits. I think the issue here is learning how to best use those traits, especially the strong traits. Otherwise, maybe you mean prioritize the say any buildings bonuses a trait may provide. It really depends on the building. Creative cheap libraries and Expansive granaries are certainly something that I leverage. However, for example, Protective bonus on walls is complete blech, and it is the worst trait.
Disagree with Swordsmen not being very good. If you're fighting mostly Archers (commerce heavy start, prioritize IW or AI has no metal), you'll want Swords instead of Axes. If you're playing an Agg civ, you may go for Swords period. You can even withstand a few Axes no problem if you give the boys Shock promo. I've wiped out 2 nearby AI's with a Swords rush on Immortal with an Agg civ. It's situational but it can work. And of course Praets... Don't get me started on those cuz they are Swords in name only. Gallics with Boudica are very strong too.
The rest of your post is spot on.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Swords are an underrated unit for everything cept deity, yup i agree.
40h is very good for overflow whipping.
They are still useful for deity when combined with Cats ofc, just can very rarely use them on their own before.
(great for barb cities thou)
40h is very good for overflow whipping.
They are still useful for deity when combined with Cats ofc, just can very rarely use them on their own before.
(great for barb cities thou)
FlyinJohnnyL
You need more workers....
Well you can tell I frequented this forum for many years, then disappeared for many and only recently came back. TIL that swordsmen are actually good!
I used to get beat over the head with the phrase "don't bother with swordsmen, just go for axes." I'm still learning about a 15 year old game, one of the reasons I love it. I do use Praets at least...
I used to get beat over the head with the phrase "don't bother with swordsmen, just go for axes." I'm still learning about a 15 year old game, one of the reasons I love it. I do use Praets at least...
I guess that about summarizes it.. You could extend that to say 90% of ALL buildings are useless.
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A quick glance down the list of UBs... you've got some that are just plain good upgrades of stuff you want to build multiple of anyways. Think Terrace or Madrassa. Some that you might only build one or two of in your whole empire in key cities, but they're quite nice anyways. Think Forum or Citadel. Some that will be of limited value most games, but if you end up shaping your strategy around them it becomes a nice boost. Think cultural victory Pavilion or EE Mausoleum.
Then you've got the ones that come too late in the game; victory or defeat is effectively settled in most games before they become available (e.g., Mall). The ones that aren't really noticeable upgrades on the base in most games (e.g., Salon, Trading Post). The ones that just cost too many hammers, even with the upgrade (e.g., Garden). Overall I'd say these mostly-useless ones make up about half the UBs.
UUS are in a better spot. A clear and strong majority of them are good for their time period; if the game makes it a reasonable option, you'll lean strongly towards a timing attack favoring them.
Then you've got the ones that come too late in the game; victory or defeat is effectively settled in most games before they become available (e.g., Mall). The ones that aren't really noticeable upgrades on the base in most games (e.g., Salon, Trading Post). The ones that just cost too many hammers, even with the upgrade (e.g., Garden). Overall I'd say these mostly-useless ones make up about half the UBs.
UUS are in a better spot. A clear and strong majority of them are good for their time period; if the game makes it a reasonable option, you'll lean strongly towards a timing attack favoring them.
King Younk
Warlord
Pfft, I don't know why people keep saying I don't know how to play. I am winning on emperor about half the time. My latest will be a cultural with Pericles (300 turns away).
Your off topic as this is a UB/UU thread. Looks like you could do culture here. Albeit you are throwing away 220 a turn on unit costs. Frigates are no good against destroyers. I doubt you will even use the galleons. You have spammed cathedrals. If you used the culture slider and ran wealth you could shave off 50-60+ turns. Culture in your legendary cities.
Your still way behind in tech here considering you are not even using culture slider. Other Ai have been a bit nerfed by high sea level. Albeit you have taken down 2-3 AI here. Your games could still be greatly improved.No great wall or mids is a start. Looks like you are still teching archery early on. As Lymond has suggested previously this is a waste of time and not needed.
Maybe you are winning games. Just the games you post are 1800AD-1970AD.
Your still way behind in tech here considering you are not even using culture slider. Other Ai have been a bit nerfed by high sea level. Albeit you have taken down 2-3 AI here. Your games could still be greatly improved.No great wall or mids is a start. Looks like you are still teching archery early on. As Lymond has suggested previously this is a waste of time and not needed.
Maybe you are winning games. Just the games you post are 1800AD-1970AD.
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Actually, Gumbo, this is his thread to ask or discuss whatever he wishes as opposed to a new post every time (see his closed thread from yesterday)
ArchGhost
Prince
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Other than the obvious good UBs/UUs there are a couple that are nice enough to maybe pick up
-Hammams are a really good building for the cost and tech position, one of the things that makes the pretty good ottomans even better.
-Ballcourts add a good chunk of happiness which is just perfect for the "heavily whipping an army" stage of the game
-Ziggurats are a decent part of Giggles' kit. Combining CRE landgrabbing + cheap Libraries and going for Ziggurats gives economic support.
UUs tend to be flat improvements, so as said before if the unit is decent the UU is better.
-all HA UUs
-Dog and Vulture are just better than default axes for different reasons. Dogs are resourceless which is a huge convenience factor, Vultures are better against every unit that's not another axe.
-Conqs and Cossacks. Conqs more so.
But should you dictate, always, your game plan around a UU or UB? No. Not unless it's a Quecha, which can (and is actively abused to) completely define the way a game is played out
-Hammams are a really good building for the cost and tech position, one of the things that makes the pretty good ottomans even better.
-Ballcourts add a good chunk of happiness which is just perfect for the "heavily whipping an army" stage of the game
-Ziggurats are a decent part of Giggles' kit. Combining CRE landgrabbing + cheap Libraries and going for Ziggurats gives economic support.
UUs tend to be flat improvements, so as said before if the unit is decent the UU is better.
-all HA UUs
-Dog and Vulture are just better than default axes for different reasons. Dogs are resourceless which is a huge convenience factor, Vultures are better against every unit that's not another axe.
-Conqs and Cossacks. Conqs more so.
But should you dictate, always, your game plan around a UU or UB? No. Not unless it's a Quecha, which can (and is actively abused to) completely define the way a game is played out
It seems like this might really the core issue. You seem to think you're a pretty good player, and you just want small tweaks or suggestions, right? And you might be better than some people. But please, trust us, compared to most people on this forum you're really not good at all. You've got some major problems in how you approach this game. You need to completely rethink everything. Winning on emperor with weird map settings half the time is not a sign of great skill. Try doing it with normal settings, or go up to immortal, or just try to win every time.
I'm not trying to insult you, it's just that civ4 is a very complex game, and there's a tooon to learn.
If he ran wealth in all cities. Deleted most of his units apart from a few frigates. Ran culture slider at 100%. I figure 210 or so turns. The issue might be UN will be built. In terms of Ai on small islands. They will struggle to do anything useful here.If one did declare over 210-300 turns it might be an issue.
30+ workers is too many for this stage if your not going workshop crazy.No idea why you have so many rifles/cannons.
For cultural victories you really wanted to spam great artists. That and run artists. I figure this cultural victory will be well into the 1950 or so. Pending how the years work on marathan speed.
This will be painful to click through 210 turns. Your gameplay here is costing you 90 turns on your finish date.
30+ workers is too many for this stage if your not going workshop crazy.No idea why you have so many rifles/cannons.
For cultural victories you really wanted to spam great artists. That and run artists. I figure this cultural victory will be well into the 1950 or so. Pending how the years work on marathan speed.
This will be painful to click through 210 turns. Your gameplay here is costing you 90 turns on your finish date.
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