rkade8583
Realism Invictus Player
Edit: Delete this.
Probably Improved Gameplay Mod
- Thread starter PieceOfMind
- Start date
EmperorFool
Deity
This sounds like the same OOS problem that BULL is having (this mod includes BULL) when one player attacks an AI. In your game can all human players actively see the target plot where the units unload? I don't mean just revealed (can see the tile's terrain type) but can the other players see the units on the tile?
No, in our first game me and my teammates were attacked and only us and our attacker could see the tile where the units were being unloaded.
In the second scenario I was teamed with an AI and only I could actively see the tile being attacked.
In both cases 8-12 units were being unloaded.
We ended up just saving the game after the OOS (when the units were unloaded) and then creating a new game by loading our save game and continued from there. Works but kind of annoying.
Hey it's great to see someone still playing the mod.
I've been taking a break from developing this mod because of personal circumstances of late, including a computer upgrade, moving house and dealing with crappy internet providers.
Unfortunately I'm not sure if I'll have a lot of time this year to continue the development very fast. I hope the state PIG Mod is in at the moment is fairly playable.
If anyone else wants to help out (and perhaps enjoy the opportunity/privilege) with building this mod I'd more than welcome the support. Of course, with the amount of help he's given, EF is practically main developer of this mod but I'm sure he has enough on his plate in general.
AveilMil you seem to be one of the most active users of the mod so perhaps you'd like to take some role in maintaining the mod?
Since you have been playing the mod, have you any recent feedback worth mentioning?
I've been taking a break from developing this mod because of personal circumstances of late, including a computer upgrade, moving house and dealing with crappy internet providers.
Unfortunately I'm not sure if I'll have a lot of time this year to continue the development very fast. I hope the state PIG Mod is in at the moment is fairly playable.
If anyone else wants to help out (and perhaps enjoy the opportunity/privilege) with building this mod I'd more than welcome the support. Of course, with the amount of help he's given, EF is practically main developer of this mod but I'm sure he has enough on his plate in general.
AveilMil you seem to be one of the most active users of the mod so perhaps you'd like to take some role in maintaining the mod?
Since you have been playing the mod, have you any recent feedback worth mentioning?
Hey PoM,
I could take some role in maintaining the mod, but I'm not sure I have all the prerequisite knowledge required (?).
I am good at making installers however, as my professional work includes working heavily with Windows Installer (.msi install packages).
As for comments, I personally play exclusively with PIG Mod installed and can’t imagine playing Civ without it now. It’s extremely convenient having all these mods in one place and I like pretty much all the balance changes. We organized a 8 man LAN every month and so far everyone seems to like it.
The only problem is the out of synch problem I described in my previous two posts here. That should be fixed asap, other than that it’s completely playable, almost to the point where I would be extremely careful introducing any further changes (aside from updating mods included).
I could take some role in maintaining the mod, but I'm not sure I have all the prerequisite knowledge required (?).
I am good at making installers however, as my professional work includes working heavily with Windows Installer (.msi install packages).
As for comments, I personally play exclusively with PIG Mod installed and can’t imagine playing Civ without it now. It’s extremely convenient having all these mods in one place and I like pretty much all the balance changes. We organized a 8 man LAN every month and so far everyone seems to like it.
The only problem is the out of synch problem I described in my previous two posts here. That should be fixed asap, other than that it’s completely playable, almost to the point where I would be extremely careful introducing any further changes (aside from updating mods included).
Even if your role involves primarily noticing and commenting on gameplay concerns and balance problems that would be a big help. I play games pretty slowly so it's hard to get much testing done myself.
I'll see what the situation is for this mod when I get a chance to fire up all my coding tools again. Unfortunately I think I lost some of the notes I had made, by accident, so I'm mainly going to have to work with what was available in the zipped up latest version. Really that's pretty much everything important anyway.
That's really useful feedback. Since the game is nearing version 1.0 it's good to hear the changes all work well together.
The BULL issue with MP is being worked on I guess. I'm gonna trust EF or another BUG dev will find the cause there - otherwise removing BULL might be necessary and I don't want to have to do that. No pressure, EF!
The BULL issue with MP is being worked on I guess. I'm gonna trust EF or another BUG dev will find the cause there - otherwise removing BULL might be necessary and I don't want to have to do that. No pressure, EF!
I did not think BULL was included in PIG atm?
Is BUG or BULL the mod causing the problem?
Minor Annoyance
Deity
I thought I remember this OOS error being something from the non-modded game? I'm sure I've heard of it before, or maybe it was just something very much like it.
EmperorFool
Deity
BULL introduces the OOS error with attacking/unloading units. There is a drastic solution that supposedly works (removing the Safe Move feature) which I will probably just commit this weekend to be done with it. I still need someone to do some network multiplayer testing.
I’m still thinking about trying to improve the religious technology tree, which is kind of ironic since I’m a militant atheist in real life. Anyway, there’s really ever no reason to go for the religious techs early. As far as I can tell in my games getting worker techs and pushing for Civil Service is always better. Polytheism and Monotheism is never even touched in my games and the only reason I might research Meditation and Priesthood is if I want to get The Oracle or as a cheaper route towards Code of Laws. In that sense Mediation is a decent tech if you can grab Buddhism, but that’s extremely rare as I never prioritize this over early worker techs.
Unless I am a spiritual leader I never even bother to waste a turn by revolting to a newly founded religion (if I’m first to CoL for instance). The happy cap bonus is not much to scream about as by the time it becomes relevant I generally got Monarchy and Hereditary Rule or I’m going for Calendar if I have a lot of jungle happy crap resources instead.
Thirdly building Missionaries cost more than a Monument so using them as border pop tool is not that attractive either unless I need the pop really really quick. Not to mention that you are required to build Monasteries to even build them, unless you have Organized Religion of course, which I never do because I never have researched Monotheism. Also, the civic is high upkeep, which in my opinion quite quickly starts to negate the building bonus effect (at least in multiplayer).
What I hate is religion spread via trade routes; it’s useless because it’s not reliable. I can’t rely on a city in my network getting the religion onetime so that I can skip the Monument. Then I’ll build a Monument in the city anyway and if the religion spreads I really won’t care much about the culture bonus at that point.
Perhaps a minor positive change would be to lower the hammer cost of Missionaries to 30 hammers (equal to that of Monument).
Further Missionary change suggestion. Remove the prerequisite Monastery building requirement IF you have the Holy City in your empire. Then change the Civic Organized Religion: Missionary production speed is increased by 50%. This means that getting a religious tech first has a bigger benefit.
Another change I was thinking about was to grant Priest Specialists a 3 wealth generation bonus if the city where the Priest is working has the State Religion. 3 Wealth is actually significant and would perhaps enable a Priest boosted economy. Not sure this is easy to add though. (Can’t run unlimited Priests even with Caste so don’t think it should be too powerful even with Representation). Then perhaps also increase the Temple to allow you to run 2 priests instead of 1.
I also kind of wanted the “First to discover Divine Right gets a Great Prophet” change back in PIG. Which balance concerns caused this to be removed?
Now, someone please tear my ideas to shreds.
Unless I am a spiritual leader I never even bother to waste a turn by revolting to a newly founded religion (if I’m first to CoL for instance). The happy cap bonus is not much to scream about as by the time it becomes relevant I generally got Monarchy and Hereditary Rule or I’m going for Calendar if I have a lot of jungle happy crap resources instead.
Thirdly building Missionaries cost more than a Monument so using them as border pop tool is not that attractive either unless I need the pop really really quick. Not to mention that you are required to build Monasteries to even build them, unless you have Organized Religion of course, which I never do because I never have researched Monotheism. Also, the civic is high upkeep, which in my opinion quite quickly starts to negate the building bonus effect (at least in multiplayer).
What I hate is religion spread via trade routes; it’s useless because it’s not reliable. I can’t rely on a city in my network getting the religion onetime so that I can skip the Monument. Then I’ll build a Monument in the city anyway and if the religion spreads I really won’t care much about the culture bonus at that point.
Perhaps a minor positive change would be to lower the hammer cost of Missionaries to 30 hammers (equal to that of Monument).
Further Missionary change suggestion. Remove the prerequisite Monastery building requirement IF you have the Holy City in your empire. Then change the Civic Organized Religion: Missionary production speed is increased by 50%. This means that getting a religious tech first has a bigger benefit.
Another change I was thinking about was to grant Priest Specialists a 3 wealth generation bonus if the city where the Priest is working has the State Religion. 3 Wealth is actually significant and would perhaps enable a Priest boosted economy. Not sure this is easy to add though. (Can’t run unlimited Priests even with Caste so don’t think it should be too powerful even with Representation). Then perhaps also increase the Temple to allow you to run 2 priests instead of 1.
I also kind of wanted the “First to discover Divine Right gets a Great Prophet” change back in PIG. Which balance concerns caused this to be removed?
Now, someone please tear my ideas to shreds.
I agree the early religious path is relatively weak compared with the alternatives. Even in multiplayer where you can't necessarily expect to capture a holy city if you don't get one yourself, it's difficult to justify going for an early religion.
But as you sort of get at, the issue is there needs to be more incentive to go for those early religious techs. Should that incentive disappear once those techs have been researched by someone else? At high levels part of the reason one doesn't go for those techs is you can't reliably expect to get them first and then you are costing yourself a great deal by not going for the worker techs (which have a guaranteed benefit, especially if you see the resources already and are getting the tech to improve them).
Here is my suggestion, including borrowing some ideas from you:
As for the first to discover DR getting a prophet, I'll reconsider. The reason for removing it was way back before about page 5 or so. I'll put it on the to do list.
For the above changes, I'm making the assumption they're even possible.
I think the key for improving the religious early techs is not so much giving a benefit to the owner of a religion (because if you miss the religion they're useless) but giving them nice economic benefits.
I'm even thinking at the minute a nice little boost for Pacifism to keep it in line with the other civic improvements would be +1
per non-state religion.
I also have a feeling the changes above are too numerous and it would be better if fewer changes could achieve a similar net change.
I think this sounds good actually. At the moment they cost as much as a swordsman (same as an axeman as well in this mod).
But as you sort of get at, the issue is there needs to be more incentive to go for those early religious techs. Should that incentive disappear once those techs have been researched by someone else? At high levels part of the reason one doesn't go for those techs is you can't reliably expect to get them first and then you are costing yourself a great deal by not going for the worker techs (which have a guaranteed benefit, especially if you see the resources already and are getting the tech to improve them).
Here is my suggestion, including borrowing some ideas from you:
- Missionary cost 30
, down from 40. - Org Religion remains high upkeep but priest specialists get 12
instead of 11 and 50% faster production speed of cathedrals of state religion. - Theocracy: Unlimited priest specialists in cities with state religion. +100% production speed of missionaries of state religion.
- Priest specialists give +1 if city has state religion.
- Temples give +1.
- Monasteries give 1 priest slot.
As for the first to discover DR getting a prophet, I'll reconsider. The reason for removing it was way back before about page 5 or so. I'll put it on the to do list.
For the above changes, I'm making the assumption they're even possible.
I think the key for improving the religious early techs is not so much giving a benefit to the owner of a religion (because if you miss the religion they're useless) but giving them nice economic benefits.
I'm even thinking at the minute a nice little boost for Pacifism to keep it in line with the other civic improvements would be +1
per non-state religion.I also have a feeling the changes above are too numerous and it would be better if fewer changes could achieve a similar net change.
Regarding PIG i am playing it exclusively, as i am not familiar with managing mods in Civ4 myself and I don't want to get involved.
PIG was the best pick for myself, as the changes and reasons listed sound reasonable and reading the the pro's and con's for changes does give a deeper insight into the game as well.
It would have been nice if there would be an interface where each mod can be enabled / disabled / updated independantly (e.g. Better AI, BUG, BULL,....). But at the moment it is messing with a lot of files, compiling your won dll, ...
A system with auto-tools ( configure && make && make install ...), where each project brings it's own set of patch files, dependencies ... would be nice. But so far I am waiting for a new Pig with the new BAI (seems to have some significant changes to starting AI decisions), BUG and maybe BULL (since i don't MP, there is no concern about out of sync messages).
-- Divine Right (DR) --
I do preserve the first discovery of DR very weak. You get a religion, but at this stage, your neighbours will have one and you will have as well. So it's another holy city, sometimes founded in a pop 1 city ....
Gaining a GP for being the first does offer some benefit, but in return it has the downside that you usually can burn 2x Great Prophet (GP) for 1x GP + Tech discovery. And as far as I know after DR there is nothing left for your GP to discover. So you can found your Shrine or settle him in the capital.
PIG was the best pick for myself, as the changes and reasons listed sound reasonable and reading the the pro's and con's for changes does give a deeper insight into the game as well.
It would have been nice if there would be an interface where each mod can be enabled / disabled / updated independantly (e.g. Better AI, BUG, BULL,....). But at the moment it is messing with a lot of files, compiling your won dll, ...
A system with auto-tools ( configure && make && make install ...), where each project brings it's own set of patch files, dependencies ... would be nice. But so far I am waiting for a new Pig with the new BAI (seems to have some significant changes to starting AI decisions), BUG and maybe BULL (since i don't MP, there is no concern about out of sync messages).
-- Divine Right (DR) --
I do preserve the first discovery of DR very weak. You get a religion, but at this stage, your neighbours will have one and you will have as well. So it's another holy city, sometimes founded in a pop 1 city ....
Gaining a GP for being the first does offer some benefit, but in return it has the downside that you usually can burn 2x Great Prophet (GP) for 1x GP + Tech discovery. And as far as I know after DR there is nothing left for your GP to discover. So you can found your Shrine or settle him in the capital.
No, if the incentive completely dissapears unless you can get it first I think we've failed as "game designers"
There should be an incentive to go for religious techs even after they have already been researched, just that there should be an extra benefit of getting them first (obviously).Here is my suggestion, including borrowing some ideas from you:
- Missionary cost 30
- Org Religion remains high upkeep but priest specialists get 1
- Theocracy: Unlimited priest specialists in cities with state religion. +100% production speed of missionaries of state religion.
- Priest specialists give +1
- Temples give +1
- Monasteries give 1 priest slot.
1. Agreed.
2. I'm sceptical here because the 25% building production increase is pretty much the trademark of OR. Instead of removing it completely I think we should just adjust it (I assume you meant to remove it in your change suggestion). Maybe I'm being sentimental here...
3. Now while I could almost use the same reasoning for this (loss of EXP per unit) as for #2 I really think this sounds interresting. Unlimited improved specialists with religion, maybe pushing for Theology can with this setup produce a strong early economy? Very interresting. Lets discuss this further, hopefully we can get some additional input from someone else.
4. Temples give +1 wealth sounds good. Always thought this building was weak compared to how expensive it is. You really only build them if you're going for culture victory.
5. Sounds OK.
I completely agree.
I'm even thinking at the minute a nice little boost for Pacifism to keep it in line with the other civic improvements would be +1
I disagree. Pacifism is often used in my games when I run the occasional golden age to get another great scientist or two. It is a useful civic but very situational. I never stay in Pacifism for a great length of time due to the very high costs associated with it (in Multiplayer you can't sit with just a few military units around). Personally I think this civic is fine. I almost always get early access to it as well as you can easily bulb Philosophy with a GS.
Less is more
I searched the thread and found this point by Minor Annoyance.
On oneside I feel there should be a reward for being first to DR, because you are probably sacreficing other techs (might be important) to get it first. The Religion is almost useless in my opinion and not much of a reward and the wonder (TSM) is expensive hammer wise and only offers a big benefit if you have a lot of state religious buildings (though with these other changes it could become a valid wonder to build).
On the other side he has a point that there should be an incentive to research it even after someone has got it. Because really, if someone gets it first there's probably NO incentive to ever research it. Versailles is a silly wonder considering I could just get Forbidden Palace.
Not sure if it's possible to balance both these aspects however.
Here's a revised suggestion-set, based upon both our previous ideas.
Basic Priest: 1 1
Pathetic really, not only is Great Prophet quite possibly the worst great person (and you generally never want to run a priest because you contaminate your GP Pool (this is not an insignificant point)) the standard Priest is also really weak. With Angkor Wat the priest is slightly improved to 2 1, but thats still pretty much crap.
Priest change suggestions:
This provides a 2 3 priest and a strong 3 3 priest with Angkor Wat. Now, someone might complain that hey! This means the priest is much stronger than the merchant.. Well, yes, but Merchants generate Great Merchants (which are awesome (ever mass settled GMs in a food poor production city?)) and they are also enabled by following a different technology tree which opens up additional economical benefits than just the possibility of running merchants. Also the economic boost of Priests obsolete eventually leaving the priest at 2 1.
Now on to the Civic change suggestions:
In addition to this we still have:
Now these changes indirectly boost Meditation and Polytheism as well because if you grab that early it will be easier and quicker to spread the state religion to all your cities.
Basic Priest: 1
1Pathetic really, not only is Great Prophet quite possibly the worst great person (and you generally never want to run a priest because you contaminate your GP Pool (this is not an insignificant point)) the standard Priest is also really weak. With Angkor Wat the priest is slightly improved to 2
1, but thats still pretty much crap.Priest change suggestions:
- Buff the basic Priest to 2 1
- Grant the Priest an additional 1 when Theology is researched.
- Grant the Priest an additional 1 when Divine Right is researched. This bring the Priest to a total of 2 3
- When you research Scientific Method the economic benefit provided by Theology and Divine Right becomes obsolete.
This provides a 2
3 priest and a strong 3 3 priest with Angkor Wat. Now, someone might complain that hey! This means the priest is much stronger than the merchant.. Well, yes, but Merchants generate Great Merchants (which are awesome (ever mass settled GMs in a food poor production city?)) and they are also enabled by following a different technology tree which opens up additional economical benefits than just the possibility of running merchants. Also the economic boost of Priests obsolete eventually leaving the priest at 2 1.Now on to the Civic change suggestions:
- Organized Religion: Keep it as is. Possibly reduce upkeep to medium (?).
- Theocracy: Keep it as is and add Unlimited priest specialists in cities with state religion. Possibly increase upkeep to High (?).
In addition to this we still have:
- Missionary cost down from 40 to 30
- (State Religion (?)) Monasteries provide +1 priest slot.
- (State Religion (?)) Temples provide +1
- First to discover Divine Right gets a Great Prophet. (If it is a problem remove DR from the bulb preference list).
Now these changes indirectly boost Meditation and Polytheism as well because if you grab that early it will be easier and quicker to spread the state religion to all your cities.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
I agree the early religious techs are not worth researching (mostly because at higher difficulty levels you don't stand a chance to research them before the AI), however you guys may be going overboard with the other changes IMO. A settled Great Priest isn't much worse than any other super specialist. Or even better, I'm looking at Artists and Spies.
Anyone, I tried out this mod. I got a python exception after 30 turns whenever I tried to move one of my units, a warrior. If I disable python exceptions, I can play the game just fine. Still, I figured it's worth mentioning for the record there's a problem somewhere in your code.
Anyone, I tried out this mod. I got a python exception after 30 turns whenever I tried to move one of my units, a warrior. If I disable python exceptions, I can play the game just fine. Still, I figured it's worth mentioning for the record there's a problem somewhere in your code.
