Probably Improved Gameplay Mod

[AveiMil]

I agree the early religious techs are not worth researching (mostly because at higher difficulty levels you don't stand a chance to research them before the AI), however you guys may be going overboard with the other changes IMO. A settled Great Priest isn't much worse than any other super specialist. Or even better, I'm looking at Artists and Spies.

Define overboard

Settling great persons is rarely the best option and that's not being boosted anyway.

Anyone, I tried out this mod. I got a python exception after 30 turns whenever I tried to move one of my units, a warrior. If I disable python exceptions, I can play the game just fine. Still, I figured it's worth mentioning for the record there's a problem somewhere in your code.

I've never encountered such a problem and neither has any of the players (12+) I've played on LAN with. Are you sure you are running BTS 3.19? If it's a problem with PIG I'm sure PoM can comment on the error message though.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I love google ads. This is one from the previous page:

Me a priest? Could be
Explore Catholic priesthood Get info on monks, priests, orders

Surprising, and yet not.

 

[Maniac]

Define overboard

The priest specialist becoming much more valuable than the other specialists.

Settling great persons is rarely the best option and that's not being boosted anyway.

In your previous post you justify increasing the priest specialist hammer and gold yield by saying that the Great Priest is the worst great person of them all. I don't think they are that much worse that the priest specialist yield needs to boosted for everyone. That would create the opposite problem of them being overpowered instead of hypothetically unpowered.

 

[AveiMil]

The priest specialist becoming much more valuable than the other specialists.

Yeah, for a limited time IF you have invested in the right technologies (and thus probably left others out). You'll have a hard time beelining Liberalism while going for the religious techs for instance, so it is a trade off.

In your previous post you justify increasing the priest specialist hammer and gold yield by saying that the Great Priest is the worst great person of them all. I don't think they are that much worse that the priest specialist yield needs to boosted for everyone. That would create the opposite problem of them being overpowered instead of hypothetically unpowered.

Well, I disagree. The Great Prophet is much worse. Only perhaps the Artist is worse when it comes to settling the great person but that's not even the most important aspect of a great person. Great Scientists are extremely good because of the ability to build Academy, increasing science beaker output by vastly improving your multiplier. Secondly GS's are excellent at bulbing KEY technologies, while Great Prophets are not anywhere near as usefull in that regard.

Merchants can boost your early science rate by providing a large amount of wealth early on by using trade missions and the +1 Food they provide by settling allow you to create some very interresting cities.

Artists are very situational but they can be very good in terms of an artist bomb at the right time. They are also important when pursuing a culture victory.

Great Prophets only offer golden age or a reduced settling value compared to all the others. Building the Holy City special building can be good if you actually focus on getting your religion wide spread but that rarely happens because for one the techs needed to get a Holy City are never prioritized and even when you do get them the effort is barely worth the gain.

Even with Angkor Wat I don't think you'll find any players that intentionally runs any Priest specialists in favour of any other.

 

[PieceOfMind]

1. Agreed.

2. I'm sceptical here because the 25% building production increase is pretty much the trademark of OR. Instead of removing it completely I think we should just adjust it (I assume you meant to remove it in your change suggestion). Maybe I'm being sentimental here...

3. Now while I could almost use the same reasoning for this (loss of EXP per unit) as for #2 I really think this sounds interresting. Unlimited improved specialists with religion, maybe pushing for Theology can with this setup produce a strong early economy? Very interresting. Lets discuss this further, hopefully we can get some additional input from someone else.

4. Temples give +1 wealth sounds good. Always thought this building was weak compared to how expensive it is. You really only build them if you're going for culture victory.

5. Sounds OK.

It's my fault for not making it very clear but the changes I listed, as well as all changes I ever mention in any documenation are in addition to existing features.

I didn't intend to take away the 25% bonus of Org Rel. If anything I thought the new features of Org Rel I suggested would be too many, and clutter up the civic screen for Org Rel at the very least.

Onto other things...

Regarding the basic priest, I don't think it's ok to give it 21 as default because that pretty much makes the engineer a lot weaker.

The best approach to making religious techs more attractive is not IMO making priests the best specialists around.

Regarding my suggested change to give temples +1, I actually intend that to be regardless of state religion. There should be some incentive for building non-state religion temples as well more than just +1 and +1. For 80 it's still not a fantastic investment for increasing gold income but as with most changes in the mod so far, it's better to go too little than too far.

With monasteries, I think all monasteries should provide +1 priest slot too. As with the temples, there needs to be incentive for building the non-state religion ones too. The state religion ones already enjoy the bonus from other wonders so they're still the first choice.

The priest slot on monasteries will make it easier to run a priest specialist early, making it easier to get that great prophet for a shrine up even earlier - a good reason for the change IMO. Great prophets really should be one of the first possible great people to achieve.

On that thought, a radical part of me just thought to remove one of the scientist slots from libraries. Really the library is a pretty powerful building and because it gives 2 scientists it ends up dominating everyone's early GP paths. In history, it's not as if there have been that many great scientists in the BCs. It would make it harder to get an Academy as early is possible at the moment but maybe that's a good thing?

If I were to make that change I would probably give another scientist slot to universities or maybe observatories.

Even with Angkor Wat I don't think you'll find any players that intentionally runs any Priest specialists in favour of any other.

With Angkor Wat I consider priests to be one of the strongest specialists available in terms of the yield they provide. They're even better than engineers in that situation if one assumes a great engineer is unlikely to be born (maybe we already have several other sources of GP including other specialists).

I do agree with Maniac that great prophets are very powerful when settled - one of the best for settling. Part of the reason I never use a GP to bulb is that they bulb such cheap techs for most people's tech paths. Why would I bulb Monotheism or something like that? - a huge waste.

Unfortunately adding a new ability to the great prophet is a big change for this mod so I can't really think of any good way to change the great prophet. The techs it bulbs should be the religious techs and I don't think it should have a higher yield if settled.

Also, I would add this to the Holy City building:

+1 Free Priests.

This might get a little bit annoying. The holy shrine already gives +1 great prophet point and giving it a free priest will bring it to +4. If you already have the shrine there's a good chance you don't want to generate yet another great prophet and this will make it hard to avoid. I don't think there's any problem with it allowing priest slots though. I think it already provides 2 slots doesn't it?

I agree the early religious techs are not worth researching (mostly because at higher difficulty levels you don't stand a chance to research them before the AI), however you guys may be going overboard with the other changes IMO. A settled Great Priest isn't much worse than any other super specialist. Or even better, I'm looking at Artists and Spies.

Anyone, I tried out this mod. I got a python exception after 30 turns whenever I tried to move one of my units, a warrior. If I disable python exceptions, I can play the game just fine. Still, I figured it's worth mentioning for the record there's a problem somewhere in your code.

I think I remember there being a python exception happening. Are you able to confirm your CustomAssets folder is empty? If not, does emptying it remove the problem?

In any case, can you please post the error log? I think it's called PythonErr isn't it? EF could confirm that.

 

[EmperorFool]

I think it's called PythonErr isn't it? EF could confirm that.

PythonErr.log in your Logs folder, yes.

 

[Maniac]

CustomAssets is empty.

PythonErr.log also remains an empty file despite the python exceptions in-game.

I attached a save for the record, but I have a feeling no one else will have problems moving units.

To my limited understanding the line the python exception refers to is unchanged compared to vanilla Civ, and points to code in the executable file. Weird.

 

[EmperorFool]

You need to turn off Python exceptions and turn on logging to get those exceptions in the PythonErr.log file. (Maybe you can leave exceptions on, but I find them annoying in-game). See the logging instructions.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Thanks Maniac, I can't look at it til a couple days time but I'll see what happens then.

I'm surprised that there was nothing in the PythonErr.log. At least you've got a screenshot of it.

I'm sure I remember some time ago that I released a build where the game would almost crash instantly upon selecting the first unit to move but I thought it as fixed.

Naturally I am going to assume you are running the very latest version of the mod (0.81). To check, I think it's in the hover text over the flag (like with Better AI and BULL), but if I forget to change it there it should at least be in the readme.

Since PIG uses an installer, could you perhaps try a simple uninstall and re-install? If that fails, the only last thing I can think of is deleting the cache files for the game (I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how that's done, maybe you already know), but I have no idea whether there is any reason that would help.

EDIT
Try EF's tip first.

 

[AveiMil]

It's my fault for not making it very clear but the changes I listed, as well as all changes I ever mention in any documenation are in addition to existing features.

I didn't intend to take away the 25% bonus of Org Rel. If anything I thought the new features of Org Rel I suggested would be too many, and clutter up the civic screen for Org Rel at the very least.

Yep, it would be too cluttered then.

Regarding the basic priest, I don't think it's ok to give it 21 as default because that pretty much makes the engineer a lot weaker.

Oh, I so absolutely, completely AND totally disagree . The Engineer specialist is crap in terms of yield (2 for two food?) anyway but the strength of running Engineers is the chance of producing a Great Engineer who can be used not only for bulbing key techs, but can hurry wonders and found Corporations which the GP cannot. The bonus of 1 for running a Great Prophet is hardly even worth it.

The best approach to making religious techs more attractive is not IMO making priests the best specialists around.

Well, if you don't improve Priests then enabling Theocracy to run unlimited Priest specialists is a waste and I really liked that idea. There's no way I would bother pop a Priest early or mid-game just to get the Shrine. I'd rather have a GS, GM or a GE.

My idea involves the ability to run a strong Priest economy, provided you have the right techs, for a limited time (obsolete at Scientific Method). I take it you did not like that concept then?

Regarding my suggested change to give temples +1, I actually intend that to be regardless of state religion. There should be some incentive for building non-state religion temples as well more than just +1 and +1. For 80 it's still not a fantastic investment for increasing gold income but as with most changes in the mod so far, it's better to go too little than too far.

That's fine.

With monasteries, I think all monasteries should provide +1 priest slot too. As with the temples, there needs to be incentive for building the non-state religion ones too. The state religion ones already enjoy the bonus from other wonders so they're still the first choice.

The priest slot on monasteries will make it easier to run a priest specialist early, making it easier to get that great prophet for a shrine up even earlier - a good reason for the change IMO. Great prophets really should be one of the first possible great people to achieve.

It really does not matter much unless the Priest is improved, there's more or less no scenarios where you'd want to run a few Priests from the slots granted by Monastaries anyway.

Shrine is not of much use early. Might become strong late-game coupled with Wall Street NW but going for a GP early is really not a priority.

On that thought, a radical part of me just thought to remove one of the scientist slots from libraries. Really the library is a pretty powerful building and because it gives 2 scientists it ends up dominating everyone's early GP paths. In history, it's not as if there have been that many great scientists in the BCs. It would make it harder to get an Academy as early is possible at the moment but maybe that's a good thing?

If I were to make that change I would probably give another scientist slot to universities or maybe observatories.

Makes sense but NO! Running two scientists from Library early is too much apart of Civ4 core strategy. Don't tinker with this one.

With Angkor Wat I consider priests to be one of the strongest specialists available in terms of the yield they provide. They're even better than engineers in that situation if one assumes a great engineer is unlikely to be born (maybe we already have several other sources of GP including other specialists).

That is rubbish. Getting 2 and 1 for two food is much worse than running a grassland-hill mine. Specialists are rarely run for the yield they provide until you get to representation they loose out to pretty much all improved BFC tiles.

The great thing about running Scientists is that you produce a GS. The 3 is worse than a riverside hamlet.

Merchants are sometimes used early for the yield they provide; to help your economy from collapsing if you expand a lot early. Great Merchants are also awsome for the 1 they provide when settled.

As I see it, the Priest specialist must be improved greatly for it to be worthwhile running them. Having very strong Priests for a limited time should really improve gameplay and make new builds and tech paths interresting.

I do agree with Maniac that great prophets are very powerful when settled - one of the best for settling. Part of the reason I never use a GP to bulb is that they bulb such cheap techs for most people's tech paths. Why would I bulb Monotheism or something like that? - a huge waste.

Unfortunately adding a new ability to the great prophet is a big change for this mod so I can't really think of any good way to change the great prophet. The techs it bulbs should be the religious techs and I don't think it should have a higher yield if settled.

There's no need to change the Great Prophet if we just improve the Priest (at least for a limited time period). Then it becomes a trade off, work a strong priest and risk getting a crap great person?

Improving the Priest DOES not increase the settling value for Great Prophets.

This might get a little bit annoying. The holy shrine already gives +1 great prophet point and giving it a free priest will bring it to +4. If you already have the shrine there's a good chance you don't want to generate yet another great prophet and this will make it hard to avoid. I don't think there's any problem with it allowing priest slots though. I think it already provides 2 slots doesn't it?

Granted, this might be a little annoying. I'd like to introduce a change where the Shrine produce an instant reward, however.

 

[PieceOfMind]

@AveiMil,

I'm out of town for the weekend so I might wait til I can fire up the game again before I muse over more balance changes. I'm almost thinking about making a separate thread for some of these sorts of discussions as this thread is filling up fairly fast.

Don't lose faith over the religion,tech changes etc. I'd imagine that with the next update there will be several related changes and it will require some slightly more-thorough-than-usual playtesting from people such as yourself before being accepted as finalised.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Thought I'd just throw this out there...

This is actually a pretty old quote now, and I chose not to cut it off early so not all of it is relevant, but I think it's valuable advice to keep in mind. It's a strong part of the reason I decided to start making this mod.

http://www.designer-notes.com/?cat=11

2. Too much stuff

The temptation to pile extra units and buildings and whatnot onto to an already complete design is strong. Indeed, I have seen many developers describe games as simply a collection of stuff (“18 Weapons! 68 Monsters! 29 Levels!&#8221 This approach is wrong-headed. A game design is a collection of interesting decisions, and the “stuff” in the game is there not just to fill space but to let you execute decisions. Games can provide too few options for the player but – more commonly – games provide too many. How many is just right? Obviously, there is no magic number, but it is possible to come up with a good rule-of-thumb for how many different options a player can keep in his or her mind before everything turns to mush. Blizzard uses the number 12 to make sure their RTS’s don’t get too complex. StarCraft averaged 12 units per side. So did WarCraft 3 (not counting Heroes). And you can bet that StarCraft 2 is going to be in that neighborhood as well. In fact, Blizzard has already announced that, for the sequel, they will be removing some of the old units to make room for the new ones. Players must be able to mentally track their in-game options at one time, and putting too many choices on the table makes it impossible to understand the possibility space.

 

[Maniac]

I downloaded PIG two days ago or so => latest version.

I've attached the log as requested. The only line that didn't show up in the python exception is:

ERR: Python function forceScreenRedraw failed, module CvScreensInterface

When I try to move unit to a plot, it gives this error. An additional piece of information: if after that I simply hover my mouse on the plot I tried to move to, I get the same error. I don't even need to move the unit then anymore.

 

[AveiMil]

PoM, I'll wait for you to get back to me in regards to the balance changes.

Do you try to focus on making changes that are possible without editing code? I mean changes that only require editing the .xml files? I did some tinkering with the .xml files and much of this ain't possible with just editing the .xml files. For instance you cannot give only the Priest specialist a commerce bonus when running a spesific civic. You can only apply the bonus to all specialists.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Yes I'm aware much of the proposed changes are not just XML modifications. It's always handy if modifications can be achieved through XML only or even XML with a bit of Python or a bit of C++ but if a change is worth doing then I'll do my best figuring out how to make it work (usually this means phungus or EF or someone coming to the rescue telling me what is or isn't possible/ worth doing).

 

[AveiMil]

Another issue I figured I'd bring up is the Great Wall.

From a multiplayer standpoint (can't comment much about single player, never build this GW in SP) the Great Wall is extremely powerful compared to its cost (150). The main reason for this is that the Great Spy is such a good great person. Infiltrate your opponent(s) and this will grant you free sight of all their explored cities. This is massive in multiplayer. The Pyramids are 500 I was wondering if a 150-250 cost increase for the Great Wall was justified?

Another option would be to decrease the great person spy points it generates per turn to 1 instead of 2.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Yep I can see increasing the cost of the GW being a good idea. I would prefer to avoid giving it +1 spy point as then it would be the only world wonder that doesn't provide +2.
Increasing its cost to 250 for the moment will hopefully make it a later build. That way the wall is more likely to look cooler too.

I'm going to be going over some of the above changes again now.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Proposed changes for PIG Mod v0.82:
Please post your comments of support or disapproval of any changes you care to talk about.

Proposed updates of incorporated mods:
Not updating BBAI to v0.83 yet because it has a CTD bug in it waiting to be fixed
Update BUG
Not including BULL just yet.
Unofficial patch version 1.40
Global Warming mod version 1.10

Drill promotions:
After playing TC01's Final Frontier Plus mod I've noticed the promotions that are equivalent to drill seem to be well balanced. There are 3 first strike promotions, each that give +1 first strike and 10% less collateral damage.
In BtS, with the four drill promotions a unit has ~3.5 first strikes. I propose changing every one of the drill promos to exactly 1 first strike. This will be a slight boost especially to Protective civs. It is a slight nerf of Drill IV but I believe that once you already have a unit specialised all the way to drill 3, the extra first strike available with drill 4 is still worth it and it also opens up commando. For PRO civs it will be possible to get Commando at 17xp.

I'm pretty sure someone suggested this method way earlier in the thread so I apologise for not having gone with it earlier.

Also note the 20% collateral reductions for d2, d3 and d4 and the +10% vs. mounted for d4 are left unchanged.

Early religious techs, buildings etc.
Proposed changes: (note everything I suggest is in addition to existing features unless stated otherwise)
Temples: cost reduced to 60 from 80 and priest slots changed from 1 to 2.
Monastery: +15% instead of +10%.
Organized Religion: Medium Upkeep instead of High.
Theocracy: Unlimited priest specialists.
Priest specialist: Now gives 12 instead of 11.
Divine Right: +1 for priests.
Missionaries: Cost reduced from 40 to 30.

The monastery is probably the biggest change and I am wanting to get some opinions on it. It should provide a good alternative to going with the library. The library is still a stronger build for science mainly because of its scientist slots.
Multiple monasteries can be built, each giving the bonus so it might be possible to squash a lot of religions in your capital and go crazy with the monasteries. I don't see why this would be too much different from what was possible before though. Supposing you manage 3 monasteries in your cap for example, we're talking a 15% bigger multiplier than in BtS. This is still fairly modest but decent enough that multiple monasteries may well be worth your while.

Colosseum:
If temples are reduced to 60, then I think colosseums should be boosted a little. I suggest changing their melee bonus from +1xp to +2xp.

Subs:
I suggest giving both submarines and attack submarines +1 first strike chance.
Honestly I'd rather someone make a better suggestion because I'm kinda getting sick of adding first strikes to units to make them a bit better. I could change their base strengths instead... Any suggestions?

Battleships:
Require Artillery technology.

Grenadiers:
I suggest changing them from base 12 to base 13 strength and increasing cost from 100 to 105

Machine Guns:
Cost increased from 125 to 130. Otherwise I make the grenadier->MG upgrade path cheaper.

Explorers:
Give them the ability to attack. Reduce strength to 3, give them +50% bonus against barbs. (they're not likely to ever encounter animals I don't think.)
This will finally let you do something about those barb huts in the new world that are guarded by barbs.
I can't think of any balance problems off the top of my head, that would be a result of this change. Let me know if you can think of any.
This is basically the suggestion JujuLautre made a couple months ago.

Great Wall:
Cost increased from 150 to 250. This may be increased later to 300 depending on feedback.

Environmentalism:
+2 from Recycling Centre.

Flood plains
Flood plains are not removed when a city is built on them.
This one appears to already be in the mod and I didn't mention it. Can anyone confirm this in their game?

More modcomps:

Route Air Bombing
I like the look of this one and it looks like the AI's handling of it has been looked after enough to qualify for merging into PIG.

Obtain gold on disband if the AI knows how to do it.

 

[AveiMil]

Please post your comments of support or disapproval of any changes you care to talk about.

Drill promotions:
Stuff….

I don’t have any objections here, not sure I understand what kind of change this will have on game play though. It is rare that I use the Drill tree anyway.

Early religious techs, buildings etc.
Proposed changes: (note everything I suggest is in addition to existing features unless stated otherwise)
Temples: cost reduced to 60 from 80 and priest slots changed from 1 to 2.
Monastery: +15% instead of +10%.
Organized Religion: Medium Upkeep instead of High.
Theocracy: Unlimited priest specialists.
Priest specialist: Now gives 12 instead of 11.
Divine Right: +1 for priests.
Missionaries: Cost reduced from 40 to 30.

The monastery is probably the biggest change and I am wanting to get some opinions on it. It should provide a good alternative to going with the library. The library is still a stronger build for science mainly because of its scientist slots.
Multiple monasteries can be built, each giving the bonus so it might be possible to squash a lot of religions in your capital and go crazy with the monasteries. I don't see why this would be too much different from what was possible before though. Supposing you manage 3 monasteries in your cap for example, we're talking a 15% bigger multiplier than in BtS. This is still fairly modest but decent enough that multiple monasteries may well be worth your while.

The Temple and Monastery changes are interesting, but I don’t think they boost the religious tech path by much, however. Both these buildings are easily attainable by trading or researching the cheap early religious techs (Meditation and Priesthood).

The monastery change of +15% science instead of +10% is, to be blunt, irrelevant. You could change the monastery to offer +30% science and the Library would still be better because the library’s main function early is not to serve as a multiplier but to enable you to run early scientists to get a GS. By boosting the Monastery as such you don’t really boost the Religious tech path because Meditation and Priesthood are both often researched to get to Monarchy and or Code of Laws quickly.

Also, Monasteries offer no synergy with Organized Religion, because you really don’t want to have to bother building Monasteries with OR. That’s why I suggest removing the Monastery requirement buff from OR and adding a 50% production speed increase on Missionaries instead.

The technologies/civics/buildings/units that need to be boosted are those that follow from Polytheism->Monotheism->Theology->Divine Right. At this point in time there’s no reason to go for this branch.

The most interesting change I would say is the “Unlimited priest specialists” for running Theocracy. But for this to be interesting the Priest needs to be much, much stronger and I don’t think 1 additional is worth running a single Priest.

What does running Priests accomplish? They produce the worst Great Person in the game and they increase the Great Person Pool cap (cost) for your next Great Person and in the game’s current state you give away a lot by not generating at least two great scientists by 500 AD. Bureaucracy capital with Academy and or bulbing Philosophy to snag Liberalism is so powerful that running Priests (and thus eliminate your ability to generate any great scientists the first 150 turns at least) needs to have a different kind of payoff.

Remember, players don’t run two scientists from the slots Library open up to just get the 3 science beakers they generate. That’s a very poor return for 2.

That’s why my original suggestion included boosting the Priest by a lot when researching the religious techs and adding in a Obsolete effect (so that Merchants and other specialists become once again more relevant later in the game) when Scientific Method is researched.

Basically running scientists is great because you generate Great Scientists. For Priests the effect should rather be: running Priests is great because they produce a lot of yield (return) for the 2 they consume. The Great Prophet is just a minor additional bonus.

To run such strong Priests you need the appropriate techs and thus you are probably delaying your Bureaucracy capital setup with Academy. If you don’t go for the religious techs early the high yield priests loose some of their advantage because the bonus they get from Theology and Divine Right obsolete at Scientific Method. While if you get them early you can run an interesting Priest setup for quite some turns.

My suggestion is still:

Standard Priest: 2 and 1
Theology Priest: 2 and 2
Divine Right Priest: 2 and 3

Though this works fine as well:

Standard Priest: 1 and 2
Theology Priest: 1 and 3
Divine Right Priest: 1 and 4

If you’re worried that the Standard Priest with 2 hammers is better than a Engineer I don’t see any big problems with boosting the Engineer to 3 hammers.

I also want the Great Prophet reward by being first to research Divine Right back. Perhaps simply remove Divine Right from the bulb preference list of GP’s if that’s a problem.

Colosseum:
If temples are reduced to 60, then I think colosseums should be boosted a little. I suggest changing their melee bonus from +1xp to +2xp.

I don’t mind this change, might make Colosseums slightly more attractive (they’re rarely built).

*skipping late game units changes because I rarely play after turn 250*

Grenadiers:
I suggest changing them from base 12 to base 13 strength and increasing cost from 100 to 105

Why? You can get these without going for Rifling first, I don’t see why you should boost them.

Machine Guns:
Cost increased from 125 to 130. Otherwise I make the grenadier->MG upgrade path cheaper.

Okay.

Explorers:
Give them the ability to attack. Reduce strength to 3, give them +50% bonus against barbs. (they're not likely to ever encounter animals I don't think.)
This will finally let you do something about those barb huts in the new world that are guarded by barbs.
I can't think of any balance problems off the top of my head, that would be a result of this change. Let me know if you can think of any.
This is basically the suggestion JujuLautre made a couple months ago.

Don’t think I like this change but I don’t feel strongly about it. I actually used about 10 Explorers in our previous multiplayer game. I stacked up like 4-5 at the time and sent them off to explore. They annoying my opponents quite a bit, with the upgrades they get + barracks they all both had 2x Hills and woodsman upgrades.

Great Wall:
Cost increased from 150 to 250. This may be increased later to 300 depending on feedback.

I was thinking at least a 100% increase to 300  Only drawback by making this more expensive is that it means that stone is even more valuable early.

Flood plains
Flood plains are not removed when a city is built on them.
This one appears to already be in the mod and I didn't mention it. Can anyone confirm this in their game?

Not removed? Should it be removed?

 

[AveiMil]

Okay, I noticed now that you suggested:

Priest after Divine Right and running Theocracy: 1 3

That's better (I did not catch that the first time I read it) but it's still not good enough for me to consider running a lot of priests. Merchants are about as good and they give me a chance to generate a GM (which is far superior to the GP). It's not even remotely close to worth it to go sacrifice GS generation for such a priest.

In fact I wonder if even the Priest I have suggested is good enough for it to be worth it.