PROD Shadow - Sirian's TDG "Alternate Timelines"

[hotrod0823]

Well Ok maybe selling contact with France to Germany wasn't too smart but I honestly thought my logic was right on. After reading these critiques I am not so sure. Keeping France sequestered should have been more of a priorety. Luckily Germany and France are both weak and broke and this shouldn't matter after Maps are discovered and Anyway this is a training game after all.

Hotrod

 

[Sirian]

1700BC: You can't postpone dotmapping like this. If you can't see a good location, you need to look harder. Postponing this decision is unless you have a specific event in doubt such as fog to bust with a scout or a military encounter, which would affect your decision.

Forget the per-turn deficit unless you're in danger of going broke and having buildings sold off. Slowing research is not good, when the cash being gained is just going to sit in the treasury. If you NEED cash later, slow research then. If it can wait, it should wait. Building up the treasury offers no immediate benefits, while getting research done sooner does.

1625BC: Going to let me be the judge? I judge here. Why? Because if you move to the tile 1 NW onto the desert, you'd STILL have immediate access to the cows. The cultural borders would fill in. Check Rowain's shadow game to see what I mean, or check the RBD13 game for details about how cultural borders "fill in" when there's one tile of room between borders.

Getting immediate access to the cows was a good idea, just that you misunderstood that you'd have that anyway at the better location with four tiles less of overlap.

Your whole settlement scheme this turn leaves something to be desired, and that's the whole reason why you're going to end up with the lowest grade from this round. Effective city placement counts for more than almost anything else at this stage. There are a number of ways to do it, and even packing the cities in with lots of overlap can be an effective strategy in its own right. But you didn't make your moves with the plan in mind to crowd the cities for strategic benefit. You had other reasons, and in each case there are things you failed to consider.

If you're off to NWN soon enough and planning to drop Civ3 entirely, I'm going to miss you. You started this whole Training idea. I would hope you still enjoy this game enough to play it some, having convinced us to train you how to do so. If not, well, I'm not sure what to say. You've had some good rounds in this game, but this was definitely not among those. I should hope you're not already pre-distracted and losing interest.

1575BC: Line of Irrigation, but what happened? In your save game, the worker there is mining, not irrigating. I wondered at that.

Your Warwick location here is not good. If you still care to learn more about city placement, I urge you to grab every shadow turn from this round, study the plans and placements of the other players and my comments about each. Your Newcastle is a good spot in its own right, but bad relative to Warwick. Almost any other tile along the lake would have been better for Warwick to match up with Newcastle's position, and you can see in my game the tile I chose with no overlap.

From your comment at the start of your shadow turn about "no idea where to settle, I'll just send him north and see what turns up" it seems to me you aren't paying attention to this aspect of the game. There are a few key things to be doing to improve your results in civ. One is working/improving good tiles quickly. Another is deciding your priorities (military/growth) and then bending your whole civ to that goal, doing nothing that wastes time. The third is effective city placement. You did give it some thought, but there are a lot of things you overlooked in doing so. I suppose I need you to tell me what you want to do here. Should I press you about this point? Do you want to work on it? Or let it go?

1550BC: Your Newcastle location was decided at last minute. One of the reasons to do dotmaps ahead of time is to get your plans down on paper in front of you, so you can LOOK at the results you'll obtain and be better able to spot potential conflicts. It seems you would have been well served this round to take a screenshot and invest five to fifteen minutes in drawing up your own dotmap, both for planning and just as practice in getting used to thinking about cities and coordinating your city locations with one another. Settlement is not just about good city locations, it's also about making best total use of the land and making compromises on individual city locations that result in the best total outcome for the whole civ once all the locations are added up. There are layers to that, and you may not care to go far with it, but you should try to look ahead, to plan ahead, rather than wait until you have units in place to make decisions.

As for the French, you did OK considering the point at which you made contact. It was good to get something out of the contact when it was going to be made anyway. On the other hand, your scouting pattern appears to have been too much about local fog busting and not enough about shoreline exploration. Contrast your result to my shadow or Zot's shadow, where we have the French trapped on their peninsula and cut off from contact with the rest of the continent! The fogbusting of the interior, as it turns out, could wait, while the shoreline exploration could not. The difference is rather large, wouldn't you agree?

Also I notice that your London is one turn behind other games in terms of food. Somewhere in there, it grew briefly and you let it run on lower food for two turns.

There are some things you did this round that I liked. I liked the barracks next at York. I liked the idea of bringing irrigation down to London, even though your results didn't seem to be doing that. I liked your sending the Nottingham settler west, and the Hastings settler was heading in a good direction. You defended the homeland and your units busted camps up well enough, and there are other small details you took care of.

I hope you won't be discouraged by your grade this round.


Overall Grade: D-

count: Two. (Homeland Defense, Diplomacy)
count: Four. (City sites x3, Scouting)


- Sirian

 

[ChrTh]

Re: My Critique

Yeah, my head wasn't screwed on straight with the settling, that I easily concede.

I usually don't do settling on Desert spaces...am I wrong in this?

The worker to do the Irrigation Line was helping another do a road, then he was going to start in (I wanted them to get that road done together, hastening both workers for their respective tasks, i.e. irrigating Cow, building irrigation line, instead of favoring one over the other).


As for NWN, who knows when it's going to come out (June 20th is the most recent estimate, but far from realistic), so I'll be here for a long while (it's also a joke, I am in no way abandoning Civ--I fought hard to get my Civ-playing time, I'm not giving it up for NWN...I'll sacrifice stuff like "being at work" and "spending time with my wife" for NWN )

I think the reason the Scout didn't find the French as early as others did was because I was avoiding Barbarians, but I don't remember for sure.

Grade humbly accepted...2 out of 3 ain't bad (my last two turns were relatively good)

 

[Sirian]

Desert spaces are IDEAL for settling. You get two food out of any tile you settle, doesn't matter if its desert, hill, or flood plain with wheat on it. Two food.

This is a minor factor in settling: you may want to improve total food potential by redeeming a desert, hill, or tundra tile, or a plains vs a grassland, IF all else is equal.

The main reason to settle on the desert tile in that situation is position, though. Less overlap, trading overlap for otherwise wasted tiles near Berlin, still on fresh water. Wouldn't make a lot of difference early but would make some later.

Civ1 and Civ2, you got whatever starting food the tile had, including zero for settling on mountains. Civ3, 2 food no matter where you settle, and can't settle on mountains.


- Sirian

 

[hotrod0823]

I have finished through 1250BC and will post results tommorrow.

Hotrod

 

[Zot]

0)1500BC - Coventry changes to a temple to help push back the Babylonian advance. Since Bizzi already knows about Joan, I also sell that knowledge to Mao, to drain his treasury of its 25 gold. I also give Hammi ROP, to make him polite. With our 122 gold, we can afford to run 100% science, which costs us -3 gold per turn.

Between turns - London's culture expands.

1)1475BC - Misc Movement. Settler east of Hastings moves SE to settle grassland maybe down near the gems. The southern settler found Warwick right where he is. This should hopefully be a good spot to block Hammi from going further west. Starts a spear.

Between turns - Forest is done being chopped down near Nottingham. Barb horseman appears North of Hastings! With all these barbs around, York starts another spear.

2)1450BC - Misc Movement. Game north of Nottingham is now being mined. Joan build Rheims near the isthmus, but our scout should be able to blockade it soon, and a warrior is on the way to help. York spear goes east to help Hastings, hopefully not too late.

Between turns - London builds a settler, starts a spear. Hastings finishes a warrior, starts a spear, which may be changed to a warrior, if needed sooner. Canterbury finishes a spear, starts a worker, which will finish the same turn that Canterbury expands.

3)1425BC - Canterbury's spear heads south to Warwick to protect the outpost. London's settler heads SE to settler north of Nineveh. This will get the fish and will push back on Babylonian advancement. We will need to pay attention to culture in that new city, but since Nineveh has not expanded I don't think it will be a problem. London also sends its warrior. Hasting's warrior easy kills the barb warrior outside town. Spear takes out horseman only taking one hp damage. Because I moved the warrior out of Hastings to kill the barb, Hastings is unhappy. For this one turn only, I change the hill tile to an entertainer. It would have taken 20% luxury to do the same, and would have set back liturature by 2 turns (this obviously is not the case, since I would only need to do it for one turn). I still feel that for one turn only it is better to do the entertainer. Weed? Possibly.

Between turns - barb galley shows up on the east coast!

4)1400BC - Mine finished north of Hastings starts paving. Spear spots barb encampment on coast on floodplain. Warrior goes back to Hastings, and tile are adjusted. Scout west of warwick spots pick warrior...damn he made it past the choakpoint, before I closed it off. Newcastle is founded between Nottingham and Moscow, starts a spear for now. Hammi took out barb camp south of Hastings, because he has an injured warrior ontop of the spot where there used to be a barb camp. Warrior north of Newcastle defeats a barb warrior. Oxford founded West of Hastings, starts a spear. Sell contact with China to Babylon for his treasury (25 gold) to keep him poor.

Between turns - "Our people want to build the Forbidden Palace! Maybe we should..."

5)1375BC - Misc Movement.

Between Turns - Warrior north of Newcastle is attacked and defeats a barb horseman from the camp he will try to cleanup this turn. York finishes spear, starts another. Nottingham finishes spear, starts settler.

6)1350BC - Barb camp north of Newcastle is cleaned up for 25 gold. Misc Movement. Scout west of Warwick spots a barb, which a French warrior will cleanup. The French warrior must have snuck thru the blockade before it existed.

Between turns - The French warrior finishes off the barb. The French start building the Pyramids.

7)1325BC - Misc Movement. Warrior north of Hastings cleans up barb camp for 25 gold. With the area clean again, Hastings switchs to settler. York switches to a worker, because we need more workers to improve our lands. Cleanout Joan's barb cleanup money by giving her contact with Babylon, which she could get soon anyway.

Between turns - Russia founds Smolensk, south of Moscow near the isthmus to France. York finishes worker and starts another. Canterbury finishes worker, starts granary which is slated to finish in 30, while expanding to size two will happen in 20.

8)1300BC - Misc Movement. Liverpool is founded SE of London and north of Nineveh, which is still minumal size. Liverpool starts on a worker to clear some jungle. A temple should be soon if not next. Adjust science to 90% and still get literature next turn.

Between turns - We finish discovering literature, and we start code of law so that we can build courthouses and get us one step closer to Republic. Adjusting science to 100% does not gain us anything, so I leave it at 90%. London finishes a spear and starts a worker. The spear will head to Liverpool to protect our border and let the warrior wander around to the east with the gems.

9)1275BC - Misc Movement.

Between Turns - York finishes worker, starts another.

10)1250BC - Misc Movement. Now 100% science helps. No one has anything to trade.
prod-shadow-zot-1250bc.zip

 

[hotrod0823]

I typed my report early and it was lost because of the forums upgrade. I didn't know it was going on so here goes again .

1500 BC (0): Change Coventry to a temple - concerned about flip to culture nation of the Babs. Give Babs ROP they are now polite.
change Nottingham to settler

1475 BC (1): Bringing wayward warrior home from the North land. Scout in France sent to the choke point. Nott. settler moves west to the position on the lake by the jungle. Southern settler moves SE to future location of the next city. - ON River with cattle and gold within reach after the first cultural expansion.

1450 BC (2): York builds spear (vet.) and starts another, city is now at 4.
Nottingham worker finished clearing forest begins irrigation, MM to work the mine and grow in 3 settler is ready in 8.
Found Warwick in the south, start a worker to begin working the lands , warriors will be in the city shortly for protection. Growth in 10, worker in 10. After the worker begin a temple. Not sure if the worker will be in vain because any improved tiles may only be lost to corruption, perhaps the temple should come first?

London grows and York must once again give mines tile back, workers move to the near by forest still 2 shield but only 1 food. York will get it back soon as the settler in London is almost completed.

1425 BC (3): London builds settler starts spearman, like deja vu, settler, spear, settler spear.
Cantebury starts temple after spear training is complete.
London settler begins long trek through the Mountains towar the clearing and the gems.

1400 BC (4): Hastings trains a warrior, trade the spear protecting the worker with the warrior, just in time too, the barbs continue to approach from the North - the wayward warrior continues long journey home oblivious to what he is missing!
Fortify warrior in Warwick.
MM Nottingham to grow in 1 settler in 4. MM Hastings to grow in 6 settler in 9. York gest mine tile back one turn to late .

1375 BC (5): Build Oxford on coast near the gems, start a warrior. MM Nottingham again to grow to 4 in 4, and build a settler in 4. (Is all the MM necessary, and did I do it correctly?) Is a settler and growth in the same turn better than growth without the settler or vice versa? I was able to delay settler production by 1 turn to enable growth from 3 to 4, if the city was set back to 1 by building the settler 1 turn earlier is that better then setting the city only back to 2 but delaying the settler by 1 turn?

Send London warrior out to the Mountains for protection of the settler.

1350 BC (6): York makes spear starts another.
Nottingham worker completes irrigation starts on roads, NE warrior defeats the barb horses, no promotion but losses 1 hp.

1325 BC (7): Disperse Barb camp North of Hastings +25 gold, Continue movement of the settler to the clearing in the mountains

1300 BC (8): Settler movement continues with escorts in tow. Change research to 80% to get LIT in 1 and +1 gold.

1275 BC(9): Finish LIT and struggle with the next research assignment. Start Polytheism: Here is my logic, Aqueducts, Courthouse are not needed quite yet rules out contruction and code of laws, by default philosophy is not needed yet because it is precursor to the Republic but that will not be available without the code of laws, not needed yet as stated above. A new govt. will be needed soon and now Monarchy will be sufficient show I choose Polytheism and increase research to 100% and -3 gpt.

London finishes spear starts settler, spear fortifies in London.

Nottingham finishes settler and starts another.

Barb approach Nottingham again, send warriors after them.

1250 BC(10): York finished spear and starts a library, will finish in 14, all cities currently are protected and the boost in research will help keep the tech lead.
Still ahead all civs in tech although only 2 in some cases. Now for the question: It was clearly not honorable but I in the course of checking how far ahead we were in tech and gold etc. I renegociated the peace with France and accepted 50 gold to "keep" the peace. Not honorable I know and a bit shady, I didn't know Peace was even realy negociable until I read the RBCiv rules on honorable play, It may be dastardly but is it explotive?

Set lux to 10% to prevent revolt at Hastings. still get poly in 9 with -3gpt.

Hotrod


Hotrod Shadow - 1250BC.zip

 

[ChrTh]

ChrTh's Shadow Turn

Turn 0 -- 1500 BC
I review the situation, and this time I take a strong look at my settler strategy...

Yikes! Sirian was kidding about that Southern Settler...
I get out my trusty Paint program.
If I get two more cities in the South, one would be SW of the lake W of Coventry (exactly 3 squares W of Coventry)...and one would be built directly on the Iron Deposit SW of Coventry...in that situation, Coventry, 1 and 2 would only have 3 squares overlapping....the issue is, can I get there before the Babylonians do?
Now, the Southern Settler is in a great spot...but I doubt he's going to grow anytime soon, so I want to maximize his 8 squares.
Ok, I've decided: I'm going to eschew possible cows and the river and settle on the forest 1 tile W. This is a block, plain and simple...also, there's only 1 tile of overlap, and it's a mountain. Yes, the horses don't fall in a radius, but with three cities around them, they'll be quickly incorporated.

Assuming, of course, the Babylonians don't grab the spots first...but since that probably won't happen in my turn...

Looking at the advisors, everyone's happy...-3 gpt is livable for now if it saves us turns on Tech.

We're building military...and we have a strong army compared to everybody...but apparently there are Burgundian tribes near York.

Ok, Foreign affairs. I sell Contact with the Germans for 25 Gold to the Chinese...they're practically on top of each other so that won't last much longer (in fact, he was only offering 20 Gold, I upped him to 25). Nobody else has cash, and we're technically advanced.

London is about to expand culturally...Good for it.

I stick with Lit...with a Tech advance, we won't need the GrLib, but regular Libs will help us keep that advantage.

As for the workers...I decide to cancel the jungle clearing on the dye...there needs to be the Line of Irrigation! (TM)

I change Hastings to Settler.

E Settler, is going to go to the exact same spot I planned by last turn: NW of Gems on coast; this will give him two shielded grasslands immediately, and no overlap with Hastings.

That should be it...

Turn 1 -- 1475 BC
Hey, there's a Settler W of Nottingham too...hrm, how'd I miss him. Ok, let's see...I'm going to head him towards tile directly E of horse...that'll get us Incense (eventually) and well, horses. Plus no overlap with Nottingham (Sirian: am I focusing too much on no overlap?)
Nothing much happens...

Turn 2 -- 1450 BC
York produces Spearman, orders up Worker. Dammit, I thought I cancelled that other Worker.
Warwick is built, revealing a mess o' Barbarians...uh-oh...I order up Warrior (will my nearby Warrior be too late?!?)
Worker begins Mine after clearing Forest
I change Hastings to Warrior, with the Barbarians coming at it, it's going to need it (Spearman is guarding Worker)
York is stealing one of London's squares...I change it.

Turn 3 -- 1425 BC
London produces Settler...I order up Temple, possibly as placeholder for Library.
Hastings builds Warrior, I order up Settler
Canterbury finishes Spearman, I order up Warrior.
Oh good, it looks like Babylon is going to take care of the Barbarian camp near the Gems.
London settler is going to go to spot directly S of Fish-on-lake. Minimal (jungle) overlap.
Warwick is about to be sacked...oy!

Turn 4 -- 1400 BC
Warwick was ransacked by Assyrian tribe! We lose 16 gold
Warwick was ransacked by Hittite tribe! We lose 13 gold
Ouch!
Warrior in Hastings does a great job, though.
York produces Worker, begins Spearman. Worker heads to help with Line o' Irrigation.
Babylonians cleared out Barbarian Camp...so I wonder what they'll give me their cash for ...Contact with the Germans for 25 gold.

Turn 5 -- 1375 BC
Dammit, Hastings riots. Guess they need a soldier there when they hit 3. I move the Spearman (guarding the Worker) into town to quell them (I sent the Warrior N to look for the Camp).
Someone just lost to a barbarian camp.
Newcastle built (W of Nottingham), orders up Worker (town needs help with corruption)...got there just in time, there's a Chinese settler heading that way (will probably stop short)
Oxford built (near Gems)...orders up Warrior.
Bulgars and Hittites are dispersed...+50 gold for us!


Turn 6 -- 1350 BC
Our people want to build the Forbidden Palace. Good for them.
Nottingham produces Spearman, orders up Worker.
Science finagling doesn't help...yet


Turn 7 -- 1325 BC
The French are building the Oracle.
That Chinese Settler isn't moving anywhere...
Science dropped to 90%, -1 gpt, Lit in 2


Turn 8 -- 1300 BC
York completes Spearman, orders Settler. I'm going to keep Spearman to go off with Settler.
Canterbury finishes Warrior, orders up Worker.
Liverpool is built, orders up Warrior.
Science dropped for more gold

Turn 9 -- 1275 BC
Literature is finished, I order up Code of Laws (still in my 'heading towards Republic mode)..done in 8 turns at 90% and -1 gpt (still takes 8 turns at 100%)
I decide to change London to Barracks...I want to have two soldier-producing cities; London and York can alternate between soldiers and settlers/workers.
Nottingham completes Worker, orders up Settler. I send that Worker S to irrigate square for Canterbury (stuck at 2)

I sell Contact with the Germans to the Russians for 24 Gold...no one else has cash or tech.

Turn 10 -- 1250 BC
Coventry completes Spearman, begins Worker. I send this Spearman to Liverpool.
Doh! Spot I thought was grassland is actually Forest. I chop it down.
Line of Irrigation proceeds nicely.
Tribe is vanquished, +25 gold.

Hastings is about to riot...would it be amiss of me to leave it for the next player ... raising Luxuries doesn't help, unless I go to 20% and lose a turn of Code of Laws. I do that, and I set up Hastings to build Settler asap (4 turns)


And that's it...for now.

here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-chrth-1250bc.zip

 

[Black Cursor]

1500 BC (0) The first thing to do is visit all cities to make any changes. Having a common border with Babylon means that we need to get culture going as soon as possible there as The Hammer will be building all his cheap Temples. Therefore, Coventry changes to Temple. I debate whether to change London to Temple now as well, but decide to finish the Settler first. Now seems about the right time to bring more tiles online at Nottingham, so it changes to Temple also.

With 22 and 21 turns to go on their projects, I feel this is too long and decide to task the Worker at York and the German Worker elsewhere -- I order them to stop. The York Worker heads to a forest near London and will start clearing it to speed the upcoming Temple. The German Worker moves W to start a road to Canterbury. I wake the Hastings Spearman and move him E to escort the Settler.

On the diplomatic front, everyone is broke save China so I trade Mao Contact with the Germans (they really should have met by now) for their treasury of 25g. The last Right of Passage remaining is with Babylon and although they have no cash, I expect an attitude adjustment, so I trade Right of Passage for Right of Passage. Hammurubi once Cautious, is now Polite.

-- London's borders expand, the French move a Settler, and a Burgundian warrior approaches Hastings.

1475 BC (1) The Hastings Spearman returns W to protect the Worker from the barbarian . The Warrior in the far NE heads S to locate and dispatch the Burgundian camp. The German Worker starts a road. Of the three Settlers, the westmost heads toward a plains tile close to Russia. His escort Spearman returns to Nottingham; a nearby wounded Warrior will now perform this duty. The eastmost Settler bravely heads off alone towards the gems. The Scout in the area sacrifices :suicide: himself for the cause and confirms the Goth camp is still present -- the Settler should now wait for the upcoming Warrior at Hastings. The Scout near France shadows the French settler. One wounded Warrior rests. Remaining units move.

Finally, we come to the southernmost Settler. If the neighboring nation was not Religious, let alone the Religious/Scientific Babylonians, I could possibly head SE and boldly claim one or more of the cattle in the area. Rather than risk a possible city-flip in the future and mindful that I can cover a choke-point now and be on a river, I decide to found at the the current location. Warwick starts a Worker and the nearby Warrior heads to town for garrison duty. York gives up the shared tile and takes the jungle/dyes.

-- Forest harvested with 10 shields to Nottingham; the French found Rheims, and now a Burgundian horse is also seen near Hastings! York finishes its Spearman, starts another; and... the Goths do NOT dispatch our Scout! [dance]

1450 BC (2) With a new lease on life, the Scout retreats N to watch for Goth movement out of the camp. The E Settler takes another step S. Hastings' Spear fortifies and hopes to hold against the Burgundians. Should the barbarian warrior head straight for town, the Warrior due next turn will guard against that threat. Now standing in French lands, the Scout quickly departs. York Spear heads to London to escort the Settler due next turn and London Warrior takes its place at York. Spear arrives at Nottingham. With the forest clear, the Nottingham Worker irrigates the grass/game. London Worker clears forest, and remaining units move. London takes two jungle tiles to minimize shield waste on Settler completion.

-- Russian settler pair seen, Burgundians bypass our Spear and head for the city. London finishes Settler, starts Temple. Hastings Warrior finishes just in time, and Hastings starts a Worker. Canterbury finishes Spear, starts Worker.

1425 BC (3) W Settler arrives at site. London Settler heads N and York Spear accompanies. Nottingham, Canterbury Spears fortify. Hastings Warrior fortifies and also waits for the Burgundians. E Settler takes another gingerly step. Remaining units move.

-- Hastings Warrior defends against both Burgundians and with one hp left... [punch] turns Veteran! Magyar horse seen approaching Warwick.

1400 BC (4) Newcastle founded, starts Worker, and Warrior fortifies. Hastings Worker finishes mine, starts road. Spear returns to Hastings and Veteran Warrior follows our brave E Settler. At the edge of sight, the Goth camp disappears -- looks like the Babylonians removed this threat. Our Scout confirms the veracity of this, spotting a veteran Babylonian warrior where the camp used to be. Finally, the E Settler arrives safely at the town site. Nottingham Worker completes road, moves S to start working Canterbury land. Warwick Warrior fortifies against Magyar threat. Scout spots a veteran French warrior that worked his way past the choke earlier -- Scout occupies this choke anyway. Adjusting for Hastings Governor's stupidity , we take back irrigated wheat tile. York grabs shared tile again.

-- Our people want to build the Forbidden Palace... not just yet. A Zhou warrior appears outside Nottingham. Another Russian settler pair seen.

1375 BC (5) Oxford successfully founded at a site that can access all five gem locations following border expansion. Oxford starts a Worker. Scout moves on. Canterbury Worker starts road.

-- Warwick defends against Magyar, Zhou closes. York finishes Spear, starts Worker since we need to improve more land now. Marcomanni camp with two warriors appears (Conan was always distrustful of the magic ) in front of our Scout.

1350 BC (6) Settler and Spear arrive. York Spear to Nottingham, Nottingham Spear guards Worker. Nottingham Worker finishes irrigation, starts road. Warrior in the area will deal with the Marcomanni. Hastings takes lake tile to save one shield and gain in growth turn (Worker in 1).

-- Hastings finishes Worker, starts Spear. The VERY optimistic French begin work on The Pyramids. One Marcomanni moves toward our Warrior.

1325 BC (7) Liverpool founded, starts Worker, and Spear fortifies. Spear arrives at Nottingham to guard against the Zhou. The Warrior ignores the Marcomanni warrior and sets his sights on the camp (I also want to even the odds using the terrain: hills vs. jungle). Hastings Worker moves SE to improve another hills tile. German Worker finishes road, moves W to jungle/dyes.

-- Nottingham defends against the Zhou. Babylonians take a barbarian mountain camp in the fog. Russians found Smolensk. Our Warrior beats back the Marcomanni, but is wounded. York finishes Worker, starts Spear. Canterbury finishes Worker, starts Spear.

1300 BC (8) Canterbury Worker moves SW to work hills. German Worker starts road, but will need help (complete in 18). One Nottingham Spear starts search for Zhou camp. York Worker moves to work forest. Hastings Worker starts mine. Warrior arrives at Oxford. Wounded Warrior rests in preparation for attack against Marcomanni camp. Veteran Warrior arrives at choke, Scout is free to move on. Science 80% nets 1g with Literature due in 1.

-- Literature learned, Science 100%, Code of Laws due in 9. With our increasing number of cities, we'll be needing Courthouses soon. See Babylonian Akkad foolishly founded ON a cattle tile.

1275 BC (9) Warrior attacks Marcomanni camp, wins and claims 25g. Canterbury Worker starts mine. Nottingham Worker finishes road, moves to work grass near wheat tile, closer to Newcastle. York Worker clears forest.

1250 BC (10) Nottingham Worker starts mine. Hastings Worker finishes road, moves SW to work hills. Our far NE Warrior returns to our lands, surprisingly having not yet located the Burgundian camp. One final round of diplomacy shows that the others have picked up some additional technology:

Russia-Writing, France-Mysticism, Germany-Iron Working, Babylon-Alphabet and Iron Working, and China-Mysticism.

We remain ahead on culture, "Our people are dismissive...", on science, and we have a strong military. Babylon has some cash (50g) but we dare not deal Writing or Mathematics to them now. However, we do relieve Joan of 21g in exchange for the basic technology of Pottery.

Be seeing you...

---> TBC (Teleporting Burgundian Camp?)

TBC's Shadow - 1250BC

 

[Rowain deWolf]

Report from 1500 till 1250

Military movements: Northern Warrior sent back home; Warriors used as settlement points. Scouting in the french homeland and south of russia; Third Scout used for spying on Babylon.

15000BC (IT): Spear near Hasting sent to accompany Settler; Coventry switched to temple; Nottingham switched to Settler;

Burgundian nears Hastings

1475BC (1): Spear near Hastings moves back to protect Worker against Burgundian; Settler near Notttingham, with protecting Spear sent to Dessert near Incense;
Southern Settler sent SE to settle on Coast, River and near the cow; Eastern Settler sent to Gems;

York fin Spear starts Archer;

1450BC (2): Nottingham worker fin woodchucking starts mine;

London fin Settler starts Catapult;
Hasting fin Warrior (just in time) starts Worker;
Canterbury starts Worker too (lots of Jungle to clear);

1425BC (3): Warwick founded starts temple, nearby warrior moves in for protection; London Settler sent south to settle 1SW of the lake SW of London;

Our new Warrior in Hastings gets attacked, wins and a promotion

1400BC (4): Worker between Canter and Nottingham fin road moves 1S ; Hasting worker fin Mine starts road; MM Hasting so that the new mine is used;

1375BC (5): Worker nxt to Canterbury starts road; Newcastle founded starts Worker; Oxford founded starts Warrior; Our Scout by the french see landsend;

York fin Archer starts Settler;

1350BC (6): Archer sent to search for Barb in the northern territory;

Nottingham fin Settler starts Temple;
Hastings fin Worker starts Settler;
The french start accumulating lots of stones to build something they call the Pyramids

1325BC (7) Nottingham Settler sent up to the dessert next the Lake in the Northwest of York; Hastings newly built worker moves 1SE to chop wood; Our returning Northern Warrior finds a Barbcamp;

Canterbury fin Worker starts Temple;

1300BC (8): Canterbury worker moves 1NE to clear Jungle; Literature due the next turn but no Science reductuion possible; a liitle Diplo-spying:
Russia don't know French, Germans and MAthe
France don't know Russia,Babylon, china; Pottery, wheel, Iron; Mathe;
German don't know Russia Babylon, China; Masonry, Iron and Horseback;
Babylon has never heard about French, Germans and Mathematik;
China lacks knowledge of the French, Germans, Writing and Mathe

Literature researched Philosophie started;
London fin Catapult starts Settler;

1275BC(9): Barbcamp attacked one Barb dead one Horsebarb remains;

1250BC (10): Liverpool founded stats Warrior; Burgundian encampment dispersed 25 gold earned; since the Barbcamp is gone and we have now an Archer and a Warrior securing the land i move the Spear near Hastings South to the Mountains Northeast of Babylon o tuse it together with the Scout to block Babylon-settlements;

Further Settlement plans: 1 Settler already in position (NW of York); When Hastings fin Settler he is to be sent 5S 1E of Hastings to get all remaining Gems; The Settler York is building is meant to settle 4NE 1E of York; London Settler for Settlement between Coventry and Warwick;

EDIT: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-rowain-1250BC.zip

Rowain
( now starting to read Sirian's turn )

 

[Sirian]

1475BC: Good choice with Warwick.

1425BC: Your Liverpool location is a spot I've reviewed a couple of times now, and I still don't like it. The only things it has going for it are being on the fresh water and redeeming one otherwise wasted jungle tile. The tile to the right, on the hill, which I marked with a purple dot from the 1500BC round, trades the free aqueduct and the one jungle tile for the defensive boost of the hills, the ability to gain control of all 21 native tiles, three cleared grassland, and the one jungle tile that is NOT wasted by settling on it, settling the hill instead. The fish are still in range, and one gem that would otherwise be lost is also in range. What is lost is almost all overlapped anyway. I didn't go over the difference in quite this detail before, but I did go over it. Did you consider that and still like the spot on the lake more? If so, why?

The entertainer at Hastings was fine.

1400BC: Your Oxford location is not good. Main reason is that it fails (for no good reason) to secure all those gems. Secondarily, it also has overlap with Hastings that doesn't have to be there. You grab the grass near hastings, leaving only desert and coast for the fishing village that must be built there someday. If you check the official turn and where I posted, I grabbed all but one of the gems in range, no overlap, and left two grass tiles to help out the coastal city to be built east of Hastings some day.

Resources are just about the most urgent thing in the game, and can override almost anything else. If a city has a chance to secure resources at some cost to its potential, or be stronger but not get the resources... if it's on a border or in an area where the AI may have a shot to jump in there, you simply have to put the resources as top priority and make sure to get them.

1325BC: You're training spears at Nottingham and workers at York. What's wrong with this picture? Neither of these by itself is bad, but it shows lack of coordination for overall civ needs. One urgent thing of arriving in the late ancient age is the NEED to start evaluating city strengths and coordinating projects. If you have a wonder city, it needs all the support in terms of other cities covering its need for workers or military. When you have taken time to build a barracks in one city and a granary in the other, you don't then build workers from the barracks and military from the granary. In this case, York is our military city and it needs to stay on military to meet most if not all the military needs of other cities with more food who are better suited to train workers and settlers.

The further into the game you get, the more needs your civ will have, and the more you have to choose what will be priority vs what will get less attention. At some point, you have to change gears in your earliest cities, not keep them small, since those are the only low corruption cities you will have. It almost never makes sense to strip your inner cities down to nubs. If you will note in the official turn, I made a conscious choice to shift gears. There are still lands to be grabbed, but I chose to wake workers on low priority tasks and reassign them, rather than shorten the cities by training more workers. London and Nottingham spent the whole turn on temples. This is not because more settlers aren't needed, but because the needs of the whole civ have to be kept in mind, and with Libraries now available, we need some larger cities with six or eight good tiles, growing populations, better infrastructure. Even if we were playing a military game here, we'd need barracks and to amass troops, which are the military equivalent of infrastructure.

Balance. Everything is about seeking an effective balance. If you neglect any aspect, the whole suffers, yet you also have to choose to relegate some aspects to backburner and put some up front. One thing to keep in mind: under despotism cities tend to grow at the same pace regardless of size (as long as there are good tiles available). Yet the shields and commerce are much much stronger if the city is larger. You can use the gaps between settlers to crank out basic infrastructure, or troops, and hardly skip a beat. Note that I got a temple done in there and can then crank two settlers in a row. It's a tough act with no one right answer, but you running York back down to low population without getting a granary going first, not delegating worker production to more appropriate locations, is an indication of becoming too settled into the things we've been covering on the previous rounds.

The game changes over time and you can never afford to get too settled into habits or fixed patterns. It's much better to evaluate things as you go, but part of that is also looking ahead to what you may need in ten, twenty, thirty turns. That's harder to do in an SG, but even there one of the best things you can do for the team is to set someone else up with a good deal. Trying to do too much on your own turn can be detrimental to the game.

Your Warwick choice really was good, but the Oxford one was bad. This was a mixed bag round for you, Zot. You were right that we need more workers in the interior, but you didnt' quite find a good solution to that problem. A worker out of London is fine, but either Hastings or Nottingham would be a much better choice for that than York. And finally, you have the new colonies on spearmen. They're going to take forever if you stick with that. Build units at less corrupt cities, as you can, and keep the new cities on either workers or to get that first culture improvement. Once again, a matter of uncoordinated projects.

"What can wait, should wait" was the first mantra. Now here's a new mantra for the whole class:

"Specialization increases productivity. Coordinate your projects."


Overall Grade: C+

count: Four. (Homeland defense, Diplomacy, Newcastle and Warwick locations)
count: Two. (Oxford location, lack of project coordination).


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

I spent five minutes tracking down your save file! I won't do that again. It's in your interest to follow the filenaming conventions precisely, and to take care when posting your links to the uploaded files. The former is the more urgent.

1450BC: Good location for Warwick. The worker first is a good idea. Improvements may help, roads certainly will help. Lose some time off the temple, but long term should be much better off for all those worker turns gained. Plus, as this game has shown, I was previously underestimating the value of connection to the capital. I chose the worker also. That you opted for a worker first out of every new colony really isn't something that could go wrong for any of them, considering that there are units to defend each one.

1425BC: Opted out of the worker at Canterbury? That's not a bad choice, but why let it build the spearman then? If you wanted the temple ASAP, skip the spearman too and veto right on over to the temple. Workers are so badly needed, that once you let that spear be built, it's almost a crime to pass up the coordinated chance to peel a worker off the top. The city has NO good tiles to work anywhere at the moment and needs some serious worker action before it will. As it is, you'll be sitting on zero food income until that temple is done. Either get RIGHT ON the temple or else get a worker. Letting the spearman finish then the temple would have that city lagging even more than it has to (which is a lot, since there is a lot to do to get good tiles, and other things will be higher priority for some time unless the city can train its own workers).

1375BC: No, not all of the MM you did was necessary, and it could have been done slightly better. The thing to remember is, if a city grows on a turn and pulls extra shields in from the new population, you get "free" shields. So when MM'ing at this level, you want to run the higher shields first, higher food last, since you get free higher shields on the last anyway (usually). On the other hand, does it make a difference? Not always. If you mess up by losing track, you can cause more harm than you would have been saving. MM is never a must-do, rather it is an opportunity to gain some slight advantage: save a turn or two on this project, a turn or two on growth, etc. Most urgent is to check cities after they grow, to see if the governor has assigned the new pop to a good tile. One of the best ways of spotting when the governor is off smoking some rancid vegetation is when the "turns to grow again" shows up with a bad number. Like, there's an irrigated grass tile that can grow the city in 4 turns, but the readout says 7 because you go in there and the weedhead governor has assigned the new population to an unimproved hills instead of the improved grassland. This way you can "MM" nearly as much yet cut down on MM time/energy investment by a large chunk. You can even do what Cyrene does and delegate all of that to automation if you want, but of course part of the point of the Training game is to teach you how to think it through for yourself when you wish to.

Often if you do the higher food first and the higher shields on the last turn, you'd have gotten the shields anyway and all you managed to do was spin your wheels a bit. Not always. Everything depends on the particulars of the city. Pay attention to the results, to what the city governors tend to do with new population in different situations, and you can get a feel for it.

As for settlers... you don't want to delay them just to delay them. The whole reason NOT to be on size 1 or size 2 is because of lost production from lower shields. Well... even 1 shield is better than no shields. If you delay the settler, you've lost that round of production. See? Only if you gain a lot of food in the process, to shorten regrowth to larger size, and thus save shields on future rounds, is it worth it. Generally, no, get the settler out at your best combination rate of balancing food and shields.

1275BC: Good reasoning on Polytheism, and a solid choice. The other option is to nab Code of Laws (making courthouses available) and Philo, then Republic. Not being religious, you don't want to go Monarchy-Republic-Democracy. You want to go from one to Democracy. So if Monarchy is chosen, that means a unit heavy build, more workers and more military police, and slower research. Monarchy is better for pure expansionism in that a couple of units can suffice for pacifying distant, corrupt cities. On the other hand, under Republic you can siphon off some of the income and use it to rush temples. Your choice is good and I liked that you are thinking ahead to government swap. You also did very well with overall project coordination, keeping York on the military training, a worker at each new town, and food producers on settlers. I shifted gears on my turn, to take priority off lateral expansion and put it onto building up the core cities a bit, but I like your results, too.

1250BC: Nope, you did fine with the peace renegotiation. I did one of those too, on my turn. You even got a large sum for yours, and in your shadow the contacts were much less traded around than in mine.

About the only thing I didn't like was your worker orders. You have no temple going up in Nottingham, yet workers over there dillying around with low priority projects the city won't be able to use for a long time. This, while London-York are at their limit of good food tiles. When it came to workers, you forgot the notion of "what can wait, should wait".


Overall Grade: A-

count: Six. (3x new city spots, Diplomacy, Defense, Project Coordination)
count: One. (Workers).


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

1500BC: Moving the settler off that river in the south is the ONE really bad thing you can do down there. That location is going to be corrupt, but far from hopelessly corrupt, and it's got so much grass around, it's going to have tons of good tiles. Other cities yet to come (that are not even guaranteed) can work around this one. The settler is there now and this city will be far ahead of its counterparts because it will be founded sooner. Your location would match up well with your plans, but moving off the river in this case gets a failing grade.

Yes, you are paying too much attention now to avoiding overlap. If you were to play this out, you'd quickly see the difference between being on or off the river down there.

Contrast this to your Liverpool location. There, it makes a great deal of difference as to location. The spot you chose is on the fresh water for the free aqueduct, but it gives up the three grass to the east for a bunch of overlap. See my commentary in Zot's critique for the full details on that. In the case where it mattered, you gave up the fresh water and got nothing for it. In the case where it didn't matter, you gave up too much ultimate city potential for the fresh water. Your Liverpool location is even more a problem for you than for Zot in his game, as he had a different Oxford location. For you, with your Oxford, the purple dot is the only tile in the area that could be a good one, given the land formation will all those mountains to contend with.

Everything is a balance. I realize that can give you headaches trying to factor and remember all the variables, but with practice comes a sense for it. You learn to do it and it takes less effort later on. It may even become second nature.

1475BC: Your Nottingham is a hoggy location. You could get two cities out of land you've plumped down in the middle of. This is still a good location, though. This location for its own sake is solid, and most importantly, it secures resources. You secure the horse and one incense. That's very important! The AI is rabid about pursuing resources, so especially on higher difficulties, if you postpone the resource grabbing in favor of idealistic dotmaps, you'll be shortchanged. Early bird gets the incense!

In the official turn I went for the more efficient city layout, on the premise that we should be able to secure at least one incense no matter what, but that was somewhat of a move I would not pull on Emperor or Deity. I'd get out there and grab the resources!

As for your irrigation line, you could have started it immediately west of York. You didn't have to go north to the river. You can "gain access" to water through the city itself so long as it's not on a hill. (Hills can't be irrigated). Thus, with the city on the river to start, the home tile has water access, and you can access that water from any adjacent tile. See how there is water access to the game north of Nottingham? The water trail is through the city. Same at York. In the official results, you'll see the same irrigation trail, but further progressed down toward London.

1400BC: York producing workers and settlers while Nottingham is producing spearmen? The new matra of the week is:

"Specialization increases productivity. Coordinate your projects."

This applies even to what types of military units you build. A city with 41 shields per turn is great for building cavalry, riflemen or artillery, at 80 per, but lousy for infantry at 90 per and not the best for tanks or bombers at 100 per. Let the cities with 34+ shields build tanks in three turns, or the cities with 50+ build them in two, while the city with 45+ builds the infantry. Let the city with 25 shields build tanks every four turns while the one with 27 shields builds artillery every three turns. Keep each of these cities cranking the same troop type over and over unless you have a dire shortage of something or the city shield count improves. Do you understand? You end up with more total military this way than randomly building whatever you curently want at any old city on the map.

Likewise, high food cities are best for workers and settlers where possible. The city with the granary does workers while the one with the barracks does troops while the one with the library is allowed to grow large and pull in more commerce. See?

"Specialization increases productivity. Coordinate your projects."

York producing workers and settlers while Nottingham is producing spearmen?

1375BC: Excellent location for Oxford. (See critique for Zot on why that location is good, vs others not good).

1250BC: Coventry has overlap with an enemy city and you're postponing its cultural improvement to build a troop???

"Specialization increases productivity. Coordinate your projects."

As for mistaking a forest for grass, that can happen. I made the same mistake too, except I right clicked the tile to check it. Then I knew it was a forest. You have to watch when dealing with isolated grass patches amidst lots of vegetation. Don't assume, make sure.


Overall Grade: C-

count: Three. (Oxford and Nottingham sites, London action/plans).
count: Three. (Warwick location, Coventry temple delay, uncoordinated projects).


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

1500BC: This is a really good bit of work on the inherited turn. Your reasoning about the temples all around is solid. I did the same and even went with the immediate temple at London, but waiting for one more settler is OK too. The only thing you did that I didn't, and would not, do, is to give an immediate neighbor WITH WHOM you are still competing for unclaimed lands in the area a Right of Passage. Let their attitude be sour a bit, and forego any small cash rewards, and keep them off your roads and out of your way. You can get down to RoP and bettered relations in good time. For now... those can wait. You also did well to wake those workers on the low priority jobs and get some more immediate action happening. Long term projects are good, but not when your best cities have open tiles begging for a little attention first, and are up against lacking for enough good tiles.

1450BC: You said "London takes two jungle tiles to minimize shield waste on Settler completion." Meaning what? If you swapped from bg tiles to jungle, the shields are still wasted, and on top of that you lose the commerce. Not sure what you did here, or why. Didn't sound good, though.

1425BC: Barb horse approaching Warwick? You can reduce that by posting guards on high ground nearby. You'll prevent camps from popping up, spot any attackers before they approach the city, and be able to intercept such attackers. This isn't the top priority in the early game, but it sure matters at this stage with all these endless barbarians running around. In the official turn, I headed off all barbarians before they got to the vicinity of Warwick.

1375BC: Oxford location can access all five gems, but not the coast. IF we had another coastal location that might not matter much (still matters some, since no harbor means the water tiles are diminished.) Water tiles are like "extra low-food land tiles". I learned more than ten years ago, playing Civ1, that building cities along the coast and pulling in as much of the water as you reasonably can, makes for weaker individual cities but a stronger civ. You fit more cities in, more population and more trade, total. Plus lots of cities from which to build ships. In this case we don't have a single one, not one! And the only other likely candidate is a no-shields flood plain area north of Hastings. The spot in the official game that I chose, right next to your spot, is stronger for being on the coast. Yes, it lets one gem slip away, but that purple dot from my last round map would pull that last gem in if we get a settler down there.

1300BC: Canterbury needs FOOD. Why work the hills? Need to clear some vegetation first. There's a forest in range anyway, which is just as good as a mined hill in this government. The hills can wait.

1250BC: Tech isn't the only thing we have to trade. We have RoP's, too, some Contacts, and even cancelling then renegotiating peace if need be. Your diplomacy was not strong on this round.


Overall Grade: B+

count: Five. (3x city sites, Shift toward growing core cities, superb inherited turn)
count: One. (Oxford location).


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

1475BC: Your Nottingham location is just superb. You secured the incense and horses, but redeemed a desert tile and left room to the SW for another full city. Compare this to ChrTh's location on the grassland, which hogs/crowds the area. Good work here!

All of your city sites are excellent except for Warwick. Ending up with forced overlap you can't get rid of, while right on top of an enemy capital, is just begging to lose the city to a flip. See RBD12 v2 thread for details on how nasty flips can get when you are dealing next to an enemy capital. This could be potentially very bad. At least you stayed on the river, though. Could you have forseen the overlap at your location? I did. You crowded those cattle, being greedy to secure one. Well, you got the one cattle, but bought a farmful of trouble in the bargain. Your reasoning was solid in every way but one: anticipating what the AI would do in response.


There's really not much to say about this turn. You were firing on all cylinders and it's apparent that you've grasped everything I've taught so far. Your diplomatic round was neglectful in leaving the AI's with cash burning a hole in their pockets. They're liable to trade it back and forth and pick up goodies "for free" as a result. With RoP's and contacts just lying around you should have made some deals and put the money in our pockets. That drops you from an A+ round to an A, and the Warwick misstep has so much potential to lose the city down there (and even if not, to demand lots of special attention and a high garrison) that you drop a whole other grade. (Ack). But I have nothing else to remark on from your turn. Good job.


Overall Grade: B-

count: Six. (4x city sites, Workers, major land grab).
count: Two. (Warwick location, Diplomacy).


- Sirian

 

[Rowain deWolf]

Originally posted by Sirian
All of your city sites are excellent except for Warwick. Ending up with forced overlap you can't get rid of, while right on top of an enemy capital, is just begging to lose the city to a flip. See RBD12 v2 thread for details on how nasty flips can get when you are dealing next to an enemy capital. This could be potentially very bad. At least you stayed on the river, though. Could you have forseen the overlap at your location? I did. You crowded those cattle, being greedy to secure one. Well, you got the one cattle, but bought a farmful of trouble in the bargain. Your reasoning was solid in every way but one: anticipating what the AI would do in response.

- Sirian [/B]

Sorry i have a bit to disagree here:
a) I play Regent since the day civ3 gets released(i.e 7 months) and had never much flip trouble;
b) I plan to wipe out Babylon soon; so no matter if warwick flips or not it will be on the right spot for us;

Yes i know that b is not so much to your liking but i play my Shadowturns as i would play them in a Soloplayer with full control over future turns. So i planned Warwick to be a good city for the time Babylon is a gone and perhaps a FP is down there too (preferably through a GL).

Anyway Thanks again for your teachings. they pay already off . GOTM08 is technically won and even an Emperor game i resently started looks very good

Rowain

 

[Sirian]

I play Regent since the day civ3 gets released(i.e 7 months) and had never much flip trouble

The AI's on Regent have no bonuses whatsoever. They are slow, very slow at everything. The jump to Monarch is large. They get a 20% discount on everything and these are cumulative in terms of acceleration of their growth. You're right, ON Regent level it doesn't matter, not much of anything matters in regard to the AI, as it is not difficult at all to outplay them if you follow a few simple principles like "what can wait, should wait" and "specialization increases productivity". I chose Regent level, in a sense, as a comfort zone for you players. I never expected the AI's to give us any competition. The point here is not to win the game (although that will happen). The point is not to tailor the activity to the current situation or difficulty level. The point is to build skills that will work for you with any civ on any difficulty level. If you succeed on those terms, you can figure out rather easily for yourself how to adapt those skills to particular advantage in any given game.

Even if you were going to attack Babylon, your Warwick spot doesn't match up well with the rest of the English cities. It would not serve well as an FP site for Babylonian lands if you conquered the whole civ, not being central enough. Is it really in a good spot? Well, if you raze all the Bab cities and remake the whole dot map, sure, you can fit everything to it. If not, if you capture cities, there would be both waste and overlap increased by that spot. It crowds the rest of that peninsula down there, too. (See the Bab cities below you).

I can't critique based on goals you choose that differ from the ones listed for the exercise. You can say the exercise is flawed or doesn't apply to you as is, but where would that leave you? In a certain sense, we're fools here for not grabbing the Pyramids, but in another sense we'd be fools TO grab them, since that would be putting the "optimals" for this game ahead of the principles we're here to examine.

An early military campaign (Anything in BC era, ancient or early middle age) is a strong option. In many situations, it's the only strong option, and in many more it's the strongest option. That game is all about amassing the most effective force relative to the AI's resources, and on Deity it is largely about timing. Your window of opportunity is narrow and you must seize the day.

A peaceful expansion game is a whole other ball of wax.

The two don't mix. If you do half of each, you will end succeeding at neither. Not down here on Regent. You can sit and twiddle your thumbs for a thousand years, randomly eradicate twenty percent of your units every thirty turns, and give away cities as the whim strikes you, and still be able to beat the Regent AI's. On Emperor you can still get away with a partial mix. On Deity, you are so strapped, you have to commit wholly to one path or the other or you won't make it.

A training game could be conducted for ancient warfare. This one is not that, though. If you are primarily or wholly concerned with conquest right out of the gate, that's fine. If you make those kinds of moves in your shadow turns, that's fine. There's no way I can grade them on that basis, though. In addition to your moves relating to you, they offer examples for the rest of the "class", too. I have a mission here, a structure, and I'm convinced that sticking to it offers the best value to everyone.

Making a few warlike moves in the midst of a peaceful expansion on higher difficulty IS running off the path. Even if I wanted to, I could not critique those moves on that basis. We'd have to be playing for conquest and pursuing that goal civ-wide to have a backdrop against which such a move would fit, that you could compare it one to another and see how or why it would or would not be successful. That something would work out OK on Regent may be wholly true, but isn't that beside the point?

If you get out there on Emperor, you couldn't make the same move anyway. The AI would be a lot more effective at expansion and at cultural progress, a lot more potentially threatening as a military power. Even so, you can evalute the situation as if it were happening on higher difficulty, to see what you would be up against. In a similar situation at higher level, your move would not be strong. On Regent can you say "I plan to wipe out Babylon anyway" and you can make that happen almost any time you like. So in that sense nothing matters, since you can get away with anything you please. That rationale won't serve you well later, though. You need to become concerned about city flips for any level where the AI's aren't going to be culturally crippled.

Also, in an SG, if the whole team is going one way and you pull everything in another direction FOR WHICH your civ is poorly prepared, that's going to cause problems.


- Sirian

 

[hotrod0823]

Turns complete - Will post report tomorrow

Hotrod Shadow 1000bc

The file name is correct now

 

[Rowain deWolf]

Originally posted by Sirian

. The point is to build skills that will work for you with any civ on any difficulty level. If you succeed on those terms, you can figure out rather easily for yourself how to adapt those skills to particular advantage in any given game.

- Sirian

Yes you are right with that. And as I said above you already succeeded in that task

Originally posted by Sirian
Even if you were going to attack Babylon, your Warwick spot doesn't match up well with the rest of the English cities. It would not serve well as an FP site for Babylonian lands if you conquered the whole civ, not being central enough. Is it really in a good spot? Well, if you raze all the Bab cities and remake the whole dot map, sure, you can fit everything to it. If not, if you capture cities, there would be both waste and overlap increased by that spot. It crowds the rest of that peninsula down there, too. (See the Bab cities below you).

- Sirian

This critique on the Warwick-spot I can accept and think about it. It is more accurate and more fitting than a risk-of-culture-flip argument.

Originally posted by Sirian
If you get out there on Emperor, you couldn't make the same move anyway. The AI would be a lot more effective at expansion and at cultural progress, a lot more potentially threatening as a military power.

- Sirian

Right, but on Emperor I really doubt there would have been a Settler down there.

Originally posted by Sirian
Also, in an SG, if the whole team is going one way and you pull everything in another direction FOR WHICH your civ is poorly prepared, that's going to cause problems.

- Sirian

As I stated above I play my shadow turns as if I play it Solo to see my ideas judged by you. That’s the reason why I enlisted my ideas for additional cities-locations at the end of my report. I have no intention to play my official turn in that way . And as long in those (few) SG I played I had succeeded to cooperate and play along the way the group went.

Originally posted by Sirian
A peaceful expansion game is a whole other ball of wax.

- Sirian

Yes I agree and you wouldn’t believe it I really prefer peaceful-expansion over warfare

But even as a peace-loving Civ you have no matter what difficult level be ready for war and wage it (except for an OCC) to get that last bit of advantage you need for Victory.

Anyway I very much prefer your critics on the Warwick-spot that you made now than the (in my opinion sloppy) risk-of-culture-flip one you offered before

I hope I have not offended you ‘cause I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this game. So again Thanks for your Work

Rowain

 

[hotrod0823]

1250 BC: (0) Check Diplo and all cities make no changes , not surprising

1225 BC: (1) London produces settler, moving to location btwn hills and mts on the German boarder, start spear.
Warwick finishes worker - moves onto Bonus grass land for future mines/roads - starts a temple
Nottingham spear is sent on to NewCastle for MP duty
Hastings worker set to clear jungle

1200 (2): Worker by York completes irrigation moves south to Irrigate in London tiles, worke btwn Nott. & NC moves toward NC for mines
Warwick worker start mining BGrassland

1175 (3): Hastings builds worker - heading towar Oxford stops to clear forest and then will build the roads, using the worker to get the gems on line in the future.
Mining at NC.
York MM to give back mine to London, spear still finished in 2 turns
Lux set to 10% to stop revolt in Nottingham. Lux vs. Entertainers/taxman/scientist? All can help stop localized revolts but the lux tax has a broader effect. Now I think Lux tax is the way to go because the gold is not as much a factor but later with more cities and more gold is using entertainers a better means of controlling / stopping revolts?

1150 (4): York builds spear will meet up with London settler on new city location. Starts granary (10), with all the current cities protected and future cities a few turns away building a granary will help York continue to grow even faster without loosing sight that the cities primary function is building military units for the entire civ.
New Castle worker built helps with mine, starts temple.London worker moves to help with irrigation. Can't irrigate current location yet but will after the first tile is irrigated.

1125(5): Nottingham builds temple starts settler, grow in (3) settler in (6)
Found Liverpool in North by Germany, spear is enroute start temple. Cattle will be on line soon (10 turns) after Nottingham grows, Cattle will be irrigated and roaded by Nottingham worker.
Drop Lux to 0, and reduce research to get COL in 2 (+4 gold).

1100 (6): Check Diplo - nothing of note, France and China still no contact neither have anything in trade either.
Quiet turn.

1075 (7): COL start Philosophy in 4 -5gpt, Workers start road in London and NC.

1050 (8): Warwick worker starts roads, set Lux 10%, help disorder, phil. in 4 -5 gold

1025 (9): More irrigation at London
MM Hastings settler in 1 grow to 7 in (6).
NC workers move to forest

1000 (10): London builds settler heads towar flood plains East of York, N of Hastings, start Library, Nottingham builds settler, heads to location south of Cantebury starts granary.
Sell Hammi ROP (9) gold - now polite, he has started creep into the mts. but not too much other spots remain as settler are sent out taking the spot onthe lake.
Return lux to 0% , no changes onthe diplo front.

Hotrod