PROD Shadow - Sirian's TDG "Alternate Timelines"

[Sirian]

2470BC: I can't fault you for heading for the dyes. On Emperor or Deity, pulling a lux online right away allows all connected cities to grow a size larger, and that's a very big deal. It also helps with the early scoring if scoring is at all part of your goal.

At the same time, there are barely enough good tiles to go around, and if London is allowed to grow to size 3 at any point, there would not be enough. If you check out my turn, you also see that I sent a worker to the dyes, but near the end of my turn, after first bringing another good tile online and fully upgraded at York.

Remember, what can wait, should wait. Judging what can wait vs what can benefit you more now, is pretty much the point of the game, in fact.

You also sent two workers toward Nottingham, instead of one. That's OK, but what are you doing with them over there? Connecting the horses? Planning to build a chariot or horseman this early? Maybe not a bad idea, with all the barbarians popping up starting about now, but warriors or spearmen or even archers could fend them off for the time being. Your worker actions (even including the mining of the cattle -- I'd definitely go irrigation there, but the most important thing is to improve all the best tiles so that one way or the other, the cities are getting the biggest bang for their population)... Your worker actions are solid, but there is a certain lack of priority on focusing on maximizing the tiles in use. Were you one of the ones who sent a worker to mine the iron immediately in an earlier shadow? Anyway, this is something to think about, as taking time to connect resources before first improving enough good tiles around the cities is not the best move UNLESS you find some immediate need or use for those resources. If you don't plan to build a horse unit quickly, that definitely should wait.

I opened up your save at this point and saw one more thing. You moved both workers across that grassland, moving toward Nottingham, without having either one stop to build a road? That is spending worker turns moving, which you have to do, but it also spent another worker turn for later, having to move back into the tile you passed over to build a road there. Generally I hate to do that, since while it may speed a key improvement on a good tile by a couple of turns, it also ultimately delays ALL later improvements from that worker by a turn. There are rare exceptions, but I have found it to be a good rule of thumb not to move workers out of a tile that has no roads. Leave at least one to work on the road, or rather, plan always to build a road in each tile you enter. You may irrigate, mine, chop down first, but get the road in there before you vacate even if other projects are delayed slightly. In the long run, it's almost always better.

2390BC: I lost a scout too. It happens. There are things you can do to minimize it, and you dont want to waste scouts, but there are some luck factors in exploring. This is one of the few benefits to exploring with warriors as opposed to scouts.

2270BC: Good location for the next town: it's on fresh water, pulls in a major food bonus tile, and is situated to minimize waste as well as overlap with the tiles.

2190BC: Heading right for Monarchy could mean a major delay on finding the iron. Monarchy vs Republic is largely a matter of units. If you run a lot of units for MP duty (have fex luxuries available) and/or run a lot of units total, Republic can be too topheavy. This is more true on higher difficulty levels, though, where MP is more urgent and the AI's pose more of a threat more quickly, pushing you to build more and more units.

If you're planning to broker Polytheism for profit, that's one thing. If you're planning to try to trade for Iron Working, that's one thing. If you end up going all the way to Monarchy before finding where the iron deposits are, while you're on a big settler push, that could be bad. On higher difficulty, though, you won't have to worry. The AI's will contact one another quickly, their pace of research and trade will simply FLY BY, and on lower difficulty you can get away with it, so either way it's mostly moot in practice, but still something to consider in your theory and game plan. At least you are picking some goals to shoot for, though, and have reasons why you are going there, and that's a good start.

15 gold for Masonry is too cheap. In some senses, it's better than nothing, but then again maybe it's not. The AI's may SEEM to give one another everything, but in fact they don't. If another AI can't meet the market price, including cash, gpt, maps, contacts, etc etc, then they won't sell. Masonry is a big deal tech. They start the Pyramids soon after they get it. Delaying them at all may be worth 15 gold and then some. There's such a thing as playing it safe, and such a thing as being suckered. It's important to consider what you are giving up, and why, in these trades.

You could have done what I did, establish the embassy with them then sell them RoP for 20 turns for the 15 cash, to pull the cash out of their hands without giving away a major tech.

Trading communications invariably leads to AI's speeding their research and trade, and cuts you out of many deals. These AI's on Regent are especially sad at exploration, enjoying no bonuses and thus making contact much more slowly. It's simply unheard of in any game I've played for neighbors this close not to have contact yet. But keep in mind, it's in your interest to delay contact when possible. Unless you have reason to believe contact is imminent anyway, hold off as long as you can.


Overall Grade: B-

count: One. (Hastings Location)
count: None.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

2470BC: This is some good worker action. Hotrod headed for the dyes, but you did so in combination with improving another good tile at York, and you also didn't waste any worker turns by skipping over a tile without digging a road. Those are a big plus for you here. The main thing I did differently was to chop down a forest first, with a pair of workers. Since if I had moved directly to the dyes it would take two worker turns anyway, I used one of those to move onto the forest. In my game, after building a mine on the new good tile on the cleared grassland, I moved one worker to the dyes, and the other stayed to build the road, WITH THE INTENTION of next moving along the road into the city, then W onto the plains tile to bring a third good tile online.

Your thinking here is the kind I want to encourage: top priority to figuring which are the good tiles and how soon they'll be needed, and get them improved, before taking on other jobs that can afford to wait. You, at least, will have two good tiles at York, although... in my game, with a little more time, I'm going to have three, plus I sped up the temple production.

Finally, the settler. I'm rather amazed that both you and Hotrod picked the exact same location for the next city, for pretty much the same reasons, as I did. Is this a good sign? Or is this a scary, eerie moment?? Well, I must be doing something right in this project, as you guys are doing a better job on your own now of thinking things out.

2270BC: Yeah, the Babs coming northward bugged me too, but there should still be time to make a grab in that direction. With the next settler, in my game, I would send him out with the warrior from London as escort, and train a new warrior then. You're opting to train extra warriors now, which could also be good. Thing is, you have to make tradeoffs, and so if you push south too much, Germany could grab the north and vice versa. You did fine here.

2190BC: Good foresight on bringing irrigation down to London! That too is in my plans, just that I took the time out first to clear one forest tile at York.

Finally, I opened your save. Building a fourth worker out of Nottingham may have been a great move. It's a judgement call. One might think there's no such thing as too many workers, but actually there can be. What can wait, should wait, and once you have enough workers on hand to keep pace with improving the needed Good Tiles, if you keep training more at the expense of training settlers, then something you don't want to wait (founding more cities) is made to wait. Remember that every turn of delay on a new city is costing food, shields, commerce from that new city, all the way down the line through its history. So in some sense, your goal is to get as many cities founded as quickly as you can in the best/most productive arrangement you can. You have Nottingham set to build yet another worker, and that fifth one, in my view, can and should wait, as by this time you are almost getting ahead of yourself on having good tiles online.


Overall Grade: A

count: Two. (Hastings location, Workers).
count: None.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

2510BC: This is where it becomes critical to know exactly how many worker-turns it takes to complete each task.

There are three workers on the tile. Two are building roads and have one turn invested each already. Building roads takes three worker turns under despotism (1.5 with Industrious civ, which can be handled with slaves counting as .5 workers, so keep that in mind). Three turns, two invested already. One more worker turn will complete the road.

If you use the worker who is free to finish the last turn, the road completes immediately, freeing the other two workers on THIS turn. If you wait and let them finish, a worker turn is wasted, as only one more worker turn is needed but both will be used. If you pull a worker OFF the duty, that wastes the worker turn already invested. So the only "good" choice here is to finish the road with that third worker on this turn, then do something else with the other two workers.

2470BC: Too much jungle south and east of London? Those are future grasslands, and you only need to clear as much at a time as you need to have good tiles to work. Sending north first is not a bad choice, but by this reasoning you sound as if you plan to avoid expanding into the mountains and jungles, where all the coal, saltpeter, rubber, and aluminum will probably be found, and which will one day be hugely productive areas. Everything near the capital, no matter WHAT the land is, is prime real estate for its low corruption.

2310BC: Your city location is not bad, but it has a lot of overlap, and it eats the only hill in the area for the center tile. If you had moved one more tile to the NW, you'd still be on the fresh water, and you'd trade four overlap for three desert and a plains. Those are useless tiles until rails come along but would help out to make the city stronger once hospitals and rails are online, and attaching them to an otherwise strong city as surplus tiles rather redeems them to usefulness out of nothingness. Unless you are purposely planning to pack the cities into a denser build for strategic reasons, this is not a great location. Even then, all the lands to the nw are dry and barren anyway, and would not lend at all well to useful city terrain until there are railroads. So I'm going to rate this as a poor choice for Hastings location. At least it is on the fresh water, though, which means it's not a disaster, but if you have a rationale for why you prefer this location to one tile NW, I'd like to hear it.

Changing London to a temple... is not all bad, but there is one problem with it. There are not enough good tiles ready and waiting for the city to grow. Until more than three good tiles are ready to rock, you would be better off building workers and settlers instead of ending up slowing food production. Also, London has expanded its borders from Palace culture, so its need is much less urgent for temples than the other towns. With a granary in play, and neighbors encroaching on your lands in the land grab race, getting settlers out there is urgent. URGENT. When you are playing a peaceful ancient era, focusing on expansion and infrastructure instead of military, you aren't going to have the wherewithal to strongarm neighbors if they grab the choice lands. This temple is too soon in this city.

Your worker actions were solid, but not quite enough to get the thumbs up. There was the lost turn at first, and perhaps moving to the dyes a bit too quickly.


Overall Grade: C-

count: One. (Scouting)
count: Two. (Hastings location, London temple too soon)


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

2390BC: You're fond of stacking the workers, I see. Later on, I am too. By rails surely, and sometimes before then, because at that point it matters greatly. I gave you an A on your last turn, and did not fuss about the worker stack, as you did so much else right, but you here keeping the workers stacked IS wasting worker turns.

Are getting the good tiles improved slightly more quickly worth slowing down the overall worker progress? At this stage of the game, I don't think so. Keeping all the workers stacked means each spends a turn a turn moving into each tile to be worked.

Compare:

Three workers, spread them out, build a road in each of three tiles, takes four turns of all three, or twelve worker turns, to complete all the roads.

Three workers, keep them stacked, spend three worker turns (one whole turn) to move to first tile. Road done on second turn, move to second tile on third turn, road finished on third and final tile after six player turns, eighteen worker-turns. See?

Now if use the first method to build roads on all three tiles first, then you can use the roads to restack the workers to complete mining and irrigations on each tile, one at a time, in stacked fashion, without wasting worker-turns moving the workers to do so. THIS is the point at which you build roads first, mines or irrigation second: when you spread a worker stack out one per tile to dig the roads, then combine them back into a stack to do the rest, for the fastest total combination of worker turns saved plus good tiles coming online asap.

I'm going to give you a on this one for too much worker stacking too early in the game. One worker per tile for roads, most of the time (some exceptions, like moving two onto a forest to chop it down much sooner, or moving a ministack of 3, 4, 6, or 8 at a time onto jungle tiles to make them into Good Tiles much more quickly), then stack them again once the roads are in, for the rest of the work.

2350BC: The settler south, unescorted, into hostile territory, is a big risk. Too much? I'm not going to say that, but you will see on my own turn that I scuttled my thoughts of pushing south right away because of the dangers.

Worker 3 joining the cattle irrigation is waste of another worker turn here. The others will be done next turn anyway, as its 4 total for the task, 2 invested and 2 ongoing. You could have had him start the road, or not have moved him into this tile in the first place. Keeping all the workers stacked and working them all at the same jobs is easy on the brain, but won't gain you the edge of efficiency and speed needed for higher level play.

Not that you can't succeed without this level of attention -- Cyrene can handle Emperor games and he lets the city governors run wild and uses the weedy AUTOMATED workers -- but he effectively has Deity quality strategics and hits the glass ceiling on Emperor for ignoring even the most basic attention to what's going on with his workers and inside his cities. Each player has to make up their own minds as to striking the balance between fun and efficiency for them, and some are not interested in this level of gameplay. On that basis, you could run stacked workers all the time and pay no heed to worker-turn efficiency, but that's roughly equal to or only slightly better than running automated workers for most or all of your land improvements.

2270BC: One irrigated cattle on the river, one game, and some bg already in range, is enough good tiles in range to be working. You could pull in the wheat, and the other dye, with the temple, but... can't those wait? Every turn delayed on founding a new city is a turn of food lost, and shields, and could mean delays all the way down the line. There has to be a balance between training new workers/settlers and improving the existing cities. One of the worst mistakes newer players make in limiting their own results is that of not cranking enough new cities as quickly as possible.

What can wait, should wait. This temple is too soon, because it's not needed to be able to produce settlers quickly. London needed a granary for that, but that was because it lacked food bonuses. Nottingham has irrigated cattle now, that's the same as having a granary: five turns to grow the city. You pumped a worker out of there. I chose not to, for urgency of pumping settlers, but the worker first was at least as good if not better, if you get Nottingham's good tiles maxed out quickly. But a temple? When you could be training settlers at fastest pace now? That would have been necessary if settled on the horses as I was originally thinking, with all the good tiles out of immediate range, but here there are two strong tiles in range and some bg ready to be worked. The temple is too soon.

Also, moving all the workers to the next-best tile... this is good, in some ways. Focusing on improving the best tiles, or at least getting good tiles maximized, is the right thing to do, but moving the entire worker stack to the third town, leaving the captial and second city with four total good tiles between them while the workers are all centuries away from returning to the area? This is symptomatic of stacking the workers too early and too much being wasteful. EIGHT worker turns to cross the river and move to the game tile?

I might have moved one across the river to the bg tile out of range, two NE of the city, built a road there and moved the lone worker to the game tile from there. I might have moved two workers across the river onto the forest NE of town, to chop that or to build a road through it. I might even have moved two workers directly to the game tile, but certainly not all four. I'd NOT have made Nottingham my one and only priority, no way. I'd have workers near each city. Perhaps seeming to be slower, in that each tile has to wait a few turns for improvements to be completed, but overall progress coming more quickly for far fewer worker turns wasted with excessive stacking. In an odd, perhaps counterintuitive way, you are hurrying up so you can wait. See?

2190BC: You have listed here changing London to spearmen, but I peeked inside your game and you clearly didn't make the change until 2150, since the shield box is full. One turn of producion will end up being wasted, since if you had swapped to spearman last turn they would already be done.

You don't want to let barbarians run through your cities, they can set your production back to zero or kill off population, although usually they steal from the treasury instead. However, one conscript warrior fortified on a hill ought to hold out just fine on anything short of deity. In fact, looking at the tiles, there is a hill they could move on to or a mountain. The AI is programmed to prefer the high ground, but in this case the mountain is across the river! So that's even more defensive bonus! You'd have to suffer really bad RNG luck to lose, and if you win both fights he is guaranteed to get promoted. If I picked your game up on an inherited turn, I'd swap back off the spearmen, to settler once again.

In fact, let's test it. I swap to settler in your game and click next turn twice. Here's the result:

Lost the first hp, then won two straight, promoted, and won two more. A close call perhaps, but on target for these odds.

Finally, those Embassies are a great move! You did a good job on the last round of diplomacy, although you could have gotten Otto's cash for a Right of Passage and delayed the contact.


Overall Grade: C+

count: Three. (Hastings Location, Scouting, Embassies)
count: Three. (Workers counts as two, Temple too soon at Nottingham)


- Sirian

 

[hotrod0823]

I will be away from Civ for the next couple days but wanted to post my results for turn #5 before I am up in the "official" game. I can't upload my save game but here is my log.

I can now post my game!


(0) 2150 BC Trade ROP with Russia for 10 gold., change London to grow in 2 , settler in 4. Change research to IW.

(1) 2110 BC: Hastings defends against the barbs.,
E Scout: moves West, West nothing of interest
Nottingham Worker: North to Game tile
W Scout: SW
S Scout w/ Warrior: each move south

(2) 2070 BC: E Scout: W,W
Nottingham Worker: Clear game forest - 10 turns
S Warrior: dispersed barb camp +25 gold
W Scout: W,W
S Scout: W to warrior site
London grow to 3 got Mine tile back from York - Set Lux to 10% to avoid riots in London (No MP's)
Create embassy in Germany for 31 gold
Sold ROP with Germany for 15 gold - Net embassy for 16 gold

(3) 2030 BC: Nottingham builds warrior moved toward barb camps east of york, start settler and MM tiles to work the horse grow in 7/ settler in 8.
Hastings worker built move to wheat square - start warrior
S scout: W,W
S Warrior W
N Scout: N,N to area between Germany and China
W Scout: W,W toward fogarea SE of Russia

(4) 1990 BC: London builds Settler - starts Warrior, Settler heads to area SW of London - game and dyes
York gets "good" tile back from London
Workers complete clearing forest - 10 shields to York, start irrigation with both - 2 turns
Nottingham warrior moves to york
W Scout: S,SW to fog E of Russia
S Scout: W, SW Warrior following
Hastings worker irrigating wheat
Reduced Lux to 0% no change just didn't want to forget later

(5) 1950 BC: York completes temple starts spearman - thought about barracks but "what can wait should" Can it wait? We'll see
York/Nottingham warrior attacks barbs - now Vet.
Settler moves south away from London - unescorted but the barb camp was recently dispersed. NOT sure if it can reappear in the same spot or not?
E Scout NW,NW by German boarder
W Scout: S,S by russia
S Scout NW,NW: ends next to barbs and the warrior is lagging behind - should have waited for the warrior to catch up
Change Nottingham worked tiles to settler in 5 growth in 5.

(6) 1910BC: S Scout :suicide: warrior escort is no good if 2 tiles behind
Settler moves SW
Irrigation in York complete - 2 workers start roads - 2 turns from earilier discussions thought about moving one off but decided to use both workers. maybe does shave 1 turn off the road but limits 1 turn for other actions.
N Scout: NW,W
W scout: SW, S - fog busting
S Warrior NW
E Warrior NE toward barb camp

(7) 1870 BC: London builds warrior moves SW - starts settler
S Warrior kills barbs next to barb camp now
Barbs approach Nottingham move warrior out of city to protect worker - set lux to 20% to avoid disorder in Nottingham, No changes with research at 70%, IW in 3 turns breaking even
S Warrior: West
E Warrior NE toward barb camp
W scout : South by russia
N Scout: continues to scout area between germany and China

(8) 1830 BC: 2 workers move NE to forest SE of York
Hastings worker starts roads
York warrior moves next to barb camp
Nottingham warrior attacks barbs and survives - lone fog area to W must be barb camp??
S Warrior at base of river south of russia
W Scout : Near Moscow
Iron Working in 1 turn +0 gold with lux still at 20% and research at 70%

(9) 1790 BC: Finished IW started Maps (24 turns now soon to change), Iron deposits to the West of London and North of York and near Moscow in Moutains
Workers set to clear forest SE of York
E Warrior Attacks Barb camp and get +25 gold
London warrior SW toward Settler
Found Cantabury in Jungle near game and dyes and fresh water (after expansion), start warrior
S Warrior NW next to barb camp
W Scout to Iron mountain near Russia
Hastings warrior attacks barbs and looses - city left unprotected and worker is not long for this world

(10) 1750 BC: Lost Hastings worker, Hastings builds warrior starts worker, attacks barbs and wins
S warrior dispersed barb camp +25 gold
York spearman built - sent south to London starts another
Nottingham built settler - moves south starts warrior
Set lux back to 0% after settler is built pop drops to 2 no unrest.
Set reasearch to 100% Maps in 16 -2gpt
Create embassy with Babs (31gold) - they have no gold for ROP , they are now Cautious.

Can't upload my save game today or tomorrow but will as soon as possible.

HotrodEdit : I am able to post my save game

Hotrod Shadow 1750BC

 

[Rowain deWolf]

2150BC (IT): Changing worked tiles in London so that London grows again. ROP with Russia for all their gold(10 g)

Warrior in Hastings wins against Barb.

2110BC (1): Worker in Nottingham sent to road the Game. Scout in the East(S1) moves 2W. Western Scout(S2) 1S, 1SW; Southern Scout(S3) 1S, Warrior accompanies him.

2070BC (2): S1 moves 1NW, 1N; S2 moves 2SW; S3 moves 1NW; Warrior disperse a Cuman-Encampment and get 25 gold. This is used to get an Embassy in Babylon. Since Babylon have nothing of interest no trade happens. Lux-rate set to 10% to prevent riots in London.

2030BC (3): Nottingham finishes training a Warrior starts a Settler . the new Warrior moves 1NW. Hastings finish Worker starts a Warrior. Worker moved to the Wheat. Southern Warrior moves 1NE. Scout-movements: S1 stops. S2: 2SW; S3 1W, 1SW;

A Barb shows near York.

1990BC (4): Settler finished in London. Sent to the fish-pond SE of London to settle 1 tile South of the fish. London starts a new Settler. Lux-rate set back to 0%.
Warrior moves: Nottingham warrior moves 1W. Southern warrior 1E.
Scouts: S1: 1SW, 1W; S2: 1W, 1SW; S3: 1SW;
Worker: near Hastings starts irrigation; both near York finish wood chucking start mining.

1950BC (5): York finish Temple starts Barracks.
Warriors: Western Warrior 1W; Southern 1NE (I guess NE is right not NW);
Scouts: S1: 1NW, 1N; S2: 2S; S3: 2W;

Spear in York defeats Barb, no promotion

1910BC (6):reduced Science to get +1 gold and Horseback riding the next turn.
Warriors: Western disperse Vandal-encampment +25gold. Southern moves 1NE;
Scouts: S1: 1NW, 1N; S2: 2W; S3: 2N spots furs;

1870BC (7): Horseback researched, Iron Working started (12 turns by +1gpt).
Diplomacy : Deal with China they get Ceremonial we get a Worker .
Worker sent to the York party which started roading the tile.
Warriors: Western rest; Southern moves 1E;
Scouts: S1: 1NE; S2: 1S, S3: 1N, 1E

1830BC (8): Workers: Nottingham worker move 1SW; Hastings starts road;
Warriors: Western 1N, Southern 1NE;
Scouts: S1: 1NE,1NW; S2: 1SW, 1S spots an hunnian-warrior. S3: 1SE, 1S;

1790BC (9): Nottingham finish Settler starts a Temple. Settler sent 1W He shall settle next to the Horses. Canterbury founded orders a Worker.
Workers: Worker near Nottingham start mining. The bunch near York move 1NE to chuck more wood.
Warriors: Western 1N, Southern 1NE;
Scouts: S1: 2N, S2: 2S; S3: 1SE;
Opened an Embassy in Berlin ROP with Germany for all their gold(15gold), Russia China and Germany are polite. No civ has any money( except us).

1750BC (10): Hastings finish Warrior starts Settler.
Warriors: Westarn 1N; Southern 1E; Hastings 1N;
Scouts: S1: 1N; S2: 1S (spots Huncamp), 1W; S3 founds himself close to a Parthian warrior runs 2E;



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-rowain-1750BC.zip

Rowain

PS: I'm out of town from 24th till 26th and from 28th till 2nd of June. I don't know if i can manage to squeeze the next round in there .

 

[hotrod0823]

Any chance, round #6 will be open today?

I am hoping to play my turn tonight or tomorrow. With the long weekend I am sure that many will be unavaible but just inquiring on when I should expect to be able to my my first "official" turn.

Hotrod

 

[hotrod0823]

My concern is growing that this alternate form of SG may suffer the same quiet death that apparently many other SGs have suffered over the past few weeks. This turn was opened on the 19th and it is now the 24th with only 2 shadows out of 6 and the "official" turn posted.

I am sure Sirian is waiting for the bulk of the turns to be posted before posting his Shadow. I read over the Emporer training and it is suffering a worst fate than this. Many are dropping because they are not getting the most out of the system. The shadow has become a burnden. I don't think that at all. The critiques of mine and other turns I have found informative and helpful in my solo games as well as my future shadow turns.

I have yet to even play and official turn and I am looking forward to that soon.

If there is anyone that is not going to continue or if this truely is a dying thread then please let those of us who wish to continue know either way.

Hotrod

 

[Sirian]

I'd like to keep everyone involved. Things have been going well so far, in my estimation. If anybody is feeling too much weight on the report side, they are welcome to include fewer details. I can only critique what you report, so keep that in mind, but for one thing, you can all safely drop the turn-by-turn blows on the scouts, and reduce those to highlights. What you do with the workers is still of some importance, but at some point that will become burdensome too. By then, I hope to have imparted all the urgent points about managing workers anyway.

Unless any of you have lost all interest in the game, I hope to see all keeping up, playing, posting some kind of report. I have been waiting for at least most of the players to post reports before even playing my turns, although I don't read any of your reports until after I've played. However, Hotrod does have a point in that there are deadlines for a reason, and it's not a good sign if people start to slip past them.

Please let us know what your status is if you're running late.


- Sirian

 

[ChrTh]

FYI I'm playing and posting tonight

 

[ChrTh]

Turn 0 -- 2150 BC
Ok, so I'm guessing I need to fix the food situation in the Capital..done.

Alright, some goals for this turn:
Disperse some of the Barbarians if possible
Get that Settler South.
Avoid at all costs...

Turn 1 -- 2110 BC
Warrior in Hastings defeats Barbarian attacker.
E Scout moves W-W to avoid Barbarians
Worker in Nottingham struggles between getting horses online and getting a road in the forest for extra commerce...he chooses the forest (I don't see an immediate need for horses)
N Scout moves NW-NW to explore over by China
S Scout moves SW with Warrior, who hopefully will defeat Barbarian camp

Turn 2 -- 2070 BC
E Scout moves W-W
We disbursed a Cuman Encampment and get 25 Gold!
I do a quick check...we're ahead in the Tech game, but no one has the moolah to spare so I don't sell anything.
N Scout moves NW-W
S Scout moves W-S
London has grown...York is stealing a good tile from London, but since Settler is due in 2 turns anyhow, it'll only cost London two food...er, scratch that. London is the Settler-spawner, I'll give it the benefit of the food. York will lose the two food.
I raise luxuries to 10% to prevent London from rioting (I caught it this time )..at a cost of -1gpt, but it'll only be for two turns and then I'll reset it.
I see if changing Hastings from Forest to Lake helps any, but it doesn't..the two commerce don't make a difference unless I want to go up to 100% science, which I can't, because London would riot.

Turn 3 -- 2030 BC
Nottingham produces Warrior, I order up Settler--done in 6 turns.
Hastings produces Worker, I order up Warrior (to deal with Barbarians)
I send Warrior built in Nottingham to London (so we won't have to raise Luxuries when London hits 3 anymore)
E Scout goes W-W..I'm heading him down South and East of Russia.
N Scout goes W-NW..China has a Settler heading east.
Warrior heads towards S city site.
S Scout goes S-S

Turn 4 -- 1990 BC
Nope, Chinese settler is going N.
Barbarian NE of York, I divert Warrior heading to London to York.
London builds Settler, orders up Warrior.
E Scout (hereafter called W Scout) goes SW-SW
N Scout goes W-NW
Worker begins irrigating Wheat near Hastings
S Scout goes E-E
I reset luxuries back down to 0
Forest is cleared for York. I have one worker begin Mine. Other worker will go NW to begin Irrigation chain a la my last turn.
York is given back the good tile.

Turn 5 -- 1950 BC
York finishes Temple, I order up Worker to help with the tiles about to become available--actually, screw that, I order up Barracks. Here's my thinking: London (having Granary and no corruption), Hastings (Wheat), and Nottingham(Cow) are all about the Worker/Settler pumping. I'll make York the soldier factory while we're in expansion phase.
Warrior defeats Barbarian, heads NE to deal with Camp.
W Scout goes W-SW to avoid Barbarian while still maintaining planned trajectory
N Scout goes N-N
S Scout goes SE-SE

Turn 6 -- 1910 BC
W Scout goes SW-S
S Scout goes S-S
N Scout goes NE (Settler is blocking a more efficient path)
Finagle science a little to gain 3gold next turn

Turn 7 -- 1870 BC
We discover Horseback Writing...I order up Iron Working (11 turns).
London finishes Warrior, order up Settler. Warrior will defend London until Settler is finished, and will then serve as a Settler escort while another Warrior is built.
S Scout goes S-S
W Scout goes SW-S
N Scout skedaddles S-S to get out of Chinese territory (settler finally settled)
Hastings changed to Settler since lack of Shields is causing slow growth (plus Warrior was going to take out Barbarian Camp, now there's another Warrior for that)

Turn 8 -- 1830 BC
Barbarian W of Nottingham.
Worker finishes Road, moves SE to build another Road in the forest
Canterbury founded, and it's going to be slow growing there until it expands (and grabs a game)...so I order up Temple, but next player could veto.
Worker finishes Irrigating wheat, begins Road
W Scout goes SW-S
N Scout goes around Chinese territory
S Scout goes S-SE

Turn 9 -- 1790 BC
Our cultural influence is expanding!
We disperse an Angle encampment and get 25 gold!
W Scout goes S (jungle morass)
S Scout goes NW-NW
N Scout keeps going around China
I up Science to 90%..we go from +2 gold to -1, but we gain a turn on Iron Working, which considering we're at around 58 gold, is worth it.

Turn 10 -- 1750 BC
Nottingham completes Settler, I order up Settler
AARRGGHH!! My Warrior in Nottingham loses to the Barbarian! (I attacked him because the Barbarian was aiming towards the Worker, not the city)
Worker runs away!
Settler runs away!
I move Spearman out of York to defend Worker/Settler and then to move him into Nottingham (of course, it'll be after it's sacked)
Worker completes Mine S of York, begins road
W Scout goes W-NW
S Scout goes NW-N
I take a look at diplomacy...hrm, the Chinese have Iron Working! But they lack Alphabet, CerBur, and HorseRiding. I wonder what he wants for Iron Working...Contact with the Russians! I accept, it'll save 4 turns on Iron Working, and China goes to Polite.
I look to barter Communications...
Russians don't know Germans
Germans don't know Anyone
Chinese don't know Babylonians, and vice versa...since Chinese now know Russians, they can get contact with the Babylonians from them...so I sell Contact with the Chinese to Babylon for 10 Gold (China had nothing) just so Russia doesn't get the dough. That also moves Babylon to cautious.
I keep Germany in the Dark
Science is changed to Philosophy (my goal is STILL the Republic), due in 8 turns with 2 GPT.
We have Iron right next to London! Woo-Hoo!


Ugh, that was a sucky ending to my turn, fortunately no one has to continue it...so Nottingham will never be sacked
My goal was to move the recently built Settler North (have not determined exactly where yet). London's Settler was to take the square directly south of the Fish on the lake SE of London. Hastings Settler was going to go South for the Gems in that SE valley. But since my turn will only be analyzed, not continued, that's about the extent of it.

Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-chrth-1750bc.zip

 

[Black Cursor]

I'm also playing and posting tonight.

---> TBC

 

[Black Cursor]

Made some progress here with only one minor setback. The short version of the roll of years follows.

2150 BC (0) Visit each city. London- swaps to bg from forest. York- N/C (No change. Will give back tile to London when needed). Nottingham- changes to Worker from Warrior. Hastings- N/C.

Make the diplomatic rounds. From Germany, get 15g for Contact with the Chinese as they will surely meet soon. We're ahead of everyone except Germany in science; we have military parity with everyone except Russia; and we're behind everyone in culture. Our forthcoming temple should fix the latter.

For reference (you can't tell a peon without a pogram ) -

Nottingham= Wk1, York= Wk2, Wk3. North= S1, South= S2, East= S3. South= Wr1, Hastings= Wr2, Nottingham= Wr3.

And so it begins...

-- Angle attacks Wr2, -1hp (yellow), loses.

2110 BC (1) Spearman to London for MP. Wk1 N to forest/game. Wr1 S, sees Cuman village w/1 conscript. Wr2 healed. S1 SW,W. S2 E,S to mountains. S3 runs from Angle W/W to mountains. York- swaps to forest being worked from shared bg.

2070 BC (2) Spearman arrives. Wk1 roads forest/game. Wr1 attacks Cuman, -1hp (yellow), wins, 25g. S1 SW,W to hills. S2 S to hills. S3 NW,N to mountains, clears remaining fog from Berlin. Establish Embassy with Babylon, 36g (now Cautious).

-- Nottingham finishes Worker (Wk4), starts Settler. Hastings finishes Worker (Wk5), starts Warrior.

2030 BC (3) Spearman skipped. Wk4 NW to grassland. Wk5 NE to flood plain/wheat. Wr1 E to meet next Settler. S1 S,S. S2 SW,S to mountains. S3 NW,W in-out of Germany.

-- Forest harvested, 10 shields to York, no underlying bg. London finishes Settler, starts Settler.

1990 BC (4) Settler SW (next town- hills/river next to forest/game). Spearman to York. Wk2 mines grassland. Wk3 to jungle/dyes. Wk4 roads grassland. Wk5 irrigates flood plain/wheat. Wr1 E to mountains. S1 S, sees Vandal village w/1 conscript, runs W. S2 W,W. S3 W,N.

-- See Angle near Hastings. York finishes Temple, starts Warrior, swaps to shared bg from grassland being worked.

1950 BC (5) Settler S to hills. Spearman arrives. Wk3 arrives. Wk5 stops irrigation, flees SW to Hastings (loses 1 worker turn). Wr1 N. S1 W,S. S2 W,NW to mountains. S3 W,N to mountains.

-- Angle now next to Hastings. Treasury running low.

1910 BC (6) Settler S to hills, leaves borders. Spearman fortifies. Wk3 roads jungle/dyes. Wk5 skipped. Wr1 NE to mountians. S1 S,S. S2 SW,W to hills. S3 NW,W to mountains. Science 50% nets +4gpt (Horseback Riding still in 2).

-- Angle attacks Wr2 at Hastings, loses.

1870 BC (7) Settler S to hills. Wk5 NE to go back to work. Wk4 finishes road, NE to forest/game to help Wk1 clear forest next turn. Wr1 rests. Wr2 wakes, N to hunt Angles. S1 SW,S. S2 N,W. S3 NW to mountains. Hastings swaps to lake from forest (can swap back to speed next Warrior if threatened). Science 40% nets +8gpt (still in 1).

-- Horseback Riding learned, Science 90%, Map Making in 16. York finishes Warrior (Wr4), starts Granary.

1830 BC (8) Settler SW to hills, arrives. Wk1 finishes road, clears forest. Wk4 also clears forest. Wk5 irrigates flood plain/wheat again. Wr1 healed, NE to hills, joins Settler. Wr2 NW to hills. Wr4 to Nottingham. S1 SW,NW to mountains, sees Hun. S2 NW to hills. S3 W.

-- Hun moves into Russia next to St. Petersberg. York borders expand.

1790 BC (9) Canterbury founded, starts Warrior. Wr4 arrives. Wr2 N to hills, sees Angle village w/1 conscript. Wr1 fortifies. Wr3 wakes, NW (road),W to hunt barbarians. S1 SW,S to mountains (loses sight of Hun). S2 N. S3 W,W. Leaving Nottingham's 3rd tile on forest as opposed to roaded grassland saves 1 turn on Settler.

1750 BC (10) Wk2 finishes mine, roads grassland. Wr2 NW next to Angle village. Wr3 W, next to Vandal village w/1 conscript. Wr4 fortifies. S1 S,W. S2 E,E. S3 NW to hills in China.

Finish up with another round of diplomacy. From Babylon, get 10g for bilateral Right of Passage -- The Hammer is now Polite. We're now ahead of everyone except Russia in science -- Cathy must have popped a few huts . We have military parity with everyone :soldier: and we're now ahead of everyone in culture .

So goes another 400 years of progress from the mind of...

(Be seeing you...)

---> TBC (Timing Becoming Critical?)

TBC's Shadow - 1750 BC

 

[Sirian]

IT 2150BC: Change Nottingham to settler, reset London tiles to restore food rate. Check diplomacy, nothing to do there.

Note: I'm going to stop reporting the minutiae of scout and military movements, and reduce to highlights.

2110BC: Barbarian attacks hastings and is wiped out. Worker at Nottingham moved to grass along river, SW of town.

2070BC: Our warriors attack a barb camp southwest of London. Victory! No damage to our troops. I use the cash to establish embassy with Germany, then sell them RoP for 15 gold. Otto now polite. Have to run 10% lux for London, as its size 3, and also to borrow its tile back from York.

2030BC: Hastings produces worker, send him to the wheat tile. Starts warrior.

1990BC: Barbarian comes into visible range of York. London produces settler, change production to warrior, and before I click out of here, I go up to the arrows in the city screen and slide forward to York, returning the borrowed tile to it. NOTE: this is a minor example, but there are times when cycling forward through the cities can let you gain advantage from newly discovered tech in the portion of your cities not yet done with their turns when the tech comes in: changing build orders to a new unit or building, or even upgrading troops from within the city screen.

York workers done chopping, start mining. Scout west of Nottingham has spotted a barb camp. Settler from London heads south.

1950BC: York finishes temple, starts barracks. Nottingham worker finishes road, starts mining. Nottingham MM'd to pull more food/trade with settler due in same time frame.

1910BC: York spears defeat barbarians, promote to veteran.





1870BC: London finishes warrior, starts another. Warrior sent toward Nottingham while Nottingham warrior sent west toward barb camp. Notting finishes settler, starts another, settler sent NE toward lake dot. Horseback riding learned, start Iron Working. I check diplomacy, China has a worker available! I trade them Ceremonial Burial for their worker, and they are now polite! Chinese worker paired with a worker at York to dig a road faster.

1830BC: Barbarian comes into sight of Hastings. Our worker there is done irrigating, but for safety sake I move him off the tile without doing a road, SE onto a forest tile.

1790BC: York border expands! Canterbury founded in hills SW of London, starts temple. London produces warrior, starts settler. Warrior west of Nottingham moves into attack position.

1750BC: Hastings attack, barbs defeated. Builds warriors, starts worker. Spare warrior sent north to deal with the barb camp up there before it explodes. (You can't dillydally with these camps, you have to go after them. On Emperor/Deity the AI will take care of them for you (and get the gold) almost always, but down here on Regent level this is clearly something you have to do for yourself).

Our warrior attacks and clears camp west of Nottingham, removing that threat for the moment. I take the money and check diplomatic rounds. China has Iron Working! I establish embassy with them, then decide after looking around that they seem imminently about to contact Russia. (On higher difficulty, even Monarch, it SURELY would have happened already.) I trade them contact with Russia for Iron Working, then trade the Babs contact with China for all their gold (10). Now all those are in contact, but no one has found Germany yet.

I start research on Literature. On Deity, you might as well not bother, stick to markets and buy all your tech for a faster climb up in last place. On Monarch or Emperor, you can follow along buying tech on the cheap for a while but may at some benefit from taking the tech lead and not looking back. On Regent or lower... the AI's are going to be so sad on research, you NEED libraries and to be doing much of the research for yourself, so... I picked Literature.

Our settler moves into position to found Coventry (6th city) next turn, north of lake above York.

There's iron south of Berlin we'd like to deny to Germany, going to position our scout in this area and at least see any German settlers coming. We might be able to grab this spot. Probably need to head for the gems with next London settler, though. Those are much more urgent, seeing as we have one iron already on hand. Hasting has a tree being chopped and should produce either a settler or temple after the next worker pops out.


You guys may want to load up my game this time (if you haven't always been) to have a look around. Lots of barbarians at the gates means more military, and I have some spare warriors floating around on camp killer duty, plus you can see what I'm doing at York with its good tiles.

Sirian's Shadow - 1750BC


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

2150BC: Wasting a turn of research to swap topics? If you feel your predecessor made a really bad choice and there's urgent need for something else, then yeah, do what you think you have to do. However, unless you are planning to build swords right away, the iron can wait. It's one thing to change tacks, and something else to waste time/effort spent in another direction to do so. I won't call this a bad call, but in SG's you have to learn to roll with what others have done and not overdo the veto stamp.

2070BC: Embassy/RoP.

2030BC: Nottingham work the horse? You can pull five shields working a forest, only four with the horse. You want to max food or max shields. You almost never want to not be maxing one or the other this early in the game. The only thing the horse has over a forest along the river is trading a shield for a commerce. Not good.

1790BC: Mapmaking? In this situation, can harbors and ships wait? Also, the AI's place very high value on mapmaking, so on any higher difficulty you can usually let them research it first to drop the cost on it while you pick up something more obscure, or play catch up along lines they already finishes, or build gold and wait to buy.

Um... why didn't you pick the worker up and MOVE HIM out of harm's way? Better to waste progress on the road than lose the worker, yes? No? Maybe?


I opened your save. Canterbury location is strong on avoiding waste/overlap, but it's not on fresh water when there are sources on both sides of it, and while strong on long term potential, it actually has too much food available. You could redeem some of those mountains for a higher-shield output city by building on river to the south, as well as fix your border more favorably with babylon. Iron, coal, saltpeter and uranium appear in mountains, and trade uranium for aluminum for hills. You can't think of mountains as bad. Mountains are bad only when there are insufficient food resources in the area to get to size 20 with your city, with max irrigation and rails, and even then you are usually better with a limited city in the region than with none. You also squeeze the area between this site and Nottingham, forcing overlap there. This need not be if you found on either of the fresh water sources.

Your site has plusses, but it has more minuses. Do you see?

Also, why the irrigated grassland? I'm a fan of irrigating some grass early and having several in place for the first govt change, but NOT before you have good tiles with shields.


Overall Grade: C

count: Three. (London/York tile management, clearing barb camps, embassy/RoP)
count: Two. (Canterbury location, needlessly lost a worker).


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

1990BC: London starts another settler? Too soon! It will be done before you get to size 3 and if you don't realize this soon, Bat Things (TM) will happen.

1870BC: Nabbed that worker!

1790BC: That's a bold location for Canterbury. The pressure with Ninevah could cut either way. Vs Babs on Deity that would be a suicide move as your city would be the one flipped vs those masters of culture, you with the sluggish cultural English. In this game it may be a great location, though. It certainly helps secure the gems area more, although that could still be a problem if you let it go too long.

Sending your other settler toward the horses... if you're going that far, go all the way to the desert and grab the incense too.

Your worker actions are all strong, too. The one at Nottingham could be working a grass along the river for one bonus trade, but everything else you did looks good.


Overall Grade: A-

count: Four. (Workers, China deal, Embassy/RoP, Homeland Defense)
count: One. (London settler due before city regrows to size 3)


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

2110BC: There's another option for the Nottingham worker: get MORE SHIELDS online! Skip the horses (low food) and the game (+commerce can wait) and work a grassland along the river to bring a third good tile online. Check my game for results.

2070BC: Good job avoiding the weed icon this turn.

1950BC: Good rationale for York.

1830BC: Good long-term location for Canterbury, but short term it's really going to suffer. This is not a bad choice, but as you may recall I preferred the tile one to the SW to pull the game in right away and also two already-cleared grass within expanded range.

1790BC: 58 gold just sitting around? Where are those embassies!

1750BC: Yeah, tough luck with the barbs there. I think you could have managed this better, but at least you moved the worker and settler out of harm's way (unlike *ahem* somebody else who panicked and left a worker to die).


Overall Grade: B

count: Two. (York/London management, Iron trade)
count: None.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

TBC: Link to your save file was jacked. I had to hunt down the correct file in the listing.

2110BC: Nicely efficient MP movement. Risky with barbs over on that frontier, though. In my game, barbs came at York, and I was surprised that they did not do so in your game. Anyway, you saved a few MP luxury pennies.

Much better job with the workers, getting off the premature stacks.

1910BC: leaving the worker in the city sounds safe, but if the barb wins and raids, the worker would die too. Better to move the worker further south and have him doing stuff, knowing the barbs will attack the city first if they reach it before reaching the worker. (See my game for details).

EDIT: overlooked something. Settler at London due too soon. You should have built some military there in the interim to prevent this.


Overall Grade: B-

count: Two. (Canterbury location, Homeland Defense)
count: One. (London next settler too soon)


- Sirian

 

[Cyrene]

Well, I am basically butting in here.

I wanted to mention that I think the players in the game are doing a great job with the concept.

If Sirian graded my turns in Succession games we have done together, they would all be D- or worse. The important thing (as I understand it) is not that you have to do every turn to the absolute highest standard possible or else you are an idiot. The real fun is to learn about new ways of looking at things (or tactics or techniques) that you never thought of before, decide what fits into your game, and use the ones that fit to the best advantage, and just acknowledge the rest.

The point is not to be the best damn player ever, the point is to have the most fun possible, and make your choices in playstyle based on full knowledge of all the options available.

I would also like to point out that the other players are not the only ones taking public risks here . Sirian is holding himself to a higher standard than he ever holds team-mates in a game. To put himself out in the open as an arbiter of good and bad play, and to be willing to accept and embrace (and/or debate) dissenting opinions, is VERY rare in the computer gaming world.

Good luck all.

--Cy

 

[Rowain deWolf]

1750(0): Alphabeth,Ceremonial 10 gold to China for IronWorking and RoP;

1725(1): Worker: Nottingham moves to the gane to road it,
Hasting moves to the jungle west of Hastings to clear it;

Warriors: Warrior 1 (west of Canterbury) moves 1N ;
Warrior 2 (on the Southern Coast) 1N towwards Hun encampment
Warrior 3: (North of Hasting) 1S
Spear moves to Hastings;

Settler sent to the tile north of NW of hill
Scouts: Scout1 (western most) 2S next to Hunencampment with ready Warrior in it.
Scout2. (on the East) 2S; Scout3( in the SouthWest) 1N 1NW;


Inbetween: Scout1 dies;

1700(2): York fin Settler starts Warrior; Settler sent to floodplain on river 4NE 1E of York;
Warrior1: 1N, Warrior2: 1NW; Warrior3: 1S
Sc2: 1SW,1S; Sc3: 1NW, 1W to replace the dead one.

1675(3): Canterbury fin Warrior (Warrior4) since i want to move the city 1 tile south i start a Settler.
Warrior1 1N; Warrior2: attack Hun-Warrior wins; Warrior3: 1S; Warrior4: 1S to do barbscreening in the Jungle.
Sc3: 1N 1W; Sc2: 1SW,1S;

Inbetween Alemanni warrior approach Nottingham

1650(4):London fin Settler starts Warrior; Settler sent to hill on river 3S, 1SW accompanied by Spear;
NWarrior in Nottingham steps 1NW to greet Alemanni;
Warrior1: 1N; Warrior2: dispers HunEncampment; Warrior3: 1S Warrior4 1SE;
Sc3: 1W, 1N; Sc2: 1S, 1SE;

Diplomatic roundcall nothing new.

1625(5): The alemanniwarrior gets killed and our Warrior is now a Veteran
Warrior1: is out of Jungle and rests now; Warrior2: rest after his encounter with the Huns; Warrior3: stays. Warrior4 1SE; Since Nottingham is now Size3 with noe MP i have to turn up Lux to 20% to prevent rioting.

1600(6): York fin Warrior starts Worker. Setting worked tiles in Nottingham to gain more food. Worker between York and Nottingham moves to tile 2W of York to mine and road:
Coventry founded Warrior ordered.
Nottingham warrior 1SE (towards Nott)
Warrior1 1N; Warrior2: 1W spots new land; Warrior 3 stays; Warrior4 1S;
Sc3 2NW; Sc2: 1N 1E;

1575(7): Hastings finish Settler starts new one; Settler and Spear sent 5 tiles to SE of Hastings(Gems!);
Warwick founded Worker ordered.
Worker fin road on Iron moves to Tile 1SW of London to clear Jungle;
Nottingham Warrior returns; Lux rate back to zero;
Warrior1: 1N; Warrior2: 1SW spots seljuk camp and Warrior; Warrior3: starts MP in Warwick;
warrior4: 1S;
Sc3: 2W; Sc2: 2E;

1550(8): London fin Warrior starts Settler.
Newcastle founded starts Temple(has already a spear);
Worker on the game by Nottingham moves 1NE to mine and road a bonus grass; Worker on Dyes starts clearing Jungle.
Warrior1: 1NE finds Alemanni encampment; Warrior2 1SW; Warrior4: 1W;
Sc3: 2SW, Sc2: 1N

Inbetween: an unknown invisible Warrior fights the barb in the Southwest he wins and shows his pink dress

1525(9): Mathe learned Philo started; Nott fin Settler and sent him 5 NW of Nottingham; Nottingham starts Temple;
Warrior1: kills Alemanni camp (1hp left); Warrior2 :1SW
Warrior4 1S find an Assyrian camp( the searching for barbs pays off)
Sc3: 2SW, Sc2: 1NE;

Diplo: Contact with France: They have 2 cities beside their capital and are a bit backward. Since i have not the Money to open a WEmbassy first hand i sell CB for all their lousy 10 gold and open it now. Since Russia and China have settled very close to each other i try to sell contacts before they meet. Russia is completly broke so i sell MaoContact with Russia for alltheir Gold(10g)


1530(10): York finish Worker starts Barracks. Worker join the Jungleclearing on the Dyes;
Warrior1. rest and mark the position of the city for which the Settler from Nottingham head; Warrior2 1W; Warrior4 kills the Assyrian camp; Settler from Hastings has one more tile to the SE to reach his Settleposition (on Coast next to gems);
Sc3: 1S 1SW; Sc2: 1N;

finishing Diplo:
Pottery to France for all their 25 gold; Mysticism to China for the same;

All civs we know are broke; China and Babylon have 4 additional cities Russia3; Germany and France 2;


Save File:http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/prod-shadow-rowain-1500BC.zip

Rowain