Progenitor Civs; My Own Answer to Genericization

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@rightfuture
Guns,Germs, and Steel is really a bad representation. ... Diamond just made a lot of rash conclusions in order to sell a book. There are some worthwhile things in his book that better explain germs. ... The Easter Island inserts are totally wrong.

Totally agree.

@all
I really do not care about unique civs that just change their name. I would rather have some more detailed culture steps in techs. For example, Samurai is a tech to me that the Japanese have that sets them apart. I would rather have a technology tree that represents what Japan thought was important versus everyone has the same techs. China today still believes in Qi. The west does not. Is China just wrong? Every culture believes in different science, groupings of people, and etc. I would argue science itself is bias from culture in representing what is important. Just I will quit posting a rehash of my idea. It is all summed up in the Fabula Terra thread on civilizations. The aka prehistoric period you guys used I don't like, I think the type of tools people use effected everything else. I listed the stone tool categories in the Rise of the Homos thread. If you want to discuss either just bring the discussion there. Later.

Almost totally agree. In fact this is one of the areas that I feel C2C has gone off the rails.

 

[Hydromancerx]

In fact this is one of the areas that I feel C2C has gone off the rails.

Which part of what he said? I wish you would give a clear answer on what you think are "off the rails".

 

[johny smith]

I just will post some links on North America stuff that I feel is important, but the articles were just a quick search. I would look more if anyone really is interested.

A quick overview here.
http://employees.oneonta.edu/walkerr/Archaeology/A Culture History of North America.ppt

Overall timeline

The website associated.
http://www.museum.state.il.us/ismdepts/anthro/proj_point/points_timeline.html

Some projectiles in time periods.
http://www.uwlax.edu/mvac/PointGuide/PointGuide.htm

Another website with some info

http://inquiryunlimited.org/timelines/histNatAm.html

Anyway there is some baby step techs that could be placed to give more details. I do not know if anyone would want the different stone users as units.

I quick small article that I thought might sum up human inventions. I do not agree completely with it necessarily. The details are kinda summed up simple without more details. Anyway might give an overview of human milestones in technology. Its the top ten human inventions.

http://listverse.com/2007/10/07/top-10-ancient-inventions/

And just something to wet your whistle for south central america/northwest south america. More details would be good but anyway best I can find quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muisca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muisca_mythology

http://archaeology.about.com/cs/glossary/g/muisca.htm

A book if you want to look through it.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...u1iYxqB9G9r5cqCRQg#v=onepage&q=Muisca&f=false

I would propose for example north america tools the actual changes in stone tools. I would extend the amount of stone ages to equal size of the metal ages. I would want to represent many more pieces between it. The example is just within North America.

Agate Basin
Cahokia / Grant Side-Notched
Clovis
Durst Stemmed
Madison Triangular
Preston Corner-Notched
Raddatz Side-Notched / Osceola
St. Charles
Steuben Expanded Stemmed / McCoy Corner-Notched / Monona Stemmed
Waubesa Contracting Stem / Dickson Broad Blade

For example, axes lots of different types, then spears lots of different types, blades lots of different types. The microlith I would push for some Mesolithic point. Each would have culture techs and other specialize instruments associated with the level of tools that the people could make. Anyway does not matter because a Ice Age is needed with megafauna in my idea. The terrain changes are not going to happen, and I am not going to code it.

I should of never opened my mouth though. You guys continue on with what you want. I think the gene four type theories are very naive. Modern populations are not can not be explained that simple in my view. I am going back in hibernation now.

 

[DRJ]

I would propose for example north america tools the actual changes in stone tools. I would extend the amount of stone ages to equal size of the metal ages. I would want to represent many more pieces between it. The example is just within North America.

Agate Basin
Cahokia / Grant Side-Notched
Clovis
Durst Stemmed
Madison Triangular
Preston Corner-Notched
Raddatz Side-Notched / Osceola
St. Charles
Steuben Expanded Stemmed / McCoy Corner-Notched / Monona Stemmed
Waubesa Contracting Stem / Dickson Broad Blade

For example, axes lots of different types, then spears lots of different types, blades lots of different types. The microlith I would push for some Mesolithic point. Each would have culture techs and other specialize instruments associated with the level of tools that the people could make. Anyway does not matter because a Ice Age is needed with megafauna in my idea. The terrain changes are not going to happen, and I am not going to code it.

I should of never opened my mouth though. You guys continue on with what you want. I think the gene four type theories are very naive. Modern populations are not can not be explained that simple in my view. I am going back in hibernation now.

Come on, man! Don't be so defensive. I think you have very good ideas on this and I liked to see them concepted out and included.

Starting around 100000 BC and having some terrain changing Ice Ages on Earth Map would be a very nice feature (the multiple maps might help with that)!!! *we even could include more early human species aside neanderthals like homo erectus or 'hobit' Homo floresiensis.

We need big thinkers and you are surely one of them, so what about making yourself comfortable, get in the groove and sooner or later we will be able to realize your ideas, together with what's already been done and what's planned yet to be done (and at some point that includes a new engine, imho). Rome wasn't built in one day, most important is that here is the best mod team ever, with the most ambitious ideas, the most complex content etc. Making the early ages as accurate as possible is what no strategy game has done before so there is new ground (as well as the opposite of the arrow of time: the galactic era). Let's lay our differences aside and find common ground, stop hibernating, spring is coming^^

 

[rightfuture]

@rightfuture
Guns,Germs, and Steel is really a bad representation. Conquers always win in his book, and no technology is passed to the conquered. On his standards Mexico is just Spanish. As well maize (corn) should of never been spread because there is not huge east-west continent right where it came from. The east-west spread is silly I can tell you terrain varies more east to west than north to south in many cases. There exists pop science that wants to make money from their work like Jared Diamond did. Sometimes people make good theories that need that context to be seen. Diamond just made a lot of rash conclusions in order to sell a book. There are some worthwhile things in his book that better explain germs. Of course explaining to people that many areas did not have metal is good if people do not know. Generally his book creates geographic deterministic people. From his view it is not race, but geographic locations that explains differences in humans. Sorry just because you are born in Africa does not doom you. It is more that the majorities of resources are controlled by a few. The Easter Island inserts are totally wrong. Anyway I would not say there is a single all knowing book though that I would reference. 1491 has it points as well.

The Lucifer Principle is one of my favorite books.
Guns,Germs, and Steel I admit may be that type of book. I'm 1/5 of the way through it on the 1st read. I bought it because of the reviews and the personal recommendations of a friend (in military intelligence) as the next best thing to the Lucifer Principle.
I thought the ideas would be useful. I can be wrong.
I stand strong with The Lucifer Principle as having some great info.
I also have 1491 and plan on reading it next.
Anything else you think we should read/factor in?

I also think that my above posted articles are somewhat useful on genetic, culture, and technological spread for the idea of progenitor civs.
What did y'all think of those?

 

[johny smith]

@rightfuture
The articles sound interesting, but I really don't know anything more specific about them. I do not want to even get into a gene discussion because I know I do not know every recent theory. I know I am in the crossfire of either pure out of africa or multiregional views. I really don't care about the genes. Other than people abusing the theories.

@whoever
I made a tech grid with some ideas that might be of use. It will probably be overkill. I have not thought of each thing to place with them, but had some rough ideas. Anyway thought I would post it. It might help. I do not know. Oh forgot one thing. The names of eras do not match the dates really. I was just trying to have a guide to go by.

 

[DRJ]

I made a tech grid with some ideas that might be of use. It will probably be overkill. I have not thought of each thing to place with them, but had some rough ideas. Anyway thought I would post it. It might help. I do not know. Oh forgot one thing. The names of eras do not match the dates really. I was just trying to have a guide to go by.

The grid looks plausible for me although it would require a lot of effort to redo all prehistoric tech tree - but at the end I would go with what brings C2C to the earliest possible starting point and from there on the most accurate or logic way through the ice ages.

 

[johny smith]

I expanded on the skeleton tech tree if anyone is looking for tech ideas.

Anyway I posted here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11338917&postcount=207

I got to antiquity finally after going through copper, bronze, and iron. Of course still a rough draft.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I expanded on the skeleton tech tree if anyone is looking for tech ideas.

Anyway I posted here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11338917&postcount=207

I got to antiquity finally after going through copper, bronze, and iron. Of course still a rough draft.

I like this tech "tree" without links it isn't really a tree. I do have a couple of questions.

1) Is "Thrusting Spear" a stick with stone point or does it include the "Poking Stick" -> "Sharpened Poking Stick" -> "Fire Hardened Pointy Poking Stick" line?

2) Two trade related techs "Personal Ownership" and "Barter now for goods later" = contracts (clay figures sealed inside a clay pouch, 2 sets one for each person). Contracts seems to have been part of the spur for early writing as it replaced the cumbersome clay figures with marks on a clay tablet which each person had half of and matched up. It also lead to seals.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I expanded on the skeleton tech tree if anyone is looking for tech ideas.

Anyway I posted here.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11338917&postcount=207

I got to antiquity finally after going through copper, bronze, and iron. Of course still a rough draft.

You have some good ideas. Some of the order, naming and details I may disagree (mainly for game balance) with but I think some of these could be incorporated into the C2C tech tree.

For instance your "Prehistoric Medicine" would be our "Herbalism". Your "Pidgin Language" is our "Trade Language".

Also have you read the "Smithsonian Timelines of the Ancient World" book?

So what things would techs like Awls or Scraper give?

 

[johny smith]

@Dancing Hoskuld
The thrusting spear is more or less you standard spear but two handed. Hand spears are smaller. The spears well went every which or way. The projectiles are when we get to classic Native Americans spears. Heat Treatment was use to make the stone a little easier to work. But yes basically the beginning stone spear point.

Personal Ownership would need to come after I think Personal Decoration and Behavioral Modernity. The personal decoration is when they first thought look at this, and the behavioral modernity is of course human's ideas of permanent ownership. It may be earlier though.

@Hydromancerx
No I have not seen the book. Yes you are correct on the two techs they would be the same. Awls are used for drilling later tools. The bonus I would think would be on making bone and wood instruments for example. Or help the medicine if you need to drill. Scarpers are used for hides of course or scraping anything like bark or food. I could think of a lot things it could help with. The reason at the beginning it was needed for hides of course, and scraping meat off of animals. Anyway I wanted to link the techs in around them is why.

Edit: Racloir is a better scarper more or less that was about the time if I understand correctly slash and burn techniques began being used, but really are a Neanderthal better version.

 

[johny smith]

Oh ya and the first axe on the tree has no handle. We are talking about a stone in the hand. So anyway some naming could be changed. It is the similar use of the tool is why it is an axe in my mind. Anyway it is not a unit with a stone axe mounted on a stick.

Hafting is actually mounting these things on something.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If we are comparing trees I lumped ...

Stone Tools = Hammerstone, Axe
Fine Edged Tools = Scrapers, Awls
Axe Making = Hand-Axe
Flint Knapping = Flintkanpping
Bone Working = Bone Shaping
Carving = ?
Wood Working = Wood Working, Bark Working
Spear Making = Thrusting Spear
Spear Fishing = Harpoons, Hand Throwing Spear

You get the idea.

 

[johny smith]

If we are comparing trees I lumped ...

Stone Tools = Hammerstone, Axe
Fine Edged Tools = Scrapers, Awls
Axe Making = Hand-Axe
Flint Knapping = Flintkanpping
Bone Working = Bone Shaping
Carving = ?
Wood Working = Wood Working, Bark Working
Spear Making = Thrusting Spear
Spear Fishing = Harpoons, Hand Throwing Spear

You get the idea.

Hammerstone for example beats things into the ground was a placeholder kinda for prereq for portable shelter and the soft hammer percussion. Soft percussion is using softer that stone items to shape stones. So anyway Hammerstone and Axe are basic stones in hand.

The scrapers, awls, and burins was thinking more utility tools not weapons. Flintknapping is first use of flint. Bone working is using bones for whatever but not shaping the entire bone. Bone shaping was a later development shaping the entire piece of bone like big pieces like a mammoth bone.

Wood working is use like a stick, and shaping into a wooden point spear. Bark working was actually shaving the bark for food or medicine like aspirin. I left it vague because it did develop more with better tools.

Thrusting spears yes are your first spears. Harpoons and Hand Thrown Spears are not really the same. Harpoons get finer points and barbs with microliths. Microliths are when we start seeing the fine points. Projectiles are more normal points before microliths. The projectiles are advancement over the first bulkier spears. Anyway I think I got most things of course can back through it and adjust it.

So anyway I was thinking.
Cleaver is bulky axes basic 2 handed club someone with.
Hand axe smaller axes one handed
Thrusting Spear normal spear 2 handed
Harpoon used on sea mammals more slender and longer I think than handthrown spears
Handthrown spears are bulkier than harpoons, but not sure if the harpoons were one handed or not at the time.
Spearfishing is stabbing fish with a spear
Hand-thrown spears ranged attack not very far.
Bâton percé predecessor to the Atlalt but has different benefits for larger prey perhaps.
Atlatl is well the Atlatl
Blades are real like big knives

Anyway I hope that makes sense. I just quickly ran through the techs and did not associate each with specific units. I was more concerned with linking them in some logic sense, but techs after neolithic are kinda there at moment to think how to work them in a tree.

 

[johny smith]

I did not make the general point of them all. Harpoon range is farther then hand thrown spears, but the power is not necessarily there. All of the spears are range versus power. The blades versus axes are the similar to modern knives versus axes. The later Bâton Percé and Atlatl have leverage to help from another source and become range weapons later over hand-thrown spears. The harpoon continues use because defintely later is one handed and you can not get the same leverage in a boat with it. Bâton Percé I thought was more power versus the Atatl. Microburins are like the serrated weapons. So anyway there is always a trade off in range and power. Then you have basic ideas of course of slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The scrapers, awls, and burins was thinking more utility tools not weapons. Flintknapping is first use of flint. Bone working is using bones for whatever but not shaping the entire bone. Bone shaping was a later development shaping the entire piece of bone like big pieces like a mammoth bone.

I simplified to both small bones things like bone needles or bone tips to larger bones things like carved ivory or bone jewelry.

Thrusting spears yes are your first spears. Harpoons and Hand Thrown Spears are not really the same. Harpoons get finer points and barbs with microliths. Microliths are when we start seeing the fine points. Projectiles are more normal points before microliths. The projectiles are advancement over the first bulkier spears. Anyway I think I got most things of course can back through it and adjust it.

I was actually considering making a separate tech for the Throwing Spears. But for now they were clumped together.

Cleaver is bulky axes basic 2 handed club someone with.
Hand axe smaller axes one handed

I was working with the units I have so since there is only a Stone Axeman and Stone Spearman to chose from those are what I used. Thus much of my tech choices are based on the graphics available.

In short I have had to simplify many of the features. However over time I have gone back to refine things.

 

[johny smith]

Well you guys have now the basic guts of my idea. The idea creating different type of combat categories. The camp roaming around with people collecting different stones to match the type of categories. Obsidian I would see as generally a light stone for example. Each stone would effect these on top of it. I was thinking early specialist in making tools units, religious/political units, and then artist. The specialist would grow in the amount of types from the basic ones.

You would not have cities till way later. So anyway domestication of animals would occur with the camp. Meaning animals would not be a resource attached to the map. Plants would need to be gathered then later turned into a domesticated crop. The plants would not be attached to the map either at least not after original gathering of some. The materials/tools determine the era till at least antiquity. Metals are lighter stronger weapons replacing the stone tools.

Religion foundings would be adjusted to real timeline. Alternate tech trees for the cultures would need to match the perspective of the cultural group. Genes do not equal culture. Human tribes were not homicidal maniacs that wiped every group they conquered off the map. The genes were passed down from both sides. Every era you would have a tech that triggers another tech tree that gives a cultural identity.

I am wanting to rewrite the map placement. Ranged weaponry would need to be adjusted to match prehistoric maps. Gigantic animals would roam the area and you would have quest for spirituality or clout. Big name hero like animals. I mean the whole point is the awe of living in a large megafauna environment with ice. As the ice melts some land disappears.

So none of this is small: big map changes, tech tree totally rewired, civilizations getting a reality check, religions closer to reality, and the details of units and techs greatly increased. I do not think C2C is bad. I am just looking for something to make it worthwhile to do with the civilization game platform. I do not think I should bother with my idea. No one cares they are happy with how it is. I dislike the game design.

I do not want to pester anyone about it. If I have time I may fool with modding. I do not have the time now. I do not know when I will. I am not motivated to bother to find time. So perhaps if I get some free money and retire early maybe I could design something. Until then I am going to worry more about finishing my degrees. Hell by that time maybe I can actually use Remote Sensing imagery in a game instead of these over simple maps. I would like to see all of the different channels on a map that is for sure. Have fun. If you really want to go with my insane idea email me.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well thanks for all the info. I think we have more than enough to sort through and digest now.

Good luck if you get in the mood to mod again. You ideas are always unique and deep.

 

[RidetheSpiral23]

So how goes this proposition and how likely is it to be coming soon for C2C?

To get off the topic of tech tree changes, would it be possible to put into effect some sort of mechanic wherein multiple civs could have the same culture or to have some sort of cultural diffusion?

@Hydromancerx

What is it exactly that you work with usually for this mod and could I be of any assistance with this progenitor civ idea?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydromancerx

What is it exactly that you work with usually for this mod and could I be of any assistance with this progenitor civ idea?

I am usally the planer/designer of many of the features within the mod. This ranges from designing the tech tree, designing new units, new resources, new terrain, etc.

As for non-design contributions I mostly make new buildings, convert ZT2 models, make a bunch of button/icons for things, make new civics and even occasionally new promotions.

In short of am mostly the project designer and xml modder but I also dabble in graphics. This means I have my hands in many projects and work with many people on the team. Getting them all to fit together in harmony is one of the biggest tasks. Since different projects overlap from time to time.

As for your help, what would you want to help with? What are your skills?