Project preview; Early industrial units

[Venger]

Nice to see some pre-WWII era ships making it into production. Some notes...

1) SM, right now I'm using your Iron Frigate as my Ship of the Line, though it isn't really a ship of the line...a ship of the line is a sail bound boat with often 70+ cannonade, stacked two, three, even four decks high. I'd love to see a ship off the line, though the combat action might be a bear, trying to simulate all those cannons firing at different times...

2) I like the predreadnaught - your 16 gun job above really is an anachronism for the times. The twin guns was much more common, looks good.

3) The rice boy Honda exhaust on the improved ironclad has got to go. Plus nobody would put a gun facing their own stacks... I have high hopes for this unit to be one I can use as the true ironclad, and convert the existing ironclad to a weaker but resource free unit...too much like the goodship lollipop right now though...not sure about the paddlewheel either...is this Huck Finn's dreadnaught?

All in all, more great work...I love the concepts of the battlecruiser. In my mod which is going unchanged as I finish moving, I've added a corvette which fills a nice gap, and the Ship of the Line based on your Iron Frigate. Having a couple more ships would really fill in the naval timeline quite well...

RTFO...

Venger

 

[GenMarshall]

Orriginaly posted by Venger
...not sure about the paddlewheel either...is this Huck Finn's dreadnaught?

Possibly arround that time, Paddlewheel steamers were possibly getting phased out and replaced with the screw propeller.

I also have High hopes for Smoking Mirror's Pre-ww2(or ww1) ships .

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by Venger
Nice to see some pre-WWII era ships making it into production. Some notes...

3) The rice boy Honda exhaust on the improved ironclad has got to go. Plus nobody would put a gun facing their own stacks... I have high hopes for this unit to be one I can use as the true ironclad, and convert the existing ironclad to a weaker but resource free unit...too much like the goodship lollipop right now though...not sure about the paddlewheel either...is this Huck Finn's dreadnaught?

Venger

But I LIKE IT! I think it's a cool looking unit and in line with the sort of cartoonish commic relief of Civ 3. I little bit of fun with the units doesn't hurt.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

"2) I like the predreadnaught - your 16 gun job above really is an anachronism for the times. The twin guns was much more common, looks good."

I still think that ship should only have 2 guns per turret. You have the single guns on the Iron Clads, then you would have double guns on the Dreadnought, then you would have triple guns on the Battleship. I think that way would provide good visual distinction between the power of the respective units.

This is what you should base you Pre-Dreadnought/Dreadnought on:

Here's another image:

And another:

Note that all of them have the 2 gun turrets. Looks more "World War One-ish".

 

[TVA22]

Concerning Japanese battleships, the most distinctively Japanese battleships were the Yamato Class ships, certainly not pocket battleships by any measure of the word. They were the biggest, most powerful, (probably most impractical) battleships every made. They sported 18 inch guns (the biggest ever put on any other warship is 16) and were heavily armored, though their armor was thicker, it was not as advanced as the American Iowa Classes. These ships--according to American servicemen of the war, and if you look at pictures of them do in fact have a pagoda shaped superstructure ( the towers and buildings in between the guns, for all you non-battleship buffs). Go look up a picture online, and see for yourself. http://64.124.221.191/yamato01.jpg
That one is pretty good, and shows off the industrialized/modernized pagoda like shape of the superstructure.

Also, I think that the west has triumphed over the other nations militarily certainly, but all this talk on this thread about other cultures being smashed by western ones I think is highly preposterous. Cultures evolve, and as long as the civilization and the people survive, the culture still lives on. There isnt any culture on this earth today that hasnt borrowed from others, so its not as if European ones are pure and traditional whereas all others have been westernized at all. If you think that, then I encourage you to take a trip to Japan or China, or the middle east, or africa, and then tell us that those cultures have been completely eradicated by western ones.

 

[TVA22]

By the way, excellent units SM, can't wait to clutter up my build list with more of your fantastic units!!!

 

[Smoking mirror]

The predreadnaught ids progressing on schedule, i think I will leave the supper dreadnaught as it is, before WWII you can use the Predreadnaught- Later I may make a "true" WWII battleship like the HMS hood or the bismark but I think for Normal games of Civ III an advaced Coal powered battleship is needed.

What I said about cultures; Its not that western culture has smashed all the others, its more like its become predominant by Absorbing others ( the same way that chistianity became the dominant religion of the west by assimilating the atributes of all others), the result is a curiously bland mix where no cultural strain is predominant; everything ends up looking the same.
In china and india it is obvious where their cultural roots are, but with western culture, what is our dominat cultural heritige? Graeco-Roman? Sumero-babylonian? Celtic? Scandinavian? It is a mix of all those and more, but as with food- when you have too many competing flavours, the overall dish can be unsatisfying and even unpaletable- that is one of the reasons that western industrial culture leans towards cultural ambigousness and generic cultural design.

Anyway Ive' only got the death animation to do on the predreadnaught, I should be done tomorrow.

 

[ViceRoy]

Originally posted by TVA22
Also, I think that the west has triumphed over the other nations militarily certainly, but all this talk on this thread about other cultures being smashed by western ones I think is highly preposterous. Cultures evolve, and as long as the civilization and the people survive, the culture still lives on. There isnt any culture on this earth today that hasnt borrowed from others, so its not as if European ones are pure and traditional whereas all others have been westernized at all. If you think that, then I encourage you to take a trip to Japan or China, or the middle east, or africa, and then tell us that those cultures have been completely eradicated by western ones.

European or western culture has basically destructed the cultures of new world and that's what there have been talked about. European culture is the dominating one right now.
Japan is highly westernized culture even though it has own traditional values inside. But western culture has became universal concept. I'm not saying it's the best system or the only one but it has became the model how all people should live. Of course there are different kind of cultures but why you think islamic nations so much resist the influence of europeans? Because they know they will become westernized. Western culture is mostly culture of christianity with it's own morale values and such which have allowed high level of success in fields of science and materialized culture. At the sametime other cultures have suffered and have started to lose their identity and the differences between the cultures are coming more thin all the time. Other cultures are losing more than western culture but time will tell what happens. It's mostly about money, money and military power.

The european culture has got it success through the demolition and annihilation of other cultures. Of course who is happy and who's not is different question. And also it might happen that one day the whole capitalistic european culture will fall and we will start speaking chinese instead of english here and start eating rice a lot more...but before that european-north american culture holds the torch.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by Smoking mirror
The predreadnaught ids progressing on schedule, i think I will leave the supper dreadnaught as it is, before WWII you can use the Predreadnaught-

I'm sorry, SM, I didn't see your post on the Pre-Dreadnought. I don't know how I missed it! Well, this is exactly what I have in mind, and it's perfect!

Thanks a million.

Colonel.

 

[TVA22]

True, modernization has been the way of the world, and cultues such as Japan, as you noted, have modernized, but that, to me does not mean that they've lost their own culture. I suppose that you just choose to forget all the things western culture has borrowed from eastern ones--ie, making efficient cars (a product of Japanese lack of space, adapted very well into the American market) martial arts-- you can see a karate place on every street corner, not to mention in movies like The Matrix, The Replacement Killers, etc, the list of those goes on and on. Or how about food? Lots of people already ahem... "eat rice a lot more." All I'm trying to say is Western culture did not defeat these civilizations and reign supreme, western military did, and thats why the world is modernized, not by virtue of strong european culture. Lets not forget, Christianity is only 1 of the major world religions, at least according to size of the following. And while cultures like Japan have in fact borrowed from the west substantially, the Japanese have a uniqe ability to borrow someone elses idea, then mesh it with their own culture so it becomes uniqely Japanese, take the Chinese alphabet for example, or the first firearms set into Japan by the Portugese--or the battleship.

The only point I'm trying to make is, if you have any knowledge of the Japanese and Chinese, (and I'm sorry, my knowledge of the middle east and africa is limited) then you'll know that those nations have stayed more the same than they've changed. At least when you get past the skin of it. At least in that part of the world, which I'm most familiar with, which I study, and have traveled to on several occations, European culture does not "carry the torch." It has only made a contribution, in the same way Japanese and Chinese culture has made a contribution in the west.

 

[Smoking mirror]

The predreadnaught is finished, going to upload it soon- I had a few glitches in the animating process, like the death being a bit jerky, and the FunnelSmoke in the attack animatiuon looking a bit "elastic"- but thats the thing with "live" animation, you realy cant tell what its going to look like till the unit is animated, and by then its too late. Its all experience for next time.

 

[ViceRoy]

I think I misunderstood you first but I see your point better now…
I have tried to study different cultures and I'm no way expert on any of these subjects…especially what comes to Africa and Middle-East.
But I have tried to find patters why the western culture is spread so large and when I say "culture" I don't say art and stuff but the way of materialized every day living.
And Western nations hold the torch in my opinion when it comes to political and commercial power in overall. One of the keys to this have been the Christian religion. What I meant was that Christianity has had influence to europeans itself not to other cultures. The catholic view has basically given reason to spread it and the protestant view has basically given the tools (example work moral) to do it.

I think that China and Japan are special cases. Even though they were once but into their knees by european military powers they have efficiently kept their stand. But I think China is still in verge of crisis as it faces "the threat" of capitalism and will possible meet it soon in the future. Japan has been always succesful on that what you described, taking something out of other culture and then making it's it own. I believe Japan will stay that way and that makes it really special in it's own way. But does it have the power to spread that culture to Africa or to Middle-East? No.
I think those two nations have tried to stay as fortresses standing and not giving up to foreign influences. Of course Japan tried just before WW2 but it failed as it faced the nuclear bomb.

I eat rice almost everyday but that doesn't mean all others eat it. Western culture usually takes something out of other culture but I wouldn't call it "culture exchange" but more like "profit making". One of those is the way how martial arts has been commercialized for the use of "common people". Basically example Karate and meaning of black belt has lost it's essence in the process. Even though many practioners say that they understand Karate…I find their knowledge of it rather thin. Basically really learning martial art would need one to know the history and philosophy behind it and not only the normal practices. But this isn't really happening, is it? In my opinion there aren't really "martial arts" anymore in Europe but more like "self-defence" methods. This is of course just my view…and it's very dependant what do you practice and where.

Those movies that you mentioned…Well I think many of eastern martial art actors like Jackie Chan and Jet Li have made clowns of themselves going into hollywood. Just look the difference between "Once upon a time in China" and "Romeo must die". I find the difference is great and it shows what those actors had to sacrifice to get into Hollywood. They had to lose their real identity and became Circus animals that can show trick or two when westerners want it. That doesn't mean westerners really understand anything about Kung fu -movies.

As you said cultures must evolve. European culture changed into american culture…And as you can see United States is only superpower of the world right now. Maybe China will be some day but it's long road to go for those nations that haven't followed in the footsteps of scientifically advanced and industralized western culture. So I think it's fact that western culture is dominating in overall. One of the things that must be recognized is the fact that we are talking english here in internet not japanese
Of course there are areas where this isn't strictly true but who's asking them?
Nobody, unless they have some green on their pocket.

 

[TVA22]

We're speaking english here, and we speak it as a language of commerce simply because of the British Empire, plain and simple. And I mostly agree with your points, though I do see it as cultural exchange, but I think you and I will have to agree to disagree. About capitalism in China, I disagree that they're facing crisis. China is a nation well suited to communist rule, socially, culturally, and historically. Not to say that the Chinese people like being ruled with an iron fist, but when you examine the pillars of their society, like confucian ethics, and the history of the dynasties, the way they rose and fell, it becomes obvious that they may actually be better suited to communism than capitalism. To keep up they will have to open up a bit, sure, but thats what they've been doing since Jiang Zimen became the head of the party after the Tienamen Square fiasco. Since then theres been a major shift in party policy in China, one towards commercialization, and capitalization, but still maintaining their totalitarian connections with the old CCP. And since their economy has grown 17% in the last 10 years (give or take a few) I'd say they're doing quite well at it. Go to the new republic page if you want to see an article on this subject. Look up "why capitalism won't bring democracy to China."

 

[ViceRoy]

about China.
I think too that communism could be better fit for China than capitalism but I believe certain changes will happen. Example how the internet is controlled will be major issue in China in near future.
What I meant is that China is being pressured to change their ways by outside forces and we see do they fall because of that pressure or can they truly stay as they are. I think it's about how China will face certain questions like example situation of Taiwan and North Korea.

I'm not here to critizice China in anyway or it's system. I'm just saying it won't be easy to China stand alone. Democracy in many coutries that say to be really democratic nowadays (some western countries as well) is more than questionable right now...so even if China would say to be democratic...it's different thing what it truly would mean. It's just wordplay. But I believe China will have more materialized culture in the future and that's major issue when talking about issues of ecology example. Same goes to India.

What I see is that your opinions are very close to mine...I think it's just small details that we don't agree and also we use different expressions for same things...so I think we mostly agree.

 

[GenMarshall]

How are the Dreadnought (Coal powered Battleship) and the improved/super Ironclad comming Smoking Mirror?

 

[GenMarshall]

Originaly posted by Smoking Mirror
I had a few glitches in the animating process, like the death being a bit jerky, and the FunnelSmoke in the attack animatiuon looking a bit "elastic"

I did not even notices the glitches , I just assume that it was just the 'wind" effecting the smoke. I cant wait for the Dreadnought (Coal Powered Battleship) and the Improved/Super Ironclad .

 

[Smoking mirror]

Culture, is by definition a product of tradition, the older the tradition, the "more impressive" the culture- But strong cultural tradition, when linked with a rigidly inflexible religious doctrine can make progress very difficult. What is generaly called "Westernization" is actualy a rejection of traditional culture, heralded by the begining of the enlightenment.
Beginning in the 17th century people in the west began to question the heritige of scientific tradition; Before the enlightenment the idea of scientific progress was almost non existant- people learned from their predecessors and the ultimate ideal of scientific acheivement was the "realization of the knowledge of the ancients", in the 16th and 17th century this search for the lost knowledge of antiquity actualy began to turn up knowledge (from the greeks, preserved by eastern orthodox christianity and islamic scholars) that called in to question exepted views of the nature of the universe. People began to see that just because an idea has been the exepted version of reality for generations does not mean that it is infalible.
The same went for institutions, religous, social, military, scientific and cultural. In order to "rationalize" the nature of western life and culture, it was required to split from the cultural tradition; Old orders were gradualy destroyed (For an example see the fall of the knightly orders to be replaced by conscripted peasant armed forces- the backbone of the new western armies) and replaced by a new "Western culture". In the centuries following the enlightenment non western civilizations either clung hoplessly to their cultural and social traditions (like the muslim rulers of india and the middle east- apart from a few noteable exeptions) Or voluntarily "westernized" them selves (like the eastern orthodox russians), mixing their cultural traditions and religious history with a new rationalized, progressive scientific and social regime.

Western culture is actualy a vacum of culture, the "western" cultural revolution could actualy have hapened anywhere that there was a weak cultural tradition, it just happened that in the 1400-1700s western europe was uncovering a wealth of information that had the potential to shatter the traditional scentific views of religious dogma (the significance of the discovery of the americas was not fully realized untill it was coupled with later scientific advances). The real catalist however was the weakness of "Western" culture (europe, north africa and the middle east) because the area had never beed united by any unifying culture (even at the time of the roman empire, much of european territory was under "barbarian" control- while the romans were always trading territory with a second partner and cultural rival, such as the second persian empire).

Anyway, I'm going to slightly rework the Super iron clad slightly before finishing the animation and I'm also working on some early industrial infantry and cavalry, the first of which will be the "soldier", representitive of Oliver cromwells "New-model army".

 

[Smoking mirror]

And here is a preview flic of the mounted version, I think its a good unit for upgrading your knights, not as heavy armoured but faster and more flexible, a good combination in an age where firearms were making heavy all encompassing steel armour obsolete. The oponents of the Early cavalry wouuld be lightly armoured early musketmen, the infantry vesion of this unit would be used, protected by seperate musket divisions, to attack citys and fortifications- for both I am going to use ADM values of 5/2/ and 1 for the infantry, 2 or 3 for the cavalry.
If the horse animation works out OK I may do some other cavalry units, such as a lancer, or a Crusader knight.

Heres the default flc

 

[Smoking mirror]

Well the Dragoon is going very well indeed! I thought I'd start with the Running animation, usualy the hardest to do, and then do the others when I got that right. So having now finished the run all I need is attack and death, so I should get this done real soon (found an exploit to cut my production time in half, so I will go back and finish the Light WWII infantry afterwards- now I know I can finish it in half the time ).
Here is a little preview of the running animation, its not quite as smooth as the cavalry from civ III, but my next mounted unit, the crusader (or dragoon lancer) should help sort that out with added experience;

 

[Smoking mirror]

A couple of questions; Which would people prefer, a Crusader Knight on horseback or a 18th century lancer? A third choice would be aN acient era Heavy horseman, requiring both Iron and horses he would have good attack and defence qualities and would be the precusor to the knight- like the horsemen used by the Franks.
Also should I change the horse model? I'm no animal expert, are there any glaring anatomical problems with the model? If I do a Crusader what order should I do, I was thinking a standard white with red (civ coloured) cross would be good for a Knights templar, and if people wanted a "Colourless"-no nationality crusader, it would be easy to make the cross Red, but unaffected by civ colour changes.