Project proposal: Our community to beat the deity

[Long try]

This is what I've been thinking for a time.

THE SITUATION

• Our community: Civfanatics is 1 of the most long-lived game fora out there, partly because Civ4 is such a marvelous game, as evidenced by @alwalo 's thread, and also because we have great members. Though time is an irresistible force and while all games' fora dwindle with it including ours, we continually defy this flow with contents that engage the interest of almost the whole community, such as that famous Wonderbread economy thread that explored an uncharted strategy of a game that was released more than a dozen years ago.

• Me: An 'oldbie' who hasn't played Civ4 for years. I read a quantity of high quality gems here but have forgotten most of them by now. That doesn't mean the knowledge is completely wiped out, I can recall parts of them if someone helps nudge me about it. I was an Emperor player, but may have downgraded by some levels by now. Knowing that, my ambition is still to win Deity a couple of times in my life. More importantly, I feel I'm a little in debt with all the great people here and want to contribute back in 1 way or another.

THE AIM

• Is to help enliven our community by some degree by delivering quality contents. IMO people like something because it's interesting, and especially if they can contribute to it, help it.
• For me to squarely conquer the highest level of difficulty, and
• To leave a legacy that encourage other newbies (yes they're still freshly coming for Civ4) to achieve the same, in the form of a neatly prepared 'handbook' covering everything I'd learned from that journey. Those newbies today will be the veterans tomorrow who keep the community going on even if some old players go.

THE NOT-SO-DETAILED DETAILS

I will reinstall Civ4 and start a fair Deity game, with settings I had always been cringed (huge map) and/or never completed (marathon... ok maybe epic). I will make it my goal to finish it no matter what and no matter how long it takes. These days I think my determination is tough enough (I set a goal to read every single APOD page in 4 years & now as 2 years passed, I'm still going strong). Along the way, I will need a tons of help from you guys. All the decisions will be thoroughly discussed in a thread and important ones will get voted on a poll website. It will be as democratic as possible, and I will follow the decisions made by the poll, though ultimately I am the one responsible for the action. Together we will beat the AIs or go to the bitter end. Either way, I will compile everything I learn or re-learn from the playing of the game and put them into 1 place: a short summary in case of a loss and a full-fledged guide if we snatch victory. Believe me, it will be a good read, for if I had to choose 2 traits to describe me, like in Civ, 1 would be Organized

THE NEEDS

• I will commit at least a particular amount of time each and every day for the project, which includes playing the match, uploading the pics, updating the progress & discuss stuffs here, and learn lessons from the Deity-slayers. Then I will have to organize knowledge into a complete handbook, a type of legacy that I will contribute back to the community for saying goodbye to Civ.
• You will need to have an incredible amount of patience, for I am not the brightest player, and I will assume the role of a newbie in the game, asking for the tiniest things. Oh, and no shadow-playing or spoiling in any way, please, because nothing discourages me more than seeing someone has done that very similar thing already. Besides, knowing some twists and turns beforehand will affect your advice to me, and I consider it a bit of cheating.

That's pretty much all. There are more things in my head that I want to say, but you get the gist of it. If you're willing to help, vote for it in the poll. Or vote if you don't agree anyway. Let's see if I will be able to start rolling 'just some more turns' once again, or not.

TL;DR
Now here's a deal. There will be an epic deity challenge. You help me with pretty much everything. I pay back in form of 1 of the best guides ever made. Deal?

 

[Wrathful]

Wow, this sounds like a really great idea! If you go through with this plan I would try to help whenever I could. That being said, the task of creating a "guide to beat Civ 4 Deity" is very challenging. This is a complex game, and there are so many variables that can change how a map is played. Even if you did pull off a Deity win, I don't believe that would be enough to create a guide for beating Deity. It would probably be good enough for Immortal and below, but to beat Deity you can't just apply a single strategy every time. You have to adapt to what the map gives you.

For reference, here's a link to an old thread in which the OP asked for a "Guide to beating Deity". Of particular interest is post #17, in which kossin (a very skilled Deity player) argues that such a guide would be "very hard to understand", "unbelievably long", and not very beneficial to readers. I personally believe that it is possible to create a Deity Guide, but the task would be long and arduous due to the complex nature of Deity. There's so much content to cover. Worker management, slavery, city placement, research, tech trades, diplomacy, barbarians...each of these topics and more would all need special consideration in a Deity guide. So yes, the guide would be quite long and not an easy read by any means. However, if done right I think a Deity guide could be a great resource for players aspiring to beat the difficulty. Your Organized trait would certainly help with the creation of this guide!

Please don't take this as me trying to dissuade you from this idea. I would love to see a well-crafted guide for beating Deity. Just make sure you don't underestimate what you set out to accomplish.

 

[Long try]

Wow, this sounds like a really great idea! If you go through with this plan I would try to help whenever I could.

Thank you my friend!

That being said, the task of creating a "guide to beat Civ 4 Deity" is very challenging. This is a complex game, and there are so many variables that can change how a map is played. Even if you did pull off a Deity win, I don't believe that would be enough to create a guide for beating Deity. It would probably be good enough for Immortal and below, but to beat Deity you can't just apply a single strategy every time. You have to adapt to what the map gives you.
For reference, here's a link to an old thread in which the OP asked for a "Guide to beating Deity". Of particular interest is post #17, in which kossin (a very skilled Deity player) argues that such a guide would be "very hard to understand", "unbelievably long", and not very beneficial to readers. I personally believe that it is possible to create a Deity Guide, but the task would be long and arduous due to the complex nature of Deity. There's so much content to cover. Worker management, slavery, city placement, research, tech trades, diplomacy, barbarians...each of these topics and more would all need special consideration in a Deity guide. So yes, the guide would be quite long and not an easy read by any means. However, if done right I think a Deity guide could be a great resource for players aspiring to beat the difficulty. Your Organized trait would certainly help with the creation of this guide!

My appreciation for your pointing out that thread. That's also the reason why I didn't specifically mention that the resulted handbook would be a Deity guide. Nevertheless, I expect my skill will be at least past Immortal if we're able to win in the project, so my aim is for new readers to reach Immortal after reading the book. Beyond that, just as @kossin said, it would be up to them to make the final leap crossing the line, just like I'm planning to do now

Please don't take this as me trying to dissuade you from this idea. I would love to see a well-crafted guide for beating Deity. Just make sure you don't underestimate what you set out to accomplish.

No, your heartfelt comment did inspire me instead, @Wrathful. I know that my part of the deal would require enormous effort, dedication and even sacrifice. That's why I didn't dive head-on into it but made it a proposal & a poll. I know that only with the help of hella lots of people will I be able to pull off such feat, so I'm really hoping to be able to receive it from you guys/gals.

 

[sampsa]

A good starting point to understanding what it takes to beat deity would be Lain's youtube-channel. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBiPHqnZ3mwIqtraltox6jg

 

[Long try]

That would need hundreds of hours of watching, & I'm not sure I'll be able to reproduce that gameplay because, as stated somewhere before, each match is different. My approach to this is to get 1st hand experience by playing the game with you all. We will solve each and every unique problem by on-field analysis & solution finding. Frankly, I think that'd be much more fun than watching hours of playing, because our ability to concentrate is limited. By the end of Lain's typical video length of 1+ hour, I might have already forgotten an awesome trick or a profound insight he said at the beginning.

 

[lymond]

By the way, this thread would be better placed in the Strategy & Tips forum. You can request this by clicking on the "Report" link on the OP post and asking for the thread to be moved.

I'm not sure what you current comfort level is in terms of difficulty. Are you Immortal player, Emperor, less than that? Deity is a far different animal than any of the lower difficulties. While I certainly respect your idea and effort here, if you are not even yet comfortable on say Immortal level, this will indeed be very challenging. Shadow games are highly encouraged though over in S&T. It may be more suitable to do such a game for a more comfortable difficulty level you have yet to achieve, gradually working your way up to a Deity level challenge. Deity is an enormous jump in difficulty.

As for a guide for Deity. Not sure. Between War Academy and S&T Articles subforum, many guides have accumulated over the years, and learning is really a summation of the info taken from these guides as whole. An individual guide for a level like Deity would be hard, but at minimum could include some of the basic concepts one needs to know to achieve success at the level, such as tricks and stuff to deal with Deity level AI, how to catch up techwise, and how to exploit a certain and likely short-lived advantage.

As for videos like Lain's (in year's past I learned a lot from Absolute Zero's vids in moving up levels), it is not really a matter of watching entire videos or the series, but watching some of certain parts like the openings, which are so important. It may behoove you to at least watch a bit of his videos before pursuing this effort.

But yes, folks over in S&T can help a lot as you play with advice, but ultimately most of it comes down to the player's ability to absorb and use that information....in-game.

edit: ah..I see you played quite a bit on IMM in the past, but haven't played in some time. Just saying you might want to freshen up a bit before going full blown Deity.

 

[Wrathful]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with posting an Immortal game in the Strategy and Tips forum as a "warm-up". Shadow games are a great way to improve your play. I also agree with watching Lain's videos. You can start with his Isabella game; it's pretty short (about 4 hours or so).

 

[Long try]

As for videos like Lain's (in year's past I learned a lot from Absolute Zero's vids in moving up levels), it is not really a matter of watching entire videos or the series, but watching some of certain parts like the openings, which are so important. It may behoove you to at least watch a bit of his videos before pursuing this effort.
But yes, folks over in S&T can help a lot as you play with advice, but ultimately most of it comes down to the player's ability to absorb and use that information....in-game.

Who do you think is more suitable to watch for this kind of mission, AZ or Lain?
BTW, is it true that there are folks in S&T who never/rarely venture over into General Discussion land and vice versa?

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with posting an Immortal game in the Strategy and Tips forum as a "warm-up". Shadow games are a great way to improve your play. I also agree with watching Lain's videos. You can start with his Isabella game; it's pretty short (about 4 hours or so).

Sounds good enough. I will consider starting an Immortal warm-up game in S&T also to have a feel of how to do it properly forum-wise when the real thing comes. After that looong exercise then some dozens of watching hours may boost my level a bit further...

 

[Fish Man]

Who do you think is more suitable to watch for this kind of mission, AZ or Lain?
BTW, is it true that there are folks in S&T who never/rarely venture over into General Discussion land and vice versa?
Sounds good enough. I will consider starting an Immortal warm-up game in S&T also to have a feel of how to do it properly forum-wise when the real thing comes. After that looong exercise then some dozens of watching hours may boost my level a bit further...

@Lain is far superior, IMO. There are several reasons:

1. Lain is part of the new generation of civ players who, not to sound elitist, but have much more refined tactics and deploy strategies that older players haven't had the audacity to dream of yet or haven't really mastered - like iso doubleastro bulbing, the spy economy, and of course amphibious grenadiers. This means he can show how to effectively deal with far more situations than AZ.

2. AZ's games are...sloppy, for lack of a better word. He's awesome and a great learning resource, don't get me wrong, but also makes quick/hurried decisions, sometimes really bad ones that are egregious mistakes in hindsight.

3. AZ plays really high-risk (as in...never go archery, workerstealing, choking on deity, and idiotrushing with too few units even if they're good UUs), which has never resulted in a loss but only I suspect since he plays mostly NC maps which are all but guaranteed to have some strategic resource (usually copper or horses) nearby.

4. AZ is somewhat of a one-trick pony in that the thing he's best at is a lib cuir rush, and most other things he gets...dangerously and sometimes unacceptably late attack dates that results in him getting stuck in medieval treb slogs while the rest of the world trades up to 1400s infantry. Lain has almost never had that problem - he wins, consistently, whether it's with pults or trebs or cannons and not just with mounted.

5. AZ doesn't know how to navigate the lategame. Past cuirs/rifles/cavalry he makes some pretty questionable choices (like skipping a hammer economy for US rush-buy, which is literally 1/4 as efficient, and not realizing the power of communism, the necessity of reaching AL to match the AI hammer-wise, or being able to show knowledge of air combat).

6. Alright I'm just gonna say it, Lain is almost indisputably better. This is not to disparage AZ - since we all stand on the shoulder of giants - but even if we look at straight up win rate, Lain plays sometimes masochistic maps even I wouldn't touch, and makes the right choices pretty darn consistently.

 

[lymond]

Ha..ha..poor AZ getting no love from U. In his defense though, AZ plays his vids more for entertainment value than learning. He plays much faster and generally strictly pursues military victories. Lain is indeed more of a student of the game, playing far more deliberately than AZ. So yeah, Lain is better for learning to play on Deity. Just watching the early couple of videos in a series will help a lot toward managing expansion and barbs on Deity.

With that said, AZ is actually very good at the game - moreso than given credit. There are certainly some Deity tricks one can pick up from his games. Also, playing the game while making a video is not an easy.

 

[Fippy]

Also in defense of AZ, he found out many tricks that are now common when almost nobody knew of them.
He's also very funny at times, Lain has much "why are you doing this.." or rng complaints. More serious.

No arguments about Lain being better now, expected thou since AZ plays many different games.
But for pure fun purposes i let old AZ run in the background sometimes, esp really creative tries like Landsknechts.
AZ often sounded honestly excited, and uplifting.

 

[Wrathful]

AZ did play some hard starts too...check out this one.

Lain and AZ have different approaches to the game. I'd say AZ was just there to have a good time, whereas Lain is more serious and dedicated to mastering the game. Lain does have a dry sense of humor though, stuff like "famous last words" for example.

 

[Fish Man]

Ha..ha..poor AZ getting no love from U. In his defense though, AZ plays his vids more for entertainment value than learning. He plays much faster and generally strictly pursues military victories. Lain is indeed more of a student of the game, playing far more deliberately than AZ. So yeah, Lain is better for learning to play on Deity. Just watching the early couple of videos in a series will help a lot toward managing expansion and barbs on Deity.

With that said, AZ is actually very good at the game - moreso than given credit. There are certainly some Deity tricks one can pick up from his games. Also, playing the game while making a video is not an easy.

Also in defense of AZ, he found out many tricks that are now common when almost nobody knew of them.
He's also very funny at times, Lain has much "why are you doing this.." or rng complaints. More serious.

No arguments about Lain being better now, expected thou since AZ plays many different games.
But for pure fun purposes i let old AZ run in the background sometimes, esp really creative tries like Landsknechts.
AZ often sounded honestly excited, and uplifting.

Y'all make good points. Maybe I am being too hard on AZ. Despite his many frustrations he was truly passionate about the game as a hobby. Really looked up to him about a year or two ago when I was just learning the ropes, but maybe I was just disappointed when both Lain and I started beating deity maps he considered impossible or lost horribly to, including NC200. He at least has a very firm grasp on the basics, and was truly the best of the best back in the day. And stuff like cuir rushes or libbing steel were groundbreaking in the times when he played them. I remember the TMIT days where about nationalism was widely accepted as the best thing you could lib most games, and US rush-buy economy was considered the standard way to fight modern era wars (yikes)...we've come a long way.

And yeah, @Wrathful is right too. I personally like Lain's style of humor better - dry, sarcastic, pessimistic. Kinda describes my style too.

 

[lymond]

My makes a good point about AZ doing this years and years before anyone else was, pioneering some of the good things we do now. AZ reached a certain point and then did not play for a long time, picking it up a game now and then. Major props to Lain though...he puts out great instructional stuff now

Speaking of AZ, he's live streaming a IV game on YT as we speak (um..type) edit: currently, it appears he is ottoderping the world with cannons, jans, and grens.

 

[Fish Man]

My makes a good point about AZ doing this years and years before anyone else was, pioneering some of the good things we do now. AZ reached a certain point and then did not play for a long time, picking it up a game now and then. Major props to Lain though...he puts out great instructional stuff now

Speaking of AZ, he's live streaming a IV game on YT as we speak (um..type)

Yep, was just watching it a while ago! Situation doesn't look too promising, tho...is it just me or does Kublai have the potential to just turn into a wrecking ball and vassal 2-3 people more games than usual?

 

[lymond]

Yep, was just watching it a while ago! Situation doesn't look too promising, tho...is it just me or does Kublai have the potential to just turn into a wrecking ball and vassal 2-3 people more games than usual?

Looks like KK has 3 vassals. AZ is fighting Germany and Egypt and appears to be winning. I think he wants to vassal those two at some point.

edit: he's drafting

 

[ArchGhost]

I see Lain as the stronger player for sure (and even at their peaks, if you consider now to be Lain's), and not to be apologist in tone, but he's more in practice than AZ since its been awhile since AZ played regularly. Watched his recent Japan stream game (5 days ago or so) and i was almost screaming at the tablet when he broke away a vassal through a demand and was disagreeing with his chat about why, heh. Again, in his defense (and admitted in stream) he's not as devoted to the game with his time anymore. I wasn't happy with his position in the Immortal level game either but the man has forgotten more about high level Civ4 than I've learned so far and it was a "for fun" concept game, so credit due to him. He lost a few of the more recent NC games in the last year or two due (I did not watch through the Willem one but he called it "easy" in the opening minutes, assume he won that one) to what I would call stubbornness, something that keeps me from seriously taking on Deity so I feel that's a valid examination of why he might fail those maps.

Both are great resources for learning the game, but in different ways. AZ's videos are shorter and more straight up, he's a very aggressive player and a good showcase of how that style can pay off, more compressed delivery (nice when you don't have time to watch a 14 part Lain epic) but a lot of knowledge falls through he cracks as even though he'll comment on things like mechanics and decision making it'll be in a very quick manner and dropped without a lot of examination. A lot of the "why" falls short with him though he's a good demonstrator. I learn most well through these aside quips that the player makes in real time, as it helps me encapsulate their thought process as much as about the game mechanics, and he can fall short a bit here. We also learned more about the game since his prime and the meta has adjusted accordingly, so his play may seem "worse" in retrospect as well.

Lain is a more meticulous sort, and takes his time in some games. He has a stated goal to win every game he plays, if at possible, which is why he does things "slower" or "more carefully" like teching archery - often - which is very unlike AZ. Lain however discusses at length some things (good example is his most recent Random Personalities game where he spends time musing about which personalities are which in his game) short of actually busting out charts or spouting links to threads; this kind of stuff would be entirely unknown to the player unless they came here and read it themselves first, so he's very informative in how it applies practically in his game.

I learn just as many wacky tricks from either player, or see awesome showcases of what one can do in a game (AZ's Gandhi-Oracle-CoL axe rush or Lain's epic takedown of huge JC in modern warfare from a typical crappy Lain 1-good-city start lol) but I take away more from Lain's style, and can better replicate the things he teaches me about the game because of the greater detail, even in his losses. And I think he wanted to commentate games to help with his English? Mission accomplished imo, I never had trouble understanding him.

Personality-wise I find them both entertaining. AZ's blatant lack of respect for the AIs all game or Lain's spiteful attitude towards them I can both identify with, heh. But the difference to me is more like this: If I wanted to see a feat, or just see someone thrash a game setting I find hard, I'd watch AZ for the lesser amount of nadir. If I want to learn to do it myself, I'd watch Lain and watch him rip it the hell apart with no mercy.

Also shout out to Imploading, I like his stuff too though I must admit I haven't watched as much of him.

 

[Long try]

@Undefeatable : All that analysis and you voted "can't help / don't want to". You are evil... Sidious.
@ArchGhost : Based on your post, I think Lain is more suitable since I want the project game to be a careful approach that maximizes the chances to win. Anyway, are there any mods that combine BUG/BULL/BAT with an advanced, upgraded AI?

 

[Fish Man]

@Undefeatable : All that analysis and you voted "can't help / don't want to". You are evil... Sidious.
@ArchGhost : Based on your post, I think Lain is more suitable since I want the project game to be a careful approach that maximizes the chances to win. Anyway, are there any mods that combine BUG/BULL/BAT with an advanced, upgraded AI?

The only objection I have is funky settings, tbh...since anything above normal speed makes the game a lot easier. Too easy, in fact. So here's my counterproposal: deity pangaea/fractal/continents standard normal speed, and I'll be more than happy to help. Perhaps I am really evil and want you to suffer under harder settings. Or maybe I think that these settings will help both you and new players learn better, since it's what's commonly accepted as "normal" and the most fun to play as (spoiler alert...it's the latter, combined with the fact that other veterans are much more likely to offer help since those are the settings they have interest/experience in). What say you?

 

[Olafeson]

Now here's a deal. There will be an epic deity challenge. You help me with pretty much everything. I pay back in form of 1 of the best guides ever made. Deal?

That would be interesting, but i think mostly a learning expierence for yourself. There are a lot of very indepth guides on this forum already. Both using statistics from a large samplesize of game, as well as mathematical statistic found in the game files. As well as information directly taken out of the game files.

I think if you dig long enough in old forum threads you can find a guide for a nearly everything. What kind of guide do you have in mind?