[RD] Prostitution

Who cares about the dignity of anyone involved?


I do. Of course I also care about the dignity of lawyers so maybe my level of concern for personal service professions differs from yours.

Just thinking of all the societies that have tried throughout history to eliminate it, WITHOUT SUCCESS. So the goal should be to make it safer. And the government could make a few bucks off of it. I doubt you'll ever be able to eliminate some of the bad aspects, but having it being illegal certainly isn't going to fix those problems.


Saying that because we cannot prevent all instances we should therefore permit it is not a compelling argument. Poor regulation would be worse than prohibition.

You can imagine regulation as a spectrum running from laiseez faire to highly effective (and necessarily invasive) regulation. Just legalizing it without regulation would result in a significant increase in human misery as people get taken advantage of by pimps, callous johns, and untrustworthy prostitutes. There does not seem to be a point along that spectrum that encompasses both safe regulation and would be presently acceptable politically.
 
Saying that because we cannot prevent all instances we should therefore permit it is not a compelling argument. Poor regulation would be worse than prohibition.
Who said anything about poor regulations.
 
I did. You just quoted me saying it.
 
The wonderful world of the internet in Sweden does provide TONS of opportunities for casual sex hook-ups — all kinds of prerefences catered to. It's just not supposed to be any money changing hands. Now, that might in the final instance turn out to be something negotiable, depending on the individuals involved. And clearly the rest of us will never know.

This is true not only of Sweden. Sex has become increasingly "easier to get", and that has reflected both on the number and on the earnings of prostitutes.

Specifically to the situation you describe, that prohibition on brothels can keep people away from what is generally a safer and more preferred environment for inexperienced sex workers. It means the choice is to either go independent without being ready to, or to submit oneself to worthing in a legal grey zone or outright illicit environment.

It's the sort of needless restriction sex worker organisations tend to agitate against precisely because it remains a detriment to safety and security and to accessing social services.

I strongly dispute that. How exactly do you thing it goes for an inexperienced sex worker? You would wish there were some "nice" guys or gals saying "Here now, this is a normal way to make money, come and prostitute yourself. It's really nice to be our collaborator! And if you're inexperienced don't work, we'll break you in to all kinds of sex for pay."? It is abhorrent. It is also sad when they do it on their own, for self-employed prostitutes do have to start some way. Usually the first time is not a rational decision but an act of despair due to some pressing need. Not meant to be the beginning of a "career" but... it was easy money and that person starts doing it more and more often, until it becomes a career.
My point is that (most of) these beginners won't go to a brothel anyway, because they don't intend to employ themselves as prostitutes initially. The "employment" phase comes later, and at that point they believe they know very well how to handle things on their own. A brothel will only be eating into their income and forcing onerous regulations on them.

Furthermore, self-employed prostitutes can also always say no to any prospective client they strongly dislike. Prostitutes working in a brothel will be fired for that eventually, and find themselves blacklisted, never mind what kind of legislation you draft.

Frankly, my opinion is that prostitution is an evil. More often than not it screws up people's lives and you can't legislate that away. You cannot also "ban" the high risk of STDs either: even inf they don't get the nastier but more easily prevented HIV or HepC, they will get successive infections from syphilis, gonorrhea, etc in any society where these diseases are not eradicated. Which, in our globalized world where tourists and immigrants make up a high proportion of their costumers, just cannot be assured.
As for customers, well... they get what they kind of deserve, often prostitutes that do carry STD and hide it so as to not harm income or have to leave the profession altogether. That harm you could mitigate, with government-run brothels and compulsory controls on prostitutes. Not for the sake of the prostitutes (though you could give them a state subsidy for their pains when they were forced to retire - it'd have to be subsidized by the state, there's not enough profit in the job to pay for that, sex is cheap) but for the sake of the customers and "public health". That, as I've said previously, is going back to the medieval attitude towards prostitution: a lesser evil to be regulated. Funny that modern liberals would align so closely with medieval theologists - make of that what you will. The move to regulate prostitution and force prostitutes into monitored brothels may be in the public interest, but it is most definitely not in the interest of the prostitutes themselves. In corrupt countries they'd be exploited there, the regulations rendered ineffective. And in orderly countries they can already call on the services of the state (police, hospitals, etc) as self-employed persons and need not the dubious protection of a brothel.

I do not favor using the state to repress people who are too clueless to recognize that it usually becomes a terribly losing game for them, because I know they'd do it anyway even if it were forbidden. But I'm also not willing to support having people legally entice others to do it, and profiting from doing that. And yes, that means I'd support banning any and all further production of commercial porn also. As we all know, we don't need "paid professionals" to produce porn, people do it and post in on the net for free now. Much less am I willing to support having the state itself assuming the role of pimp to "protect" the very people that the states' social security, anti-fraud agencies, housing programmes, etc has failed to help. Because this, at least in my country and I believe in others also, are the main (though not the only, granted) causes of people becoming prostitutes.
 
Innonimatu has an uncanny ability to find left-wing rationale for right-wing policies. Never sure whether to be puzzled or impressed or what.
 
Innonimatu has an uncanny ability to find left-wing rationale for right-wing policies. Never sure whether to be puzzled or impressed or what.
seems more paternalistic to me
 
One can imagine a set of regulatory schema that would legalize prostitution in a manner that would preserve the safety, if not the dignity, of the various stakeholders involved. However it is exceedingly difficult to imagine that many large nations have the will to engage in that regulation.

Because the harms of an unregulated prostitution industry can be severe and because many governments are unwilling or unable to regulate the practice, advocating for legalization or the removal of the stigma associated with the practice seems unwise.

I'm very specifically calling legalisation *inadequate* and advocating decriminalisation.

You can imagine regulation as a spectrum running from laiseez faire to highly effective (and necessarily invasive) regulation. Just legalizing it without regulation would result in a significant increase in human misery as people get taken advantage of by pimps, callous johns, and untrustworthy prostitutes. There does not seem to be a point along that spectrum that encompasses both safe regulation and would be presently acceptable politically.

This has not been the experience of decriminalisation in New Zealand or New South Wales (ie what you appear to mean by "legalisation without regulation. Which, again, is why Amnesty International and the WHO advocate decriminalisation and not just selective legalisation.

Here's the thing: just because there's no specific extra laws or regulatory hoop-jumping targeting sex work exclusively doesn't mean regular workers rights, occupational health and safety and criminal laws against violence, imprisonment and exploitation stop existing.
 
This is true not only of Sweden. Sex has become increasingly "easier to get", and that has reflected both on the number and on the earnings of prostitutes.



I strongly dispute that. How exactly do you thing it goes for an inexperienced sex worker? You would wish there were some "nice" guys or gals saying "Here now, this is a normal way to make money, come and prostitute yourself. It's really nice to be our collaborator! And if you're inexperienced don't work, we'll break you in to all kinds of sex for pay."? It is abhorrent. It is also sad when they do it on their own, for self-employed prostitutes do have to start some way. Usually the first time is not a rational decision but an act of despair due to some pressing need. Not meant to be the beginning of a "career" but... it was easy money and that person starts doing it more and more often, until it becomes a career.
My point is that (most of) these beginners won't go to a brothel anyway, because they don't intend to employ themselves as prostitutes initially. The "employment" phase comes later, and at that point they believe they know very well how to handle things on their own. A brothel will only be eating into their income and forcing onerous regulations on them.

Furthermore, self-employed prostitutes can also always say no to any prospective client they strongly dislike. Prostitutes working in a brothel will be fired for that eventually, and find themselves blacklisted, never mind what kind of legislation you draft.

Frankly, my opinion is that prostitution is an evil. More often than not it screws up people's lives and you can't legislate that away. You cannot also "ban" the high risk of STDs either: even inf they don't get the nastier but more easily prevented HIV or HepC, they will get successive infections from syphilis, gonorrhea, etc in any society where these diseases are not eradicated. Which, in our globalized world where tourists and immigrants make up a high proportion of their costumers, just cannot be assured.
As for customers, well... they get what they kind of deserve, often prostitutes that do carry STD and hide it so as to not harm income or have to leave the profession altogether. That harm you could mitigate, with government-run brothels and compulsory controls on prostitutes. Not for the sake of the prostitutes (though you could give them a state subsidy for their pains when they were forced to retire - it'd have to be subsidized by the state, there's not enough profit in the job to pay for that, sex is cheap) but for the sake of the customers and "public health". That, as I've said previously, is going back to the medieval attitude towards prostitution: a lesser evil to be regulated. Funny that modern liberals would align so closely with medieval theologists - make of that what you will. The move to regulate prostitution and force prostitutes into monitored brothels may be in the public interest, but it is most definitely not in the interest of the prostitutes themselves. In corrupt countries they'd be exploited there, the regulations rendered ineffective. And in orderly countries they can already call on the services of the state (police, hospitals, etc) as self-employed persons and need not the dubious protection of a brothel.

I do not favor using the state to repress people who are too clueless to recognize that it usually becomes a terribly losing game for them, because I know they'd do it anyway even if it were forbidden. But I'm also not willing to support having people legally entice others to do it, and profiting from doing that. And yes, that means I'd support banning any and all further production of commercial porn also. As we all know, we don't need "paid professionals" to produce porn, people do it and post in on the net for free now. Much less am I willing to support having the state itself assuming the role of pimp to "protect" the very people that the states' social security, anti-fraud agencies, housing programmes, etc has failed to help. Because this, at least in my country and I believe in others also, are the main (though not the only, granted) causes of people becoming prostitutes.

I'm just telling you what actual sex worker organisations tend to say about brothel bans - that the result of brothel bans is illicit brothels and less safety and more marginalisation.

(For example this Scarlet Alliance submission to the Tasmamian government about its brothel ban notes exactly what I said regarding new entrants. It also discusses the role of brothels in facilitating part time workers because sole-trading is more expensive to set up. Plus perhaps most importantly it explains that clients who are abusive know brothels are illegal so *they target those workers*)

The same pernicious impact tends to apply to attempts to suppress any particular part of the sex work industry - for example some jurisdictions allow *only* brothels and try to suppress street workers and private in-calls.

There's really no need to yell or launch into extensive walls of text.

And as for that rather ugly bit about "everyone has STIs and clients deserve it", in New South Wales under full decriminalisation since 1995, sex workers have *lower* rates of HIV/STI infection than the general population. So yeah.
 
I'm very specifically calling legalisation *inadequate* and advocating decriminalisation.



This has not been the experience of decriminalisation in New Zealand or New South Wales (ie what you appear to mean by "legalisation without regulation. Which, again, is why Amnesty International and the WHO advocate decriminalisation and not just selective legalisation.

Here's the thing: just because there's no specific extra laws or regulatory hoop-jumping targeting sex work exclusively doesn't mean regular workers rights, occupational health and safety and criminal laws against violence, imprisonment and exploitation stop existing.


What does decriminalization mean here? When you say that I think of behavior that remains illegal but is not subject to criminal sanction and is instead regulated by civil penalties.
 
What does decriminalization mean here? When you say that I think of behavior that remains illegal but is not subject to criminal sanction and is instead regulated by civil penalties.
It means the removal of laws and policies criminalising or penalising Amy form of consensual adult sex work. That means laws and regulations related to selling and buying or organising sex, laws regarding solicitation, renting premises, brothel keeping and living off the proceeds. It also means no imposition of extra laws and regulations that apply only to sex workers - popular examples would be mandatory registration, forced health checks, restrictive licensing and the like.

Legalisation frameworks simply create a permissive legal space for some sex work within a backdrop of other aspects being criminalised. For example, there may be licensed brothels while street solicitation and private in-calls remain prohibited. Or there may be laws against pimping or "living off the proceeds" which make it difficult for sex workers to rent accommodation or to support their families. Or there may be licensing that in practice is onerous and leads to most people remaining illicit.

The New Zealand model explained by the NZ Prostitutes Collective is a good explainer of the decriminalisation approach taken there and in NZ and advocated globally by Amnesty and the WHO.
 
And as for that rather ugly bit about "everyone has STIs and clients deserve it", in New South Wales under full decriminalisation since 1995, sex workers have *lower* rates of HIV/STI infection than the general population. So yeah.

Allow me to be in doubt about that, the world is ugly especially in some activities and people lie when their interests are at stake. But I am curious as to how such and outcome could be produced, if true - it would be a good thing. How are those numbers obtained?

@Traitorfish: sometimes right-wingers defend causes that (usually for reasons other than those they believe, it seems to me) can be good for people in general. Or perhaps I'm just an argumentative bastard who likes to play devil's advocate with some cherished left-wing causes. I guess I can easily come across as such!

In this case I'm irritated that the focus of this cause that I've seen taken up by some people here where I live does not seem to be in the actual prostitutes, but in making their marketable service safer - better. What I have noticed in following these arguments in the past is that the liberal right is all for legalized and regulated prostitution (though they won't use that "dirty" word, regulation). It's the religious, conservative right that is against. The left... sometimes it plays right into the liberal right's field.

Anyway, I agree with decriminalization, it seems to work better that prohibition. It's not even about "damage control" (I'm divided on that one), it's the issue of personal freedom and all. What I just can't see is what organizing prostitution as a big business (or a state monopoly, or some odd mix of the two) improves on its problems. There's only the argument for public health and safety, right? I doubt its efficacy, though Arwon may convince me otherwise. But it is an argument that is worth exploring, I understand how it may be decisive for many people.

I dislike that particular argument in principle: public health and safety should be provided for as public services, not by some employer, and mandatory controls are intrusive on that very personal freedom that I accept as an argument for not forbidding prostitution. I'd have to compromise on a deontological position for an utilitarian argument. May do it, everybody does it in most issues, but it will have to be one hell of difference to make me support legalized brothels. They already exist over here, always did: in some clubs where employees do more than serving drinks or doing massages or in less appealing venues. And so does abuse in some of these, though the trend is for that to disappear. Such businesses now are limited in their ability to actively recruit employees and hold no state-enforced monopoly on the business. The first is a matter of principle that is (perhaps irrationally) important to me. The second may be important to the prostitutes themselves, though I can't claim to speak for any - just pointing it out.
 
Why wouldn't sex workers be extra knowledgeable and careful about sexual health? It is literally their livelihoods, that is where self interest lies unles state-oppressive barriers are putting obstacles in the way.

The short version is peer education and everyone using condoms:

Academic paper on the subject

Sex workers in Australia are world-renowned for having

consistently low rates of sexually transmissible infections

(STIs) and HIV. This phenomena—a result of Australia’s

partnership approach to HIV, sex worker peer education

and safer sex practices—is regularly documented in

studies on the sex industry in Australia. Research dem-

onstrates that sex workers have low rates of HIV [1,2]

(less than 1%), low rates of STIs [2,3], and high rates of

pro- phylactic use [4]. Sex workers maintain these stan-

dards across various states in Australia.

(...)

In other states in Australia, epidemiology and research

consistently show that sex workers have lower rates of

STIs than the non-sex working population. The 2001-2009

annual national surveillance report demonstrates that pre-

valence of HIV among sex workers has remained con-

sistently low—less than 1% [9]. In the Australian Capital

Territory (ACT), a Canberra Sexual Health Centre study

demonstrates that positive diagnosis of Chlamydia among

sex workers between 2002 and 2005 was 1.6% and

positive diagnosis of syphilis was 0.0% [10]. Such low

rates of STIs among sex workers are unique, particularly

when one reviews these statistics in the context of wider

studies on STIs rates among the general community. For

example, 2008 research from the ACT illustrates that the

prevalence of Chlamydia among tested women in general

practices was 4.3%. Among women 20 - 25 years this

rate rose to 6.5% [11]. In that same state in 2004 the

incidence of positive tests for Chlamydia was 5.1%

[12].
 
I do. Of course I also care about the dignity of lawyers so maybe my level of concern for personal service professions differs from yours.

I just don't view the profession of prostitution to be any more or less noble or dignifying than the profession or law, or programming, or whatever else.

Let's make it safe and healthy for people to engage in this profession of they so choose to, and let's make sure nobody is pulled into the profession against their will. People will find their own dignity in things in their own ways.
 
Unfortunately I feel I should take academic studies on STD and HIV in particular, with a grain of salt. But I won't argue the results of the one you post, only some of the conclusions people may draw from it.

Condoms do not protect from all STD, they protect from a small subset. The nastier one, HIV, sure, and that is important. And they do give some degree of protection on syphilis, HPV, etc, but are not at all "safe" regarding those, especially because they tend not to be used in oral sex.

Their self interest lies in obtaining income and avoiding compromising their own health. If they are ethical (most seem to be but they cannot always afford to be ethical - important!) they will believe that they should also protect their costumers. Because it is the right thing to do and because it is good for business - repeat costumers and good.
The problem is when they cannot afford to be ethical because they need the money. I don't know how it is there, but here very few wealthy people go into prostitution just for the sake of it (there are some, I've heard, though I never verified that information), it's for the money and usually only when that need for money is desperate. Some make a reasonable amount of money (escorts catering to wealthier clients), most make just enough to meet expenses because they don't what to take in more costumers that they absolutely need. The most disciplined save and can make pauses when they have health problems, the others do not. Regulars must not be turned off. But tourists, or locals when the prostitute is not doing her/his trade in a fixed city, do not. Draw your conclusions from this scenario.

Let's make it safe and healthy for people to engage in this profession of they so choose to, and let's make sure nobody is pulled into the profession against their will. People will find their own dignity in things in their own ways.

What, tell me, do you believe leads someone to turn to prostitution "on their own free will"?
 
To what extent do people become building cleaners or supermarket shelf stackers or restaurant dishwashers or chicken gutters of their own free will? What is free will when it comes to selling one's labour in a capitalist system? Is there inherent dignity in difficult, injury prone low-paid labour such as this? Those are also all occupations prone to exploitation, shoddy labour conditions, abuse, denial of rights and the like, too.
 
Unfortunately I feel I should take academic studies on STD and HIV in particular, with a grain of salt. But I won't argue the results of the one you post, only some of the conclusions people may draw from it.

Condoms do not protect from all STD, they protect from a small subset. The nastier one, HIV, sure, and that is important. And they do give some degree of protection on syphilis, HPV, etc, but are not at all "safe" regarding those, especially because they tend not to be used in oral sex.

It's really not just a couple of academic studies, it's the clinics and advocacy groups and the workers. For example - the Australian Sexual Health Alliance says that "Currently, there is no evidence that sex workers in Australia have higher rates of STIs than the general population. Sustaining low STI rates remains a priority".

Likewise for government health department reviews, which was actually the source for a lot of the data cited above. They also found that over the last two decades sexual health in migrant sex workers in Sydney was increased to the high level of local sex workers which is a pretty strong endorsement of peer support and government funded outreach programs. They also found that a recent increase in Chlamydia in the general population has not been replicated among sex workers. A Melbourne study noted sex with non-paying/personal partners was actually the bigger risk of STI infection for those workers. Generally street workers had worse health than other workers and the big exception regarding sexual health is male sex workers apparently have higher rates of STIs.

The "dirty whore" is a persistent stereotype but it really does fly in the face of actual experience here.
 
What, tell me, do you believe leads someone to turn to prostitution "on their own free will"?
I'd say poverty, desire to make easy money, inability to get another satisfying job.
If the alternative is to work like an ox in two jobs, certain amount of people will want to trade some dignity and respect in society, for a decent amount of money and free time.
 
I'd say poverty, desire to make easy money, inability to get another satisfying job.
If the alternative is to work like an ox in two jobs, certain amount of people will certainly trade some dignity and respect in society, for a decent amount of money and free time.

Yes, I agree that is the motive for people to make of it a "job", rather than an occasional expedient. But I don't think this rationalization comes before their first experience at it.
 
Yes, I agree that is the motive for people to make of it a "job", rather than an occasional expedient. But I don't think this rationalization comes before their first experience at it.
I would say it's the opposite - these motives are what makes people try it out, and only after first experience most of them probably realize that this is much less a pleasant job and easy money as they expected at first.
 
Prostitution is a necessity and one of the pillars of the modern society which keeps it calm and everything. But it must be illegal to prevent deterioration and really bad things to take its place. People always test bounderies and cross them, so the bounderies should be tighter leaving some safe or needed things outside.
 
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