Protective Trait-- Underrated?

[CivCorpse]

Best thing for dealing with MG's is Artillery. You can get to artillery well before Infantry. CR2 artillery beat the crap out of MG's. If they are on a hill then CR3 arty will beat the crap out of them. Even with D4 the MG is going to take some damage and all the other non-MG units get a nice blast of collateral. THAT is when you assault with first strike immune cavalry.
If you are defending a city then CG3 Grenadiers promoted to MG's are the way to go. They are immune to collateral and fairly cheap to upgrade. Since this thread is about Protective then they will be CG3D1 plus the native first strike for MG's. And that is at 5xp. Pretty easy to get with a barracks + an xp civic. The only thing they do not butcher outright is CR3 arty and even then they have better than even odds. 22.5 plus 1.5 first strikes vs 18 after the CR3 and CG3 cancel each other out.
Against cavalry it is evn better. An MG has to be reduced to half it's HP before a C2flanking2 cavalry has 50-50 odds. That is a 17xp unit. Flanking2C1Charge is a little better but that is still a 17xp unit.
CR3 Infantry? Mincemeat.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Machine guns are not gunpowder units and so do not benefit from the PRO free promotions.

 

[CivCorpse]

Machine guns are not gunpowder units and so do not benefit from the PRO free promotions.

If you are defending a city then CG3 Grenadiers promoted to MG's are the way to go.

Grenadiers ARE gunpowder units and DO benefit from the Pro free promotions.

 

[pi-r8]

noto2. By itself Drill IV is already a very powerful promotion. If you were thinking about boosting the drill line then think about Drill 1 in particular, or 2 and 3.

I don't really see what's so great about Drill IV. I just did a world builder test, and found that a rifleman with combat 1 will win 55% of the time against a rifle with drill IV. (no other drill promos, only drill IV). That means that, even if you're at drill 3, you'd STILL be better off taking combat 1 than Drill IV.

I realize that Drill IV offers the greatest chance of winning a battle unscathed, but in my experience that rarely happens, unless it's a ridiculous mismatch like navy seals vs. longbows. Is it really that hard to just bring a medic 3 GG, and heal? You'll want that anyway even with Drill IV.

The only time I can see drill being really good is if I had to defend against a swarm of lower tech units with just a few high tech units. Unfortunately, the most common time that happens is when shaka swarms me with knights, which are immune to first strike

 

[PieceOfMind]

pi-r8, the best way to use drill IV is very different to other promotions. I see all the time people make the comparison between two equal strength units and look at combat 1 and one of the drill promotions. This is like testing a CR promotion outside of attacking cities because you are trying to use a particular promotion where it does not work very well.

Basically I'm trying to say Drill are not one-size-fits-all promotions and will not be as equally effective in all situations as the most general of all promotions - combat promotions.

One of my rules of thumb in using drill units to attack is to always do it at a combatRatio advantage, preferably at least 1.2 or so. Around 1.3 is ideal because you can have odds as high as 96% roughly and still earn 3XP. If you attack at ratio 1 (like in your rifle example), a combat promotion will be extremely effective because it tips the combat over one of the jump points, and so is an unfair way to compare two promotions. I mean, realistically how often do you encounter a battle between rifles on flat ground with no other promotions?

I don't disagree with your findings pi-r8 but IMO you have not seen the real cases where Drill IV is strong.

And my opinion is that a M3 unit is hardly ever needed. In those games where I can just walk all over my enemies then medic is merely going to make it quicker. I have never found super medics to give me an edge in combat. Having most of my army leave the military pump with +2xp, possibly another promotion, is far more useful in most of the games I play (usually huge maps at Epic speed).

@CivCorpse, My apologies I misread your post. I think the native first strike bit through me off. I have a habit of forgetting the way units gain inconsistent promotions through upgrades.

 

[Wodan]

And besides, the way the best defender is selected takes immunity to first strikes into account so unless the D4 defenders are the only ones left you will not be up against D4 units with those guys anyway.

Those hypothetical "other guys" are vulnerable to your siege/collateral.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Those hypothetical "other guys" are vulnerable to your siege/collateral.

Yes and those siege/collateral are vulnerable to the Drill IV defenders...

We could keep going round in circles with the rock-paper-scissors combat mechanics. All I wanted to say originally was that complete immunity to collateral for Drill IV units would be a bit too powerful. I'm not denying normal D4 units can be countered, but in a normal combat situation where other defenders are present, the extra edge given to D4 by giving them complete immunity to collateral is unnecessary.

 

[futurehermit]

Hmmm...regarding the wall chop thing, I hate for something to be strong because of what amounts to a gimmick that it enables. Especially a non-transparent gimmick, one that you have to be a real gamer to use. And one that takes a lot of fretting over micromanaging and stuff, and lacks flavor (the decision to wall chop to penny-pinch some gold in an ultra-competitive way is different from the decision to wall chop to protect your city--in other words, play your civ in a fun, flavorable, meaning-filled way.

Just want to say that I agree 100% with this.

 

[noto2]

drill is useful when attacking cities with seige. Your seige units get the defenders down to 50% hp or less, and then your city attacking units can fight with great odds, without CR or C promotions, so give them drill. They'll win the battles without taking damage

 

[PieceOfMind]

drill is useful when attacking cities with seige. Your seige units get the defenders down to 50% hp or less, and then your city attacking units can fight with great odds, without CR or C promotions, so give them drill. They'll win the battles without taking damage

Even a bit higher than 50% can be ok. The key is getting the ratio advantage. The value I recommend is about 1.3, where your units will earn 3XP from each battle. If earning 2XP instead, you want the ratio to be just below 2.0 if possible.

The ratio I'm referring to for those who are unsure is the ratio of modified strengths.
For example, a longbow attacking an axeman would be R = 6.0/5.0 = 1.2

If the axe had only 80HP it would be R=6.0/(5.0*.8) = 1.5