Protective...

obsolete

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I know everyone hates Protective. They don't like the traits, and when the AI has it, they still don't like it cause it makes their job of taking AI cities even worse.

A thought did occur to me today. Now I don't know if their free CG & Drill is really free. If I have a barracks and theocracy, am I still able to give up to the CRIII promotion, or is the experience needed higher because of the begining 2 promotions?

I suppose to be worth while, the original promotions really better be free (no experience point offset) or it really is a horrible deal.

But... as for the other side.... One thing I really like to do now is build a lot of anti-armour infantry. Now yes, they really are a terrible unit, but I do this for an exploit that comes later.

You see, their bonus is not a built in intrinsic factor, instead it is a generic Promotion, the Ambush. Normally you can't get this without two strength promos first. So....

I like to put city garrison I & II on these guys, and let them sit & fortify, keeping my cities happy. This is the only way to get CR & Ambush together without having a rediculous amount of XPs.

Now, when you get the tech for Mechanised infantry, you can upgrade these guys into superior city defenders. But there's another bonus here. When you upgrade, you get ANOTHER free promotion. That's a March which gets added on even with the upgrade.

So now, your level 2 promoted unit comes with:

Ambush
CR I
CR II
March

But lets assume you were protective... so for just the same two promotions, wouldn't that give you...

1. Ambush
2. CR I
3. CR II
4. CR III
5. Drill
6. March

And THAT is with just a lousy cheap 2 promotions spent. I just never really tested the Protective leaders yet, but does this work in theory?
 
A thought did occur to me today. Now I don't know if their free CG & Drill is really free. If I have a barracks and theocracy, am I still able to give up to the CRIII promotion, or is the experience needed higher because of the begining 2 promotions?

Yes they are free. No xp used on those promotions. So you are able to give those promotions normally.
 
CR = CityGarrison right? Got a bit confused here :confused:

Still doesn't make it a "good" trait in my opinion anyway ;)
But you can make new demonstration game where you show why protective is good and prove me wrong! :D
 
Whoops, what a typo. I apologize as I'm tired and actually doing work here at the same time.

I may run some tests on this during the holidays.
 
Obsolete said:
But lets assume you were protective... so for just the same two promotions, wouldn't that give you...

1. Ambush
2. CR I
3. CR II
4. CR III
5. Drill
6. March

And THAT is with just a lousy cheap 2 promotions spent. I just never really tested the Protective leaders yet, but does this work in theory?

Works in practice as well. The problem however is that this still isn't that brilliant a unit. City Garrison is a promotion I very rarely use, for the simple reason that something has to go seriously wrong for an AI to be directly attacking one of my cities. I much prefer a more active approach to defense, picking units off the enemy SoD as it approaches.

Now I grant you that a few city garrison units can be handy to drag along with an attack force to protect the newly captured city, but I'm really not going to build that many of them.

It's true I hate seeing Protective neighbours early on, since they're a pain to axe rush. They still end up losing - I can pillage them till they have no hope of winning just as easily - it's just harder to finish off units turtled up in cities. It comes to the point that always made about Protective - it's not a trait for someone who's trying to win, only for someone who's trying not to lose.

That's also the other problem with the multi promoted unit described above - it appears so late in the game as to be irrelevant.
 
I like Protective more for the free Drill 1 promo. The fact that it also gets CG means my attack stack can perform double duty and I don't have to waste SOD slots with defensive units. They all get to participate. How about:
Drill 1
Drill 2
Drill 3
CG 1
March
Ambush
Mech Inf? I like 'em. It also makes my Muskets to Modern era deadly and this is where I do the most of my warring. So it fits with my play style more. I find it much more useful than Agressive, just under Charismatic for best war traits. It's not my favorite trait but I like it just the same.
 
Hmm, so to get that list, are you starting off with longbowmen to get all the Drills. Then upgrading to anti-tank-inf for the ambush, and then upgrading again to mech-inf for march?
 
Ooooh, nice upgrade progression Obsolete.

Very nice. I wouldn't have thought of that one. Takes a lot of gold to fund it though doesn't it?

Also, shouldn't it start as Archer > Longbow for maximal exchange of gold for free upgrades?

-abs
 
The only time I dont mind protective is when playing the Qin Shi Haung, industrius/ protective with Cho-Ku-Nu is a pretty powerfull combo. Industrius helps with a metal casting sling shot & the Cho-Ku-Nu is a VERY powerfull UU. Even when attacking with low odds I find that the Cho-Ku-Nu still wins more often than not. With the collateral damage & all the drill promos most of your attackers win without a scratch ( letting you conquer your enemy even faster cause less healing is needed ). You can then just garrison 2 of your CG1 Drill 3 crossbows in the cities you capture & not worry about counter attack.
 
I never build archers. Longbows are the masters of their time though so that's different.

But some more thoughts, for 2 upgrades, you are getting a LEVEL SEVEN unit. That's pretty hard to get normally. But to further add to this...

Even if you haven't fought a SINGLE BATTLE, just by simply upgrading, you unlock the HE but also the West-Point which requires at least a level 6 unit to be present, correct?

There is no other way I can think of to get this without fighting a war first.

But even furthermore.... Look at Togu. Aggressive/Protective.
So now, that's another Strength promotion added.

Using him, (and him only) we now can get for just 2 cheap promotions...

1. Combat 1
2. Ambush
3. March
4. Drill 1
5. CG 1
6. Drill 2/ CG 2
7. Drill 3/ CG 3

A level 8 unit! Without even fighting yet, and our war buildings are unlocked with it. So throw in Vassalage as well now with the WP, could that push it to level 9? I guess you'd need the Pentagon too. It's a close one...
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the nominal levels remain low since the promotions are free?

While that won't unlock anything, the units have the potential to stack up promotions in a rather disgusting fashion...
 
But even furthermore.... Look at Togu. Aggressive/Protective.
So now, that's another Strength promotion added.

You'd have to build a gunpowder unit (as opposed to a melee or archery unit) in order to get both the aggressive and protective promotions.
 
The promotions are free and they don't raise the level of a unit. Anyway, I find Protective lacking. Free Drill is usually the only thing worth it from the trait, because I almost never build walls, even less castles, and going on the offensive is better than turtling since collateral favors the attacker. Unless you are caught with your pants down and have to Draft. I rather have aggressive, since the Combat 1 unlocks the important counter promotions, and Barracks are essential buildings.
 
Put me down as someone who doesn't hate protective.

With 2 promotions you can have CG3Drill1 longbows or rifles - just one of them is like a mini army holding a city. Just the thing to deter counterattacks.

With 2 promotions you can have CG1Drill2Pinch Rifles - thats a pretty good city attacker.

With 1 promotion (draftee) you can have CG1Drill1Pinch Rifles or CG1Drill2 rifles - both very versatile and useful units.

From your HE city with three promotions you can be producing Drill 4 rifles - pretty good in my opinion.

Airlift CG3Drill2 infantry in to hold captured cities. Attack from sea with Drill2 Pinch Marines.

Its not the best. It may even be the worst. But it is far from a useless trait.
 
The promotions are free and they don't raise the level of a unit. Anyway, I find Protective lacking. Free Drill is usually the only thing worth it from the trait, because I almost never build walls, even less castles, and going on the offensive is better than turtling since collateral favors the attacker. Unless you are caught with your pants down and have to Draft. I rather have aggressive, since the Combat 1 unlocks the important counter promotions, and Barracks are essential buildings.

Walls and Castles are definitely worth building with Protective. Your army is perceived to be larger for a very cheap investment. That deters attack and also gives you quicker capitulations.

Drill1 unlocks almost all the same promotions as combat 1. The major one missing is medic. But shock, formation and cover are all available off the drill line.
 
It seems a lot of people don't understand how to use defensive on the offense.

I love to put high calibre CG units into a fort/city on the border outpost so I can swap 10 of my guys for 100+ of theirs when I get backstabbed. And when the dust settles, I move in to take a few cities.
 
Obsolete said:
But some more thoughts, for 2 upgrades, you are getting a LEVEL SEVEN unit. That's pretty hard to get normally. But to further add to this...

Even if you haven't fought a SINGLE BATTLE, just by simply upgrading, you unlock the HE but also the West-Point which requires at least a level 6 unit to be present, correct?

Unit level and number of promotions aren't the same thing. Those you get from traits, freebies, random events and similar don't increase unit level. That's tied purely to experience, which isn't affected by protective. Charismatic is the only trait that allows you to obtain West Point and Heroic Epic earlier.

While it may have 7 promotions, most of them are not from protective - only City Garrison 1 and Drill 1 are due to the protective trait.
 
City Garrison is horrid. Units left in cities get slaughtered by artillery/ City Raider tanks in the modern era. You never, ever want to leave your army in a city to be butchered, even if they are level twenty Warlord lead uber units.

Cheers,

Dai
 
City Garrison is horrid. Units left in cities get slaughtered by artillery/ City Raider tanks in the modern era. You never, ever want to leave your army in a city to be butchered, even if they are level twenty Warlord lead uber units.

Cheers,

Dai

A three promotion marine - not an uber unit by any means - with CG3 and drill 2 will slaughter a LOT of artillery in a city.

My favourite use of protective in modern war is to pick a city close to my border - ideally within 1 turns move. Capture the city with tanks supported by bombers. Do not move my tanks into the city, but rather hold them back. Then airlift / move in 2-3 CG/Drill marines. These units are there to absorb the counterattack. They will kill/wound a lot of units before they fall - collateral damage doesn't affect the main defender and the other defenders are partially protected by the drill promotion.

Eventually they will die - but they weren't warlords and probably took down many time their value in hammers. The AI will have a lot of wounded units and your main army is still intact - and now you are the attacker again and get to dish out the collateral damage en-mass.

Rince and repeat until they have no counterattack troops and are hiding in their cities.
 
I don't understand the bit about upgrading. Mech Inf. is a gunpowder unit so it gets all agressive and all protective bonuses when built.
 
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