JonathanValjean
Porschephile
I didn't say it was "ludicrous." I said it was more "plausible" to believe in a first cause that, in turn, created all secondary things.
Prove that God doesn't exist
- Thread starter Mark Young
- Start date
I didn't say it was "ludicrous." I said it was more "plausible" to believe in a first cause that, in turn, created all secondary things.
jack merchant
Internationalist
My apologies - that may have sounded overly flippant. But it's not my actual opinion. Rather, it was the inference I drew from another poster's reasoning.
To see us as God's children makes sense, yes. However, children in this world are (usually) the natural and inevitable consequence of the act of love between a man and a woman. God, however, [is supposed to have] created us by conscious choice all by himself. And unlike humans, He did have influence over what His offspring would be like.
Well, that would be nice if it were true. But bad things happening to people doesn't always strengthen their character - they may instead become bitter, alcoholic, traumatized, suicidal, or in the case of abused children, abusers of children themselves. How are we to interpret such character-buidling gone astray ?
I'll ask
And you probably saw it coming, too: how did the Holocaust end up for good ? I agree.
Accept, no. Respect, yes
. And thank you too for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response.
Plexus
Architeuthidae puericomedentis
But the universe has not existed forever, all things point to a singularity.
trader/warrior
Deity
god came and told me that he does not exist 
its not possible to prove that he does or does not exist.
its not possible to prove that he does or does not exist.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Sir Eric, we already discussed this in a 'similar' thread :
Not everyone has a free will
This is the very reason I saw the light and started realising there is no god at all!
Now some proof of the non-existance of God.
Let me start with the simple statement that there is no way to proof the non-existance of anything. If I say there is yellow planet a billion lightyears from here, full with beautiful women with only one goal: pleasing the members of CFC; I hope we will all understand there is no such planet. Sorry, it isn't there! Is there a way to prove its non-existancy? No there is not. So, I cannot prove the there is no god at all. Maybe there is a god somewhere, maybe he created earth a billion years ago and moved on. Maybe there is a planet in our galaxy with a higher lifeform than humans (think of the startrek Q species).
But I can prove the non-existance of the Christian God!
The bible is so full of contradictions with known facts and with itself, that it can't be the word of the almighty.
I do realize the bible is full of metaphores, but some things really make no sense. Any arguement can be discussed and I do know this won't change the views of christians but in general this is my proof:
-On page 1 the bible goes wrong with the 7 day creation. We all know this is absolute nonsense. Is it symbolic? It could be..., but it also tells us that there was day and night, before light was created....... yeah right! Apart from that, scientist have proof of the existance of a human life form, from millions of years ago.
-The biblical God changes his mind. The gospels tell a completely different story than the old testament. The God in the old testament is a cruel God. The book of Job... Try to see it from the point of view from the mothers of the shephards that die in chapter one. When reading such a story, I have a hard time thinking God is full of love!
-Our world looks exactly like a world without divine influence.
-If God would exist, and is good, and full of love... How would you see that from the view of a 16 year old african women, who has just lost her baby by a fine combination of aids and hunger? Please realize that there are more people on this planet living in misery, than there are people connected to the internet!
I'd also like to say that there is no point in proving the non-existance of God. I will only believe in what I see! So the best proof of God's non-existance is the lack of any evidence he does exist!
Yago
came undone
If cows could paint. They would paint pictures of a cow, say it's god and pretend cows were created after his image. God usually looks like the locals praying to him. Either god is a shapeshifter or a fantasy of local people, looking for an imaginary daddy to hold their hands. Looking for an imaginary daddy to protect one, seems to be a very rational move to me, when no other options are aviable.
Mark Young
Formerly Sir Eric
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 1,799
Thanks for your reply
I will check out that thread when I get soemtime soon.
Yes you could prove it's non-existence by going to the place(if it were possible) that you said this planet was suppose to be and seeing if it is there or not. By seeing it you prove it is there and by not seeing it you prove that it is not there.
Or you could just as easily say that you couldn't prove that it WAS there either. Which leaves us at an impasse.
This is the same conclusion that I drew in Curtsibling post about trying to prove that he does exist.
I try not to think of Q, he wasn't my fav trek character.
So are you saying that there is a God but you cant prove He exists but you can prove that the Christian one doesn't?
I'm not sure if you fully understand that in the book of Job it was lucifer that inflicted and killed all the people and not God.
I have read both the old and the new testament and I dont see a difference in the way that God acts.
(Could you please elaborate on some specific examples as I dont think I fully understand you point here).
Bad things happen to everyone regardless of who they are or where they are. You can do all the right things and still get bad things happening to you. The fact that this happens is not proof that God doesn't exist.
What sort of evidence would you need to be satisfied that God exists? Evidence and proof I would believe to be 2 tottaly different things. I already stated before that I cant prove that he exists but that doesn't mean I cant give it a go and see what we come up with.
I will check out that thread when I get soemtime soon.
Yes you could prove it's non-existence by going to the place(if it were possible) that you said this planet was suppose to be and seeing if it is there or not. By seeing it you prove it is there and by not seeing it you prove that it is not there.
Or you could just as easily say that you couldn't prove that it WAS there either. Which leaves us at an impasse.
This is the same conclusion that I drew in Curtsibling post about trying to prove that he does exist.
I try not to think of Q, he wasn't my fav trek character.
So are you saying that there is a God but you cant prove He exists but you can prove that the Christian one doesn't?
I'm not sure if you fully understand that in the book of Job it was lucifer that inflicted and killed all the people and not God.
I have read both the old and the new testament and I dont see a difference in the way that God acts.
(Could you please elaborate on some specific examples as I dont think I fully understand you point here).
Bad things happen to everyone regardless of who they are or where they are. You can do all the right things and still get bad things happening to you. The fact that this happens is not proof that God doesn't exist.
What sort of evidence would you need to be satisfied that God exists? Evidence and proof I would believe to be 2 tottaly different things. I already stated before that I cant prove that he exists but that doesn't mean I cant give it a go and see what we come up with.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Well, we both see there is no point in proving one thing or another..
however:
Lucifer asked God to take away anything from Job, to see if Job would still keep faith in God. And then Gos approved! He said to Lucifer: go ahead and take away his possesions and his kids and his personel!
Once again: Try to see this from the view of the shepards's wifes!
In the old testament, in the books of Exodus, Numeri, Leviticus and Deuteronomium, God provides man with all kinds of prescriptions. Jesus mows down many of these prescription in the gospels.
however:
Lucifer asked God to take away anything from Job, to see if Job would still keep faith in God. And then Gos approved! He said to Lucifer: go ahead and take away his possesions and his kids and his personel!
Once again: Try to see this from the view of the shepards's wifes!
In the old testament, in the books of Exodus, Numeri, Leviticus and Deuteronomium, God provides man with all kinds of prescriptions. Jesus mows down many of these prescription in the gospels.
Mark Young
Formerly Sir Eric
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2003
- Messages
- 1,799
Ok I see your point now. I haven't looked at it from that way before. I dont really have anything to say to that.I have never really thought about his sons that died.
The way that I have always viewed the book of Job was as an example of how to keep trusting God even when your world falls apart.
I dont know what you mean by prescriptions? The only deffinition I know of for prescriptions is when you get one from a doctor for an illness. Perhaps your could provide an example of an old testament and a new testament passage that contradict each other(if that is what you were refering to).
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
I came to see it this way, when a cousin of a friend of mine had killed someone in a traffic accident. He was 100% convinced that God was testing him.... I asked him: Did you tell the victim's mother her son was killed to 'test' you?
Not exactly the same as Job's story. But you get the point!
prescriptions is the translation of the dutch word 'voorschriften'
Practically any chapter in the said books have a title "voorschriften inzake ......", meaning 'prescriptions in case of ..... . Please add a sin on the dots.
An example: 'An eye for an eye' in the old testament becomes 'love sinners' in the new testament.
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
Aren't you a Communist? I thought Commies had to be atheist.
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
@Sire Eric:
prescriptions = orders
prescriptions = orders
JonathanValjean
Porschephile
The answer as to why Jesus gave many instructions in the New Testament that replaced those found in the Old Testament is clear from both your statement and mine: Jesus was a fulfillment of the prophecies in the "Old" Testment and was establishing a "New" Testament with his people. Many of the "old" ways and customs were abolished and/or replaced by the "new" ways. (Other words for testament would be "pact" or "covenant.")
(BTW, how is that Fiat 850 doing?)
JonathanValjean
Porschephile
Exactly. Science deals with those things within the realm of the natural. God, by his very nature, lies outside of the natural realm, and in the supernatural.
floppa21
Crusty Manhole
So God is on par with the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, etc... But it is OKAY to believe in God far past 7 or 8 years old. Why is that?
JoeM skirted the issue all morning, even made me leave a thread for another to NOT discuss it with him...
JoeM skirted the issue all morning, even made me leave a thread for another to NOT discuss it with him...
newfangle
hates you.
This entire thread is pointless. Of course I can prove there is no God. I simply have to perceive the world around me. The concept of God is a creation by man. The role of man IS NOT TO CREATE REALITY, but to observe it.
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
I've been over and over the symbolism behind the Seven Days, and I'm not going into it again. AS to the 'day and a night' bit: it was yet more symbolism. The 'day and a a night' referred to in the first Chapter of Genesis several times was not a literal day, it indicated that for God, a period of expenditure of effort and so forth equivalent to a day's work for a man had gone by. Maybe the reason we 'went south' on God was because He'd been up for five days straight, in godly terms, when He started making us...
No, they have proof of monkeys way back then that they think were precursors to modern apes and humans, but they base that on bone fragments and incomplete skeletons, and frequently play 'mix and match' in the parts bins to make new research paper materiel.
Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law as prophecy foretold. In return, he made a new covenant with man in order to provide a hope of redemption to eternal life as God intended. The old ways were out, the new ways were in.
'Do as I say, not as I do.' We have our rules, God has His. Do not presume to be in a position to judge Him based on our morality. Will YOU listen to the judgements of an ant against the man who stepped upon their anthill? Then how can you expect God to listen to our judgements against Him?
It certainly does, and is. Satan is doing everything he can in his last days of freedom to bring as many men to ruin with him as possible. Jesus has taken the throne, and will soon send his army forth to clease the world, and Satan knows it. Filled with anger, he seeks to destroy as much as he can that is good before the one who is coming sets things right again.
God warned us that the sins of the father would be visited upon his sons for seven generations. This was not some sort of ultra-harsh judgement, this was a plain and simple warning: do stupid things to your body and your culture and your economic status, and you and your children, and very likely their children's children's children's children. will all suffer for it. Africa is a place where this lesson is plain to see.
And enough demons to go around to make sure that no one cares enough to fix it.
JonathanValjean
Porschephile
Yes, man need not create reality, as it seems plausible that some great power already created it for him. It seems that there would be nothing to observe and no observers if there were not an infinitely powerful first cause, which has existed eternally and who was willing to create the reality that we have around us and to share it with us.
