Prussians

Yes, you are right - Lithuanian settlers immigrated to Prussia, and that's how the area got Lithuanized.

Not sure you are right there. As far as we know 'Baltia' was a continuum just like Slavia and Romancia were (even in the early modern era). 'Lithuanians' were a political grouping, not a linguistic grouping, the 'language' follows from the politics, not vice-versa.
 
'Lithuanians' were a political grouping, not a linguistic grouping, the 'language' follows from the politics, not vice-versa.

They were in fact both. And the language does not always follow the politics - had this been the general rule, then entire Belarus and Lithuania should be speaking the same language, since both regions were part of the same policy for a very long time. Instead, "political Lithuanians" spoke at least several distinct languages - including Belarusian, Polish, Lithuanian and Yiddish.

Moreover, Lithuanians in Prussia were actually never part of "political Lithuanians" - since no part of that area ever under direct sovereignity of Lithuanian rulers in period between 1422 (the Treaty of Melno, which defined the north-western border of Lithuania for the next 500 years) and 1918.

Ethno-linguistic transformations (such as the switch from one language to another) - though greatly influenced by political, cultural and religious changes - often take place quite independently from the latter three, and not always follow them.

That was particularly true in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, where Baltic Lithuanian language failed to dominate and instead at first Ruthenian (Old Belarusian) and then Polish became - next to Latin - the two official languages of the state. As the result Lithuanian language was rooted out almost completely from many areas (such as the Vilna Region) and replaced by Slavic languages (either Ruthenian or Polish, or at first by Ruthenian and then by Polish), while in other areas (such as the Kovno Governorate) Lithuanian survived almost exclusively among peasants and some part of petty nobles (the latter was the case especially in Samogitia).

For example in the Vilna County - which encompassed the countryside and small towns around the city of Vilna (but not the city itself) - according to the 1909 Russian census Lithuanian-speakers were only 7,2% of the total population, while 71,4% were Polish-speaking and Belarusian-speaking Roman Catholics, and the remaining 21,4% were Orthodox Christians (Slavic-speaking, mostly Belarusian-speakers) and Jews. In the city of Vilnius the proportion was even less favourable, with only 4,7% of the population being Lithuanian-speakers in 1909. Wileńszczyzna region had only negligible Lithuanian population by the end of the 19th century. The only controversy was whether its population was more Polish or more "Russian", since according to Russian propaganda, there were a lot of "Russian Catholics", who were allegedly not Poles. In reality most of the region was already Polish-speaking, but even East Slavic Belarusian-speaking Catholics identified as Poles, as opposed Orthodox Belarusian-speakers who usually didn't.

In entire Vilna Governorate according to 1897 census 59,6% of the population were Roman Catholics - of whom only 17,8% were Lithuanian-speakers and 41,8% were Slavic-speakers (Polish or Russian - including Great Russian, Little Russian and White Russian). According to 1909 census 60,7% of the population were Roman Catholics - of whom only 13,6% were Lithuanian-speakers and 47,1% were Slavic-speakers.

In the Kovno Governorate in 1897 among the total population 68,6% were agricultural population (peasants), but among Lithuanian-speakers - 85,4%. Lithuanian-speakers were 66,0% of the total population of this Governorate, but 82,2% among agricultural population.

As far as we know 'Baltia' was a continuum just like Slavia and Romancia were (even in the early modern era).

And Germania too, by the way. However, all of them were continuums of stair type - some boundaries were sharper than others. AFAIK you are not a professional linguist and neither am I, but I have read quite a lot about this and I know that for example Slovene language was very distinct from Old Church Slavonic already in the 10th century, when the Freising mnauscripts (in Old Slovene) were written.

Professional linguists can define approximate boundaries between languages, and within those languages also smaller sub-divisions can be identified - namely dialects and jargons (jargons being sub-divisions of dialects, and dialects of languages).

West Baltic languages were distinct from East Baltic languages. Today a popular theory is that there was never a Common Baltic language (which later diversified into West and East branches - as was thought in the past), but that West Baltic and East Baltic split directly from Balto-Slavic, and independently from each.

Surviving texts in Old Prussian language show that it was considerably different from Lithuanian. The two were certainly not mutually intelligible, given that probably even various Prussian dialects were not mutually intelligible - at least in the 16th century that was the case (for example we find information that Albrecht Hohenzollern ordered to translate Catechism to Old Prussians, and later he ordered to publish 2nd edition in another Prussian dialect, because not all Prussians could fully understand the 1st edition). But it is possible that various Prussian dialects became more diversified from each other after the conquest and Christianization, under the result of influence of foreign languages (for example, many loanwords from Polish can be seen in surviving Old Prussian texts).

Not sure you are right there.

Lithuanian immigration to East Prussia is well attested in sources of all kinds.

The eastern part of East Prussia (the borderland between the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the State of the Teutonic Order) from the late 13th to the first half of the 15th centuries was very sparsely populated, heavily forested, and was known as "Grosse Wildnis" ("Great Wilderness").

That area was a frequent battlefield between the Teutonic Order and Pagan Lithuanian raiders. Therefore the Teutonic Order evacuated most of the remaining Old Prussian population from that region and resettled them to provinces located farther west. Only some people, living forest lifestyle remained there, but agricultural population was largely evacuated and fields were abandoned - that's how the region became "Grosse Wildnis".

Only later, when the devastating wars ended, the area started to be repopulated. Already in the 15th century spontaneous influx of Lithuanian settlers from the east started, and in the 16th century Duke Albrecht Hohenzollern invited more Lithuanians to settle in his lands, to help rebuild the war-devastated economy.

As the result Lithuanian immigrants moved in and the North-Eastern part of Prussia became known as "Klein Litauen" ("Lithuania Minor").

Of course those Lithuanians who moved in assimilated any groups of Old Prussian population that they encountered on their own. Those local Old Prussian groups - however - were very few in numbers, because the area was sparsely populated and largely deprived of large settlements and of permnanent agriculture.

That said, many Old Prussians from areas located farther west also participated in colonization of "Great Wilderness" - so Old Prussian settlers coming from the west would encounter Lithuanian settlers coming from the east, and the two groups would colonize the area together (in addition there was also influx of Polish settlers from the south, plus some Germans as well).

Anyway - it is right to say that the area was Lithuanized by Lithuanian immigration, combined - of course - with assimilation (Lithuanization) of some Prussians.
 
I suspect if Gediminas had conquered Prussia, and subsequently that Lithuanian realm had been ruled by Slavic or German speakers, they'd all have been classed as 'Lithuanians' speaking 'dialects of Lithuanian'. Likewise, if a Mazovian conqueror of Greater Poland had converted to Christianity, people in Gniezno would be speaking a 'Polish dialect of Mazovian'.
 
Well, maybe.

For example this (1): Wymysorys / Wilamowicean / Wymysiöeryś dialect (or rather jargon):

http://inne-jezyki.amu.edu.pl/Frontend/Language/Details/10

A Welmeßajer ai Berlin

Kom of Berlin a froumer Welmeßajer,
Un wou a stond, an wou a ging,
Om Reng, ai olla Gossa, olla Stroßa,
Do rief a met sem tiefa Baß:
‘Kajf Drellich! faina Welmeßajer Drellich!’
Sou tree har’s fort de ganze Woch‘/
De fremda Loit, se hon an wing verstanda,
Ma docht‘ har wär vo England har.
-Dos ei kaj Wuinder; denn de Welmeßajer,
Die stomma jou vo derta har. –

================

And this (2): aljzjnerisch / aljznerisch and päuersch / pauerisch (also "Ens're alde Hajmetsproch" - "Our old mothertongue"):

http://inne-jezyki.amu.edu.pl/Frontend/Language/Details/11

De jeschta Ajlzner
Vu Alzenaa
em Fränkischa
met Bow an Kejnd,
met Fad an Rejnd
de Schles ganz düöchj
wie Schnepf an Schtüöchj
sän se gezünj,
bi se verlüönj
em Bajgsgehelz
ne wäjt vu Beltz
de Wanderlost...

“Bränj eta Post
zum Fjeschta hejn,
do wir do bläjn!“
suojt Uma Hans
zum „Welda Franz“
an trät ien Scheld,
es Schmatzasbeld,
zur greßta Ajchj:
„Beschitz vir Pajchj,
Krieg, Kranket, Nut,
an helf zu Brut,
Maria ens!“
A Scheßl Brens
schtiäkt nom Gebat.
Nocht keemt de At:
Ficht fällt vir Ficht,
der Pusch wjed licht;
kaj Woch vergejt
ans Diäfla schtejt...
“Wie hajß wer, Vüöt,
et enesen Üöt?“
frät Hettnesch Franz
dan Uma Hans.
“No wie denn? A
ok Alzenaa!“

Were all classified as dialects / jargons of German language.

Even though speakers of (1) actually have a legend about being descendants of Harald's warriors at Hastings who emigrated to Poland:


Link to video.

Dialects_map.png


After WW2 inhabitants of this region were not deported because they strongly assured everyone that they were not Germans, but locals.

Apparently German nationalism, which emerged in the 19th century, did not influence this area. Standard German language also did not reach it.

Teaching Wymysorys dialect:


Link to video.
 
speakers of (1) actually have a legend about being descendants of Harald's warriors at Hastings who emigrated to Poland:

After WW2 inhabitants of this region were not deported because they strongly assured everyone that they were not Germans, but locals.

Well, wiki says that they are rather descendants of Mel Gibson's... pardon, William Wallace's warriors. But their language has some Old English features:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wymysorys_language

Wymysorys (Wymysiöeryś), also known as Vilamovian or Wilamowicean, is a West Germanic micro-language actively used in the small town of Wilamowice, Poland (Wymysoü in Wymysorys), on the border between Silesia and Lesser Poland, near Bielsko-Biała.[3][4] It is considered an endangered language.[3] At present, there are probably between 70 and 100[3][5] native users of Wymysorys, virtually all bilingual and the majority of them are elderly people.[3]

In origin, Wymysorys appears to derive from 12th-century Middle High German, with a strong influence from Low German, Dutch, Frisian, Polish and Old English.[3] The inhabitants of Wilamowice are thought to be descendants of German, Flemish and Scottish settlers who arrived in Poland during the 13th-century. However, the inhabitants of Wilamowice always denied any connections with Germany and proclaimed their Flemish origins.[6] Although related to German, Wymysorys is not mutually intelligible with standard German (as is also true for most German dialects, though).[7]

Wymysorys was the vernacular language of Wilamowice until 1939–1945. However, it seems it has been in decline since late 19th century. In 1880 as much as 92% of the town's inhabitants spoke Wymysorys (1525 out of 1662), in 1890 - only 72%, in 1900 - 67%, in 1910 - 73% again.[8] Although Wymysorys was taught in local schools (under the name of "local variety of German"), since 1875 the basic language of instruction in most schools in Austro-Hungarian Galicia was Polish.[8] During World War II and the German occupation of Poland Wymysorys was openly promoted by the Nazi administration, but after the war the tables turned: local communist authorities forbade the use of Wymysorys in any form.[8] Although common bilingualism saved most local residents from being forcibly resettled to Germany, many of them stopped teaching their children their language or even use it in daily life.[9] Although the ban was lifted after 1956, Wymysorys has been gradually replaced by Polish, especially amongst the younger generations.

Some more info: http://historum.com/european-history/41260-teutonic-knights-74.html#post2056400?postcount=737
 
I thought this thread could be interesting, but if there is some of it, it is lost in the usual loosely connected exhibition of overwhelming proof of ... something.
 
:whew: I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that.
 
Well I must agree with you, the thread turned out to be a bit too "chaotic".

But I hope you will find this interesting. Previously I wrote:

Domen said:
I will post some estimates on proportions of Old Prussian and other ancestries in East Prussia soon.

Early figures on languages are very useful, for example from 1825 census.

As promised - based on several good history books and other sources I made a preliminary estimate of the origin of East Prussian population. My estimate is for population of originally ethnic Prussian territory, which later (after 1283) was located within the borders of the Teutonic Order's state in Prussia. So my estimate doesn't include descendants of Prussians and Yotvingians who stayed outside of those borders and it also doesn't include areas within those borders which were not originally part of ethnic Old Prussian territory. If we go by 1816 administrative borders then this area includes almost entire East Prussia - apart from the Memel county, and also seven north-eastern counties of West Prussia (Elbing, Marienburg, Stuhm, Rosenberg, Löbau, Marienwerder and Graudenz).

Basically we are talking about violet area located within blue political borders (map below):

Prussians.png


I stopped counting at 1816 because around that point in time (1815-1816) population of this area reached about 1 million people.

So I would need another graph for years after 1816, because natural growth was high and population was rocketing.

Also, in the 19th century (especially the 2nd half of it) emigration from this area considerably exceeded immigration to it (for the first time in history) - so probably proportions of various ancestries did not change much after 1816, at least not due to immigration.

Here is the result of my calculations - as of 1816 (the end of the period for which I made estimates): 32-33% Old Prussian ancestry, 28-29% German, 19-20% Polish, 16-17% Lithuanian, 1-2% Dutch & Scottish, 1-2% Huguenot & French, 1-2% other:

Estimated percentage of each ancestry within the total population pool throughout time:

East_Prussians.png


And size of the population during 600 years from the early 1200s to the early 1800s:

East_Prussians_B.png


This estimate is rather quite optimistic for Prussians, though - I actually expected to arrive at a lower figure of around 25% percent, but not lower than 20%. So consider 32% or 1/3 as high estimate (but probable one according to this model), 25% as medium estimate and 20% as low estimate. Some of Old Prussians were assimilated by Polish and Lithuanian immigrants to East Prussia throughout history. Later, however, most of Prussian Lithuanians and most of Prussian Poles became Germanized, so most of this ancestry is today in Germany anyway. But some of their descendants still live in Poland and Lithuania.

====================================

Now when it comes to languages:

During first 25 years of the 19th century only about 49-50% up to 60-64% of this area's population spoke German as first language. The rest spoke Polish (32/31% - 24/23%) and Lithuanian (19% - 13/12%) as first languages. Often German as secondary. Of course not everyone who spoke Polish or Lithuanian had purely Polish or Lithuanian ancestry. They had also assimilated groups of Prussians.
 
Pangur Bán,

Regarding various Medieval languages and distinguishing between them:

We have written texts in Polish language dating back to the 13th century, and that language is not much different from modern Polish.

Here you can listen to it (scroll down to the bottom of the page and play "Kazanie V. Na Objawienie Pańskie. Czyta Zbigniew Zapasiewicz"):

http://www.bn.org.pl/aktualnosci/71-odszedl-mistrz-slowa.html

And here is the text (it is Sermon V of the Holy Cross Sermons - one of the oldest surviving texts in Polish, from the 1200s):

http://staropolska.pl/sredniowiecze/kazania_i_mowy/V_Trzech_Kroli.html

Wikipedia article about the Holy Cross Sermons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_Sermons

This 13th century Polish of these sermons cannot be confused with for example Czech language, either modern or also from that time.

====================================

Text of prayer in Polish "Krystus z martwych wstał je" (which was Polish translation of "Christ der ist erstanden") is believed to be from the late 11th century, even though the oldest surviving copy is from 1365 (but archaic forms like wstał je, dał je, wstaci, krolewaci suggest that it is much older than 1365, and some historians suggested that it was translated from German to Polish by daughter of Polish King Mieszko II and his German wife Richeza):


Link to video.

Bogurodzica is also very old, from the 13th century (or at least first two stanzas are from the 13th century):

http://staropolska.pl/sredniowiecze/poezja_religijna/bogurodzica/bogurodzica.html
 
Pangur Ban said:
Lithuanian settlers immigrated to Prussia, and that's how the area got Lithuanized.
Not sure you are right there.
Check:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...of-Lithuania&p=1446395&viewfull=1#post1446395

Skomand said:
1466 is a key date: peace treaty of Melno. Now the Lithuanians arrived, partly recruited by the Order, partly deserting Lithuania. They cultivated what was called the "Große Wildnis" (the Great Wilderness), uninhabited woodland, a buffer zone between the crusaders and Lithuania.
Some old settlements in the wilderness were Tilsit, Insterburg, Schloßberg ... with a population of assimilated Old Prussians and Germans, they continued to exist and harboured the Prussian administration and German craftsmen. Lithuanians were predominantly peasants.
Round 1550 the major emigration wave of Lithuanians (estimated at a total of 1/1500 families) was over. From now on the descendants of these settlers populated what was to become Prussian-Lithuania.
When the Great Plague struck in 1709, the population had grown to about 300 000 people, overwhelmingly Lithuanian with areas up to 100 per cent Lithuanian.
Skomand said:
"Round 1400" is the major reference point when you talk about the settlement of what was to become "Prussian-Lithuania" later: the point when it was the least inhabited.
It has been established in the most authoritative study of the area by the Mortensen couple:

Hans Mortensen und Gertrud Mortensen: Die Besiedlung des nordöstlichen Ostpreußens bis zum Beginn des 17.Jahrhunderts.

Band 1: Die preußisch-deutsche Siedlung am Westrand der Großen Wildnis um 1400. Leipzig, 1937
Band 2: Die Wildnis im östlichen Preußen, ihr Zustand um 1400 und ihre frühere Besiedlung. Leipzig 1938
--------
Band 3: could not be published in 1938 due to Nazi censorship (after all it proved that the area had been up to 100 per cent inhabited by Lithuanians)
in the near future it will be published as

Jähnig, Bernhart und Vercamer, Grischa: Hans und Gertrud Mortensen: Die Besiedlung des nordöstlichen Ostpreußen bis zum Beginn des 17. Jahrhunderts. Die Einwanderung der Litauer nach Ostpreußen.

There are no "real statistics". What I said was in reference to a line that I can see in volume I of "Mazosios Lietuvos Enciklopedija": the southernmost line of the use of Lithuanian in church (irrespective of the percentage of speakers).
From west to east the line runs through the towns of:

Sventapile - Zintai - Ylava - Barstinas - Lagagarbis - Barciai - Ungura - Kuciai - Gurniai
( more or less meandering along the Potsdam line, accident? )

Map showing most of Prussian Lithuania, with villages and towns, ca. year 1540:

http://hostarea.de/show.php/295735_karte9b-besiedlung-um-1540-nach-a-mtern-02.jpg.html

Spoiler :
i295735_karte9b-besiedlung-um-1540-nach-a-mtern-02.jpg

All the names of the tax-payers from that area in 1540 have been preserved. They are listed in these books:

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540. Band 2: Memel, Tilsit. (Sonderschrift 88/2), 331 S. u. 2 Karten. Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., Hamburg 2007 (flächendeckendes Namensregister der steuerzahlenden Bevölkerung)

- Hans Heinz Diehlmann (Hrsg.): Die Türkensteuer im Herzogtum Preußen 1540, Band 3: Ragnit, Insterburg, Saalau, Georgenburg. (Sonderschrift 88/3), Verein für Familienforschung in Ost- und Westpreußen e.V., 88/3, Hamburg 2008

===================================

Colonization patterns:

kuhnsiedlung.jpg


===================================

Ethnic Curonian territories:

700px-Bild_Karte_Das_lettische_Sprachgebiet_in_Ostpreussen.gif
 
Pangur Bán,

Previously I wrote:

Today a popular theory is that there was never a Common Baltic language (which later diversified into West and East branches - as was thought in the past), but that West Baltic and East Baltic split directly from Balto-Slavic, and independently from each other.

This model was first suggested by Kromer in 2003 - as the graph below illustrates:

Balto-Slavic_theories_Kromer.svg


The graph illustrates several models of Balto-Slavic interactions, trying to explain similarities between the two groups (Schleicher - common ancestral language separating into Baltic and Slavic; Endzelins - two separate languages which came under influence of each other at some point; Rozwadowski - common ancestry, then separation, followed by becoming close neighbours again; Meillet - prolonged close influences despite lack of common ancestry; Kromer - common ancestry with Baltia never constituting a linguistic unity, but East Baltic and West Baltic groups separating directly from Balto-Slavic).

All models before Kromer assumed that Baltic group was a unity at some point, and only later separated into East and West groups.

Here the theories of Schleicher and Endzelins are outlined:

The close relationship of the Baltic and Slavic languages is indicated by a series of common innovations not shared with other Indo-European languages, and by the fact that the relative chronology of these innovations can be established. Furthermore, there are also many correspondences in vocabulary: the Baltic and Slavic languages share many inherited words. These are either not found at all in other Indo-European languages (except when borrowed) or are inherited from Proto-Indo-European but have undergone identical changes in meaning when compared to other Indo-European languages.

Baltic and Slavic share many close phonological, lexical, morphosyntactic and accentological similarities. The notable early Indo-Europeanist August Schleicher (1861) proposed a simple solution: From Proto-Indo-European descended Proto-Balto-Slavic, out of which Proto-Baltic and Proto-Slavic emerged. The Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, however, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact.

There is also no perfect agreement on when did the separation of Slavic and Baltic (or both Baltic groups) take place.

Proposed dates range from ca. 1500 BCE to ca. 500 BCE (3500 - 2500 years ago):

Atkinson - 1400 BCE
Novotná & Blažek - 1400–1340 BCE
Sergei Starostin - 1210 BCE
Chang et. al. - 600 BCE (http://www.linguisticsociety.org/files/news/ChangEtAlPreprint.pdf)

Before that separation it is assumed that a Balto-Slavic linguistic community existed, or both groups lived together.

There is also no agreement as to where were proto-homelands of speakers of those languages.
 
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