Public Investigation: People vs. Octavian X Part II

[naervod]

Donsig has requested a Public Investigation of Vice-President Octavian X. He is charged with violating section D.1.C.1 of the Code of Laws of Fanatika:

A governor’s build queues may be preempted under certain circumstances:
a. Presidential decree supported by Administrative Council Vote.
b. Military Leader decree during invasion of the province.
c. Cultural Leader decree for cultural border expansion or defense.

Specifcally he is alleged to have unlawfully changed the build queue's for the cities of Bremershaven, Civanatoria, and New Falcon's Nest. He did this as the Designated Player for the turn-chat in which this was done.

Also, donsig has provided more evidence:

1000 AD Instruction Thread
This thread has the governor's queues, the saves from 1000 AD and 1010 AD as well as the chat log. An examination of the saves will show that no Indian, Babylonian or Persian units were or are in the Southwest Province.

1000 AD Instruction Thread
The first post in this thread contains a map of the Southwest Province.

Here is an excerpt from the chat log (edited):

[23:07] <@Falcon02> we need more muskets
[23:07] <+DX_Zoi> ya think?
[23:08] <@Octavian_X> then both Strum and hunt would be undefended
[23:09] <@Falcon02> so once the Pike gets to Strumandrang, send the Musket.... gonna take a while, but I don't wanna leave a city undefended now
[23:09] <@Octavian_X> I see
[23:09] <@Octavian_X> Waht about the musket outside serenity?
[23:12] <@Octavian_X> Shimonoseki musket?
[23:13] <@Falcon02> Tlax, NFN, Highlands, Strider's Haven, Civanatoria, Bremershaven, switch to Musket please
[23:13] <@Octavian_X> waste 6 sheilds in muskets?
[23:13] <@Falcon02> send it to Kyoto
[23:14] <@Falcon02> any which are gonna waste, don't switch

Donsig also provided this evidence to combat the Public Defender's possible defense.

CoL: C.2.G.7 (Military Department

Can supercede a provincial build queue with military units or improvements during time of invasion.
Invasion is the presence of offensive troops belonging to a country we are at war with inside the borders of the province to be superceded.

The military leader did request these queue changes but he had not authority to change them since there were no enemy troops within the Southwest Province. In the absence of a legal military over-ride the only way these changes could have been legally made was through an Administrative council vote and this was not done.

The first two posts of this thread are reserved for the defendant's defense arguments and the Public Defender's defense arguments. The thread is open to anyone for discussion after 24 hours. PM's are being sent to the defendant and the Public Defender notifying them of the charges.

 

[Octavian X]

I plead innocent of all charges.

I will submit this map of the Southwest Province (circa 1000AD) as evidence.

As you can clearly see, the Babylonian city of Izibia lies within the Southwest Province. There are enemy troops within that city.

CoL C.2.G.7 never states that the units must be inside Fanatikan territory, simply within provincal borders. As is plainly visible, Babylonian riflemen, frequently used as offensive troops, are stationed within the city.

 

[Shaitan]

Octavian is not guilty of any infraction here. Plain and simple, it is the DP's duty to follow the orders that have been given to him by the Leaders. We cannot put a burden on the DP where they are responsible for the legality of the orders that they are given. How much would get accomplished if the DP had to verify that every single instruction was the "will of the people", had been "organized" correctly, etc.

To reiterate, the Designated Player must not be put into a position where they must question everything they are told to do. That would be not only incredibly inefficient but totally unfair. In addition, it is not at all necessary. The Leaders are responsible to post instructions, the DP is responsible for following them. If an illegal instruction is posted it is the Leader who broke the law for posting the instruction, not the DP for following it as he is supposed to.

 

[donsig]

OK, it's been 24 hours since the thread was opened so we can start posting now.

I am shocked that our Vice-President has pled innocent here. I am even more shocked that a member of our Judiciary has taken the stance that we cannot put a burden on the DP where they are responsible for the legality of the orders that they are given. Asking the DP to be aware of rules and to follow them to the best of his or her ability is not asking too much. It is also not the same as asking the DP to verify that every instruction is based on the will of the people.

The Public Defender said in his defense post:

The Leaders are responsible to post instructions, the DP is responsible for following them.

I agree entirely and that's why I asked for this public investigation. Here are the instructions that were posted. Octavian X did not follow these instructions.

If we allow this investigation to be squelched on a technicality or we accept the defense, I was only following orders then we open the door for all sorts of abuses by our leaders and the DP.

 

[Cyc]

I agree with donsig. The DP should always question what they are told to do, Shaitan. If Fionn had come to the chat and told the DP to declare war on a Nation and the DP did it, would we be able to PI the DP? Not according to your reasoning. He was just following orders from a Leader and shouldn't have to verify the legality of the instruction.

You also say, Shaitan, that Leaders are responsible to POST instructions, and the DP is responsible for following them. This is true, but Falcon02's instructions were not posted. They were give "live" in the t/c. There's quite a difference there, as it is common knowledge that if instructions aren't posted in the instruction thread, they don't exist.

 

[Shaitan]

The burden that donsig wishes to place on the DP is far too heavy. He essentially wants the DP to become the Leader Police and to be responsible for monitoring their actions.

In a perfect world the DP would have at his fingertips every bit and scrap of information so would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that every action he and everybody else took was both legal and approved by the citizenry. That world doesn't exist. In our world we elect Leaders who give instructions to the DP. The DPs follow those orders.

In this particular case, the Military Leader gave orders that the DP followed. The Military Leader does have the power to change build queues during times of invasion (with restrictions). It was a general time of invasion. It is quite reasonable for the DP to know the general rule and not know the individual restrictions on it. They are part of the definition of another position, not his own.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Cyc
I agree with donsig. The DP should always question what they are told to do, Shaitan. If Fionn had come to the chat and told the DP to declare war on a Nation and the DP did it, would we be able to PI the DP? Not according to your reasoning. He was just following orders from a Leader and shouldn't have to verify the legality of the instruction.

Apples and oranges. The Military Leader does not have the power to declare war. He DOES have the power to change build queues.

Originally posted by Cyc
You also say, Shaitan, that Leaders are responsible to POST instructions, and the DP is responsible for following them. This is true, but Falcon02's instructions were not posted. They were give "live" in the t/c. There's quite a difference there, as it is common knowledge that if instructions aren't posted in the instruction thread, they don't exist.

That is 100% untrue. We have Leaders, Deputies and Chat Reps. The reason for all of these backups (ESPECIALLY the Chat Reps) is so the departments can issue instructions during the turn chats.

 

[Chieftess]

Not to mention the fact that troops (cavalry...) can move faster across territory. If we wait until they're in one province, it could be too late.

 

[Cyc]

You're wrong and you know it, Shaitan. The DP can ask for advice from the Leader/Deputy/Chat Rep, and that advice or suggestion can be given. The Leader has already posted the Instructions in said thread. Anything beyond that are above and beyond instructions.

And the Military Leader only has the authority to change build queues in a Province that is being invaded with offensive troops. Quit posting misleading statements.

And that first example was not apples to oranges. You're just using your tricky semantics that you're accusing donsig of using.

 

[Shaitan]

Cyc, I am not wrong and I know it!

Throughout the entire history of chats, Leaders (or departmental reps) have given instructions in the chat. Are you trying to convince people that Leaders do not give instructions in the chat? This is one of the prime reasons that the anti-chat proponents want to get rid of them!!

Yes, the Military Leader has the power to change build queues in provinces that are being invaded. My point is that we cannot force the DP to be a legal expert and verify the legal conditions for every order that he is given. In this case it is well known that the Military Leader can change queues during an invasion. It is not well known that this is restricted to queues in the individual province that has foreign troops on their soil. It is very reasonable that Octavian knew the general rule but not the specific restrictions. He is not the Military Leader. It is not his job to know his powers, responsibilities and restrictions. It is not his job to know every bit of the powers, responsibilities and restrictions of every defined position in the rules.

The phrase "apples to oranges" means comparing things that are not equivalent. That is what you did. Your example, the Military Leader ordering the DP to declare war, is something that is obviously outside his scope of abilities. Changing build queues for military purposes is something inside his scope of abilities.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Shaitan
The burden that donsig wishes to place on the DP is far too heavy. He essentially wants the DP to become the Leader Police and to be responsible for monitoring their actions.

Other than an Adminstrative vote called for by the President there are only two ways to legally over-ride a governor's build queues: military over-ride and cultural over-ride. It is not asking too much to have to DP know these two fundamental rules and police them. That is not the same as having the DP verify the legallity of every intruction posted in the turn chat thread or given in the turn chat.

Using your reasoning Shaitan, the follwing scenario is possible:

A citizen enters the turn chat and asks that war be declared. The DP, not having to check the legality of orders, declares war. Well, of course in my scenario the war is a disaster for Fanatika and PI's call for the DP's head on a platter. The DP pleads ignorance saying he didn't know it wasn't a legal instruction and is acquitted citing this case as precedent. Yes, this scenario pushes the limits but that's what you do when you're trying to draw boundaries. It is not a choice between policing every instruction and blindly following every order. There is a line somewhere in the middle and in this case the instruction given by the military leader falls on the side where the order should have been verified.

@ Chieftess. The rule in question clearly states that the military advisor can only over-ride queues in a province where enemy troops are located. This rule was broken. If you want to arue for leniency becasue it is a bad rule that is fine but you can't argue that the rule wasn't broken. Also, if you think the rule is bad then you should take steps to change the rule.

 

[eyrei]

However, it is understandable that the DP might be confused about exactly when the military leader can override build queues. I am guessing that, were we to have polled the citizens about when the military leader can override build queues (obviously before the rule was stated here), most would simply assume that the military leader can override build queues during a time of war. I am hoping that the point of this PI was simply to educate people about this stipulation so that it does not happen again...

 

[Cyc]

Shaitan, please read your own post. How is the DP to know that declaring WAR on another nation is not in the scope of the Military Leaders responsibilities? Anyone who takes on the responsibilities of the DP position should know these things or expect to get PI'd when they make a mistake. Octavian X is one of our highly legal-minded citizens. He was a Chief Justice once. What your saying doesn't make any sense.

I know what apples to oranges means, Shaitan . You called it apples AND oranges, I was just correcting you. And I was right, it was not. Your trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time, Shaitan. If your going to use an example, make it a universal one, that works for both sides. You claim the DP can't possibly know all the rules, but he can darn sure know yours.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei
However, it is understandable that the DP might be confused about exactly when the military leader can override build queues. I am guessing that, were we to have polled the citizens about when the military leader can override build queues (obviously before the rule was stated here), most would simply assume that the military leader can override build queues during a time of war. I am hoping that the point of this PI was simply to educate people about this stipulation so that it does not happen again...

Yes, that was the point but it seems the lesson to be learned is that there are always ways around the rules and in Fanatika you should not be afraid to bend or break the rules because there will be no repurcussions at all!

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig


Yes, that was the point but it seems the lesson to be learned is that there are always ways around the rules and in Fanatika you should not be afraid to bend or break the rules because there will be no repurcussions at all!

It depends on the rules you are talking about. Certain rules are far more important to others, and generally, once a warning is issued to an official as the result of a PI, they do not commit the offense again. That is enough for me.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei

It depends on the rules you are talking about. Certain rules are far more important to others, and generally, once a warning is issued to an official as the result of a PI, they do not commit the offense again. That is enough for me.

I agree and that would be enough for me but we can't seem to get to the point of issuing the warning!

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Cyc
Shaitan, please read your own post. How is the DP to know that declaring WAR on another nation is not in the scope of the Military Leaders responsibilities? Anyone who takes on the responsibilities of the DP position should know these things or expect to get PI'd when they make a mistake. Octavian X is one of our highly legal-minded citizens. He was a Chief Justice once. What your saying doesn't make any sense.

I know what apples to oranges means, Shaitan . You called it apples AND oranges, I was just correcting you. And I was right, it was not. Your trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time, Shaitan. If your going to use an example, make it a universal one, that works for both sides. You claim the DP can't possibly know all the rules, but he can darn sure know yours.

Declaration of war and overriding build queues are high level authorities. They are also assigned to different Leaders. Every Leader must have a general idea of what general authority each Leader has. What I am saying (over and over again as the point is being consistently ignored) is that the specific details of those authorities are the responsibility of the individual Leaders, not the DP. Yes, Octavian should have known (and did know) that the Military Leader can override queues for military purposes. No, he is not responsible for knowing the subrule restrictions on that authority. And comparing a high level rule to a sublevel restriction IS comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, Octavian X was a Justice member. That was quite a while ago. I wrote most of the laws and I don't remember all of them. Reference my error in the last elections when I posted the polls a day early. So yes, I am totally comfortable with the idea that he remembered the gist of the rule and not the minutiae of it.

 

[Shaitan]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, using real live people in a genuine situation.

In the current case against the Judiciary, eyrei appointed Cyc as a sort of Special Prosecutor to replace Naervod. In our rules there is absolutely no provision for this and there is certainly no provision for anybody to summarily replace an elected official. So, eyrei could be PI'd for this as it is not a legal action.

Cyc began acting in his specially appointed role. Using the logic being presented by the antagonists here, Cyc would also be guilty because he is following an illegal order. If he plead that he didn't know it was illegal we could dismiss that because as an acting Leader we demand that he know and follow all of the rules and we hold him accountable for the orders that are given to him.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

The way I see it, is that unless Eyrei appoints Cyc to his role as a Moderator, which I assume he has, then there is no authority.

As to this case, Octavian is clearly guilty of the charges. The rules on queue overrides are not particularly complex, and this is not a case where proper instruction wasn't given already by the governor.

It is not the intent of the game to make it easier for turn chat issues to override properly posted build instructions.

If the military wanted queue changes to be made, then absent an invasion, they needed to lobby the appropriate governors for those changes.

 

[Octavian X]

My defense, after an hour or so of thinking, has been posted.