Well, there is historical precedent for leniency in the case of ignorance of a law in Fanatika. See the PI of SAaM for a much more serious offense than what the judiciary is accused of doing, where his only defense was ignorance of the law.
Public Investigation: People vs. The Judiciary
- Thread starter naervod
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Cyc
Looking for the door...
Well now eyrei, we're treading on shaky legal ground. I could put up a rebuttal here, but that would probably compromise the trial process, as Shaitan has suggested. Sorry, I can't go there.
Donsig,
My intent was that Cyc act as Judge Advocate for this case.
My intent was that Cyc act as Judge Advocate for this case.
donsig
Low level intermediary
But that PI went through the complete process, had a verdict poll and a sentencing poll. The call for leniency was not universal. SAaM was only a couple votes away from being suspended from the demogame.
I think this idea of ignorance of the rules is critical. It's the same defense Shaitan is trying to use to get Octavian X acquitted. It's a defense that can be used in any PI and I think it's time we put an end to it's use by showing that rule breaking will be punished whether the perpetrator knows the rules or not. This will ensure that people in leadership positions learn the rules!
Shaitan
der Besucher
It's not a joke, Cyc. You intentionally poisoned the waters before the defendants could even post a plea. And, if you look at it calmly and cautiously you will see that the accused messed nothing up and that the PI (as requested) was posted quickly and correctly. It was not until a Special Prosecutor was hired that things fell apart.Originally posted by Cyc
Now that's funny, my friend. The accused messed things up so bad that we had to hire a special council to come in here and straighten up the procedural mess. An explanation of this mess was needed to move on from this point, as there was no direction that could be viably given by the accused. Your attempts to discredit me in my hopes to bring the public on-line with the current situation is distasteful, Shaitan.
Since everything has been put on hold, we still have not heard your response to my demands, or if there will be a special council chosen to proceed in this case. More sly tactics, Shaitan. Keep talking and the term will be over before we can bring you to trial.
I must have missed your demands but I had nothing to do with hiring a Special Council nor do I wish to. You will need to discuss that with the Chief Justice and/or eyrei.
Shaitan
der Besucher
Duties of the Judge Advocate do NOT include prosecuting PIs except under very rare circumstances. The Judge Advocate handles the mechanics of the PI. The only time the JA is supposed to prosecute a case is when the accusor wishes to remain anonymous.
In any case, this thread is a complete and utter stampede across the rules. It is also not what donsig wanted. As he clarified, he wants an individual case against each member of the Judiciary. I ask that this thread be closed before the defendants rights are further trampled and that the 3 individual PI threads be opened forthwith.
Further, I would like to note that if the new threads contain a filing of charges that includes things like "All in all, we could pretty much shoot the Three Books with a scatter gun and hit the rules that were broken or ignored by the Judicial Branch in this case" I will raise a stink so great and unholy that the Spirits themselves will wrinkle their noses and look at each other accusingly.
In any case, this thread is a complete and utter stampede across the rules. It is also not what donsig wanted. As he clarified, he wants an individual case against each member of the Judiciary. I ask that this thread be closed before the defendants rights are further trampled and that the 3 individual PI threads be opened forthwith.
Further, I would like to note that if the new threads contain a filing of charges that includes things like "All in all, we could pretty much shoot the Three Books with a scatter gun and hit the rules that were broken or ignored by the Judicial Branch in this case" I will raise a stink so great and unholy that the Spirits themselves will wrinkle their noses and look at each other accusingly.
Alright then, I ask that Cyc, as acting JA in these trials, open a separate PI thread for each member of the judiciary. The cases can then be prosecuted by the accuser, and anyone else who wants to join in. I just want these over with, so that we might focus on more important things. Once these new threads are opened, I am going to close this thread to avoid confusion.
The sooner we start, the sooner this can be history.
Veera Anlai
Southern Belle
I apologize for not shooting this post down earlier. Public Investigations are made against *individuals,* not an entire department. Multiple times in CoL.H, it refers to 'the defendant,' 'the suspect.' "If a citizen believes that someone has violated a law..."
I'd also like to address a point by Cyc...
I have a life beyond the demogame, as much as it may seem surprising.
I'd also like to address a point by Cyc...
I realize that this thread was made improperly. However, I was SLEEPING last night when this post was made, and today, I had to go to SCHOOL. I can't close down a thread that I haven't even seen
I have a life beyond the demogame, as much as it may seem surprising.Grandmaster
Deity
Edit: Deleted.
Veera Anlai
Southern Belle
And while we're at it Cyc, it is the right of the Public Defendant and the accused to make posts BEFORE the thread is opened for discussion.
Maybe we should Public Investigate you now.
Maybe we should Public Investigate you now.
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
I believe that individual PI threads are warrented.
Further, I believe that the charges against the CJ have merit, though I have been, and will continue to be, a long time supporter of Veera.
The law was clearly broken when the PI thread was closed prior to the end of 48 hours.
Further, I believe that the charges against the CJ have merit, though I have been, and will continue to be, a long time supporter of Veera.
The law was clearly broken when the PI thread was closed prior to the end of 48 hours.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Thank you, Bill. It's good to hear your stable voice in these unclear times.
At this time, I would like to request clarification of my authority of putting together the Special Council to preside over this trial. I believe eyrei has been given free reign in this matter, as there is no precedent. There are also no job descriptions for Special Council or rules for the transition of an existing trial to one given to Special Council. There needs to be some leeway in this transition period, such as my first post in this PI and Shaitan's demand of recess for 48 hours.
I will get these new PI's out as soon as possible, but I need this clarification.
At this time, I would like to request clarification of my authority of putting together the Special Council to preside over this trial. I believe eyrei has been given free reign in this matter, as there is no precedent. There are also no job descriptions for Special Council or rules for the transition of an existing trial to one given to Special Council. There needs to be some leeway in this transition period, such as my first post in this PI and Shaitan's demand of recess for 48 hours.
I will get these new PI's out as soon as possible, but I need this clarification.
Bill_in_PDX
Grumpy Submariner
I fully agree with Cyc.
This needs to be cleared up immediately.
This needs to be cleared up immediately.
Octavian X
is not a pipe.
I know I'm being a bit off topic, but does anyone find it odd that almost every time one PI is opened, more are created, or at least attempt to be created?
Veera Anlai
Southern Belle
I disagree, as there is no need to call a special council for this. The only power the Judiciary has in a Public Investigation is to open threads and dismiss cases as having no merit. Beyond that, everything lies within the hands of the Citizens. Since there is no reason to dismiss this particular case as having no merit, there is no reason to create a special council.
The only exception may be to appoint a temporary Public Defender for Shaitan so that he won't be required to defend himself.
The only exception may be to appoint a temporary Public Defender for Shaitan so that he won't be required to defend himself.
Cyc
Looking for the door...
Here we go again, more fillerbustering (sp?). Can we get a delay of game penalty here?
OK, Veera, let's pull some teeth here. Would you be saying that three new investigative threads need to be opened by Naervod as the current JA? If that's the case then donsig would have to present three new requests for PI's, as his first attempt was misunderstood. If this is the case, we need to get the ball rolling on donsig's requests (if I am to be booted out of the processions)
and prevent the current JA from posting until the new requests have been made.
We still have no clarification on the issue, only a new opinion.
OK, Veera, let's pull some teeth here. Would you be saying that three new investigative threads need to be opened by Naervod as the current JA? If that's the case then donsig would have to present three new requests for PI's, as his first attempt was misunderstood. If this is the case, we need to get the ball rolling on donsig's requests (if I am to be booted out of the processions)
and prevent the current JA from posting until the new requests have been made.
We still have no clarification on the issue, only a new opinion.
Grandmaster
Deity
I think its fillabustering, with an "a", not an "er." But I don't suppose that matters much at the moment...
Veera Anlai
Southern Belle
Naervod made a mistake in combining these three PI requests into one. Why can't he be allowed to create the threads the way they were meant to? What a game this is where every tiny mistake leads to PI's and arguments.
Shaitan
der Besucher
I'll fix it up right now. Just to be very clear, the following is me speaking as moderator.
Cyc is appointed as Special Council to handle the Judge Advocate duties for the cases of donsig vs. Judiciary, et al. There will be 3 PIs, one for each member of the Judiciary. Cyc is responsible for performing the duties of Judge Advocate. He is also bound by those same duties and must adhere to them as written in the 3 books.
The Public Defendant and Chief Justice positions are not affected by this decision.
Cyc is appointed as Special Council to handle the Judge Advocate duties for the cases of donsig vs. Judiciary, et al. There will be 3 PIs, one for each member of the Judiciary. Cyc is responsible for performing the duties of Judge Advocate. He is also bound by those same duties and must adhere to them as written in the 3 books.
The Public Defendant and Chief Justice positions are not affected by this decision.
I basically intended, Cyc, that you simply act as Judge Advocate for this case only. Thus, you would have the full responsibilities and powers of that position as they relate to cases against current members of the judiciary and the current charges against them.
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