PYL II, Backstabbers!

[Bandobras Took]

Qin on Emperor/Normal for me. This should be fun

Comments on Qin's start:

Spoiler :

In my opinion, Qin gets the worst start in the game. He starts within walking distance of Catherine's capital to the east, has desert to the west, tundra to the south, and Ragnar and jungle to the north. Very little room to expand and very little of it defensible. I'm interested in seeing how it goes on Emperor with you!

 

[patagonia]

Qin, Emperor/Normal

The Start:

Spoiler :

4000BC - 300AD (127 turns)

Spoiler :

4000BC - Settle in place popping the hut for a map; ooh, there's stone to the SE.

3840BC - Cathy's scout turns up next to Beijing; she must be very close.

3800BC - Hunting > AH.

3680BC - Buddhism FIADL.

3400BC - Hinduism founded in Moscow. Worker complete in Beijing > scout. Moscow is 9E1N of Beijing.

3360BC - AH > Bronze (horses by Beijing).
This raises an interesting question - chariot rush Cathy or stick with the CKN beeline...

3320BC - Ragnar appears from the NW.

3280BC - Monty appears; he's the founder of Buddhism.

3200BC - Alex appears. This place is getting crowded...Athens is 9W1N of Beijing.

2800BC - Bronze > Mysticism.

2520BC - Mysticism > Wheel.

2440BC - Revolt to slavery (1 turn too late); Shanghai founded.

2040BC - Wheel > Meditation.

1600BC - Vicky appears.

==========

925BC - Oracle completed with MC as the free tech; my research rate has been absolutely abysmal, it took an eternity to research priesthood and pottery for some reason.

900BC - Forge completed in Shanghai and an Engineer hired. 34 turns to CKN if iron's available.

550BC - Cathy declares on Louis (Hindu/Jewish rivalry coming to the fore).

50BC - Thomas Edison (GE) born in Shanghai; Shanghai builds Colossus.

1AD - Alex declares war. Machinery discovered. Time to start chopping those forests round Beijing into CKN.

25AD - Gotta love protective in this situation:

175AD - GG born, settled in Beijing.

300AD - The fightback begins...

Alex will currently give construction for peace, which might not be a bad idea since it would allow me to turn my attention to Cathy who's starting to run away in power. I've currently got 9CKN and will have 3 more out in the next 3 turns, so militarily things are going very well (that stack will be more than enough to sack any AI capital, and I've only lost 1 unit so far @ 90.9% odds of winning). My economy's non-existent, but war booty will be enough to get one set up via CoL and currency.

 

[patagonia]

Comments on Qin's start:

Spoiler :

In my opinion, Qin gets the worst start in the game. He starts within walking distance of Catherine's capital to the east, has desert to the west, tundra to the south, and Ragnar and jungle to the north. Very little room to expand and very little of it defensible. I'm interested in seeing how it goes on Emperor with you!

Spoiler :

Without a CKN beeline, I think I'd have been stuffed. Qin's capital is very poor and there's no room to expand peacefully in any direction, with good city sites at a premium. I really suffered from a lack of commerce early in the game, but hopefully having the Colossus will help ease that problem as I capture more AI cities.

Protective has shown its worth in helping to neutralize the inevitable attack from Alex (I'd noticed his troop buildup and stationed 2C1 axes and 3CG2 archers in Shanghai to deal with it). I think the best move now is likely to be to eliminate Greece to secure the land to the west and then trim a couple of cities off Cathy to the east, ready for a more sustained war in the future. I could try and buddy up to her instead, but I was deliberately not cultivating a relationship there since she was my intended first target before Alex stuck his oar in.

 

[Quotey]

Suggest that we record backstabs. If an AI declares at pleased, record it as a backstab. At cautious, record it as a semi backstab. Annoyed? Justified. Furious? You deserved it.

Montezuma, Prince AggAI, Epic

Turns 1-84, 4000BC-1900BC

Spoiler :

I went with Prince, AggAI. Never played with AggAI before, but I always get declared on before AD on Monarch, so probably same.

Aztec start:

ss1

So, at the end of a Peninsula, on the coast.

I'M declaring this game.

Start on Fishing.

On turn 6 I pop a hut and get The Wheel. And then meet Victoria. For each good thing, bad thing, y'know.

In the coming years I meet Louis to the south, and Cathy.

My tech path was: The Wheel, Fishing, Mining, Bronze Working, Archery, Animal Husbandry, Writing, Pottery.

Oh, and on turn 42 my scout got eaten.

My round ends at turn 84, after Teotihuacan is founded.

side note: Does anyone know how to say Teotihuacan? I'm fine with Most Aztec city names (and Tzintzuntzen is awesome) but this one gets me because I dunno whether huac is WHACK or HOO-ACK. Tee-oh-she-whak-an is how I read it now.

 

[Bandobras Took]

@ Patagonia

Spoiler :

If you can take Alexander, I think you're set; he's got some prime real estate. Very impressive!

 

[Gocho]

Ended up going with England/Monarch/Marathon/Start-1000BC

Spoiler :

Didn't get a starting SS but corn and lots of floodplains makes me happy!

MMM truffles, and for a change the event happened on a workable tile!

4 cities up, 2 more border cities going up in the next few turns.

I've done a REALLY bad job scouting the area so far and I lost the race to the great wall by 2 turns (didn't want to whip it) but I did get Stonehenge at least.

Teching Metal Casing myself even though the oracle hasn't been build yet as I want it for sure for the forge happy bonuses. I will happily cottage up my land peacefully as long as the AI will let me, in this game that might not be to long though!

I can't imagine any AI out teching me as I'm working 3 gems/1 gold/6-7 flood plain cottages already so I'm hoping to go on a early maceman land grab.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I think the list was mainly based on the leaders actual coded declaration probability. Victoria has a 20% chance of DoW at pleased, although her aggression level is very low.

Actually her aggression is medium. And she does ok militarily sometimes. In Mad Scientist's last game she vassaled both Brennus and Toku.

Something i've noticed about her is that she will always switch to the religions she founds later on. She's one of the few AIs i've ever seen switch over to something like Taoism late game. So that always has the potential to sour relations with her.

 

[Groogaroo]

Actually her aggression is medium. And she does ok militarily sometimes. In Mad Scientist's last game she vassaled both Brennus and Toku.

Okay, maybe I didn't say what I meant quite right, I was looking at her peace weight which is 8 out of 10... 10 being peaceful and 0 being warmonger. Actually I don't even know what peace weight actually means but I assume its how much a leader favours peace over war.

Out of the leaders here the worst has to be Alex, actually the worst in the game according to the stats, Dow 20% chance at pleased and peace weight is 0! Although thats no big surprise!

 

[Pe Ell]

I'm 99% sure I'll give Ragnar a try for this one. Emperor, normal or epic.

 

[Groogaroo]

Suggest that we record backstabs. If an AI declares at pleased, record it as a backstab.

forget about backstabbing I'm having difficulty getting anyone to pleased to be backstabed in the first place.

I played with Louis through to about 500 AD on prince and gave up on the game and not worthy of a proper report, but some comments on the game.

No real spoilers in here, Louis/Prince/500AD/Epic

Spoiler :

Oddly I managed to found 3 religions this game with out actually intending, Poly @ turn 69? Mono @ turn 112? crazy which is handy to some extent as I was going for a culture win.

This map seems very clostrophobic, I struggled getting 4 cities and promptly lost them to a Monty/Alex Dogpile... nice!

I might try going back to an auto save becuase it was going okay I was just bit weak military wise or I might go back to the start. I did really rush the game a bit

 

[Nares]

I'm looking at Vicky myself.

FIN/IMP seems to have some synergy with the espionage economy I want to pursue, though how much remains to be seen.

EE calls for Great Wall. Even without infiltration, which I'm not above, the early Great Spy is needed to make EE more powerful than CE.

Great Wall compounds with IMP for massive Great General generation within your borders.

However, this clashes in some respects with EE. EE relies on cottages (essentially a CE), and FIN plays into that. However, cottages are readily pillaged by the AI, so I don't know that the GW/IMP is worthwhile, given that I don't want the AI pillaging my cottages.

I still need the GW for an EE, and FIN still plays well into EE. IMP is the variable; I find it amusing, though any of a number of other traits would probably suit the EE better.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Okay, maybe I didn't say what I meant quite right, I was looking at her peace weight which is 8 out of 10... 10 being peaceful and 0 being warmonger. Actually I don't even know what peace weight actually means but I assume its how much a leader favours peace over war.

Out of the leaders here the worst has to be Alex, actually the worst in the game according to the stats, Dow 20% chance at pleased and peace weight is 0! Although thats no big surprise!

Yeah, peaceweight is kind of confusing. It's actually related to how they get along with other civs instead of how peaceful or violent they actually are. Usually they align, and low peaceweights will be warmongers and high peaceweights will be peaceful, but there are some civs whose peaceweights don't match up with how aggressive they are. Wang Kon for example has a high peaceweight but his aggression is high, while Pacal has a low peaceweight but his aggression is quite low. The difference in peaceweights is the reason most warmongers will hate Ghandi even at +1 in the beginning.



Ok, putting Ragnar in this game was a mistake, he isn't much of a backstabber. He will declare at pleased, but he can't be bribed to attack anyone he's pleased with. Putting someone like Peter or Genghis in, who can be bribed to attack those they're pleased with might have been better.

 

[siggboy]

My first thought was Louis, and now since madscientist has picked him as well I'm definitely going to play as Louis .

Monarch/Epic for me.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm looking at Vicky myself.

FIN/IMP seems to have some synergy with the espionage economy I want to pursue, though how much remains to be seen.

EE calls for Great Wall. Even without infiltration, which I'm not above, the early Great Spy is needed to make EE more powerful than CE.

Great Wall compounds with IMP for massive Great General generation within your borders.

However, this clashes in some respects with EE. EE relies on cottages (essentially a CE), and FIN plays into that. However, cottages are readily pillaged by the AI, so I don't know that the GW/IMP is worthwhile, given that I don't want the AI pillaging my cottages.

I still need the GW for an EE, and FIN still plays well into EE. IMP is the variable; I find it amusing, though any of a number of other traits would probably suit the EE better.

How are cottages better suited to an EE? That sounds kind of silly to me. Usually you'd just run spies off the courthouses and settle them into a city with espionage multipliers, no? If get the GW and do that you will have OPPRESSIVE EP over most other ai's without touching the slider at all...

If you have doubts on this or how it works, either check out Madscientists mao RPC, his settled GSpy walkthrough, or my PYL 1 game .

CE doesn't favor EE at all on a fundamental level. The EP % buildings come later than other multipliers, while the vast majority of your EP spending reductions comes from parking spies in 1 spot, focusing EP, and spending them. A couple settled great spies, a spy specialist or two, and SY/courthouse/castle starts pushing near 100 EP/turn out of one city.

Anyway, I'm home now, so I'm going to get this rolling....

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

So far this game has been a blast. Tons of action and good times have been had by most. Plenty of wars as you'd expect from this bunch.

I decided to play as Montezuma. Emperor difficulty and marathon speed. This is my first emperor game as a non-financial civ, and one who has no economic traits at all, so we'll see how i do.

Montezuma's start

Spoiler :

Lots of ocean for a nonfinancial civ sucks, but it'll make a good GP farm.

Spoiler :

I pop the wheel from my first hut. Very useful as I'm going to rush someone asap.

I meet Victoria very early, around turn 8, so i know she's nearby. The closest bronze is right by her capital, so I rush my settler over there and just barely beat her to it. I settle on top of it to get it hooked up quicker.


I find horses in my capital's bfc, and get a sod together to chariot and axe rush her.


I destroy a settler she was getting ready to start a new city with, and take her other 2 cities, destroying her. I decide to keep instead of raze because i can already see catherine nearby, and i don't want her settling the land. Plus the cities were in decent spaces and had access to jewels and gold.

By the time I finish the rush Alex and Catherine both have enough on their hands.

Catherine founded Hinduism, Qin founded Judaism, and Louis founded Buddhism. Ragnar, Catherine, and I are hindu, Alex and Qin are jewish, and Louis is the sole buddhist. Things aren't going to go well for him.

Catherine declares on Qin, asks me to join. I want the diplo boost with her so i agree to a fake war. Qin can't get to me because he would have to go through Catherine, so we've been at war now for over a thousand years. he wants one of my cities for peace, and of course that's not happening. Qin bribes Louis to attack me, but since he was bribed he has no SOD to send to me, i go in and pillage a few tiles and get peace.

Alex declares on Louis, and then so does Catherine after she makes peace with Qin. I join in for the diplo, take one of his cities and make peace.


I also moved my palace to Vicky's old capital. It's a perfect cottage spam spot, plus it'll reduce my maintenance from 3 cities i captured from her. My old capital is my GP farm.


My economy was looking really bad for a while and i was falling way behind, but i'm starting to get things sorted out and back to almost tech parity. Got a great scientist and used him to bulb philosophy, and that helped out.
Founded Taoism and made a couple of trades.



So tech situation is now decent. Diplomatic situation is good. Friendly with Catherine and Ragnar. Louis and Qin hate me, Alex is cautious. Qin can't get to me because he can't get through Catherine. Louis is at war with Catherine and Alex and will soon be wiped out or vassalized. Alex could be a problem, though. I'm #1 in land, and #2 in score. Things look good overall. No idea what kind of victory condition i'm going for. A space victory might be interesting with a leader like Montezuma though.

 

[siggboy]

@Nares: I concur with TheMe in that probably a SE is even better suited for espionage than a CE. The spies give a great return per population point, especially under representation (4 beakers + 4 EP). No wonder that the city governor loves to assign them for you... There are also quite a few buildings that unlock spy specialists, so it's not a problem to run plenty of them all over the place.

 

[Sleepless]

Thanks again Bleys. Will try Alex/Emp/Epic.

 

[Nares]

How are cottages better suited to an EE? That sounds kind of silly to me. Usually you'd just run spies off the courthouses and settle them into a city with espionage multipliers, no?

Spies off of courthouses?

What courthouses? What spies?

If you mean the one spy off a courthouse, I really don't think that's generating enough EPs.

The only worthwhile source of early EPs is the slider. Or infiltration of a Great Spy.

Infiltration seems to be taboo (widely considered overpowered to the point of exploitation). So that leaves the slider.

Which is great for a Great Wall protected CE. CE also has flexibility; if I need to switch to research so that I can research that one military tech or one trade bait tech, I'm free to do so.

I'm still fooling around with it, but I definatly think using the slider is the way to go.

 

[schwartz]

Settled GSpy from the Great Wall along with the spy specialist from a courthouse nets enough EPs to set up a couple of tech steals.

Anyway.. Here's my first few turns (4000BC-750BC)
Alexander, Emperor, Normal Speed

Spoiler :

Settled in place:

Teched ag while making a workboat. Sent the scout west. Popped a hut for... nothing... Other huts popped for gold (twice) and a scout

After ag I went for mining -> BW because QSH is very close.

Copper popped nearby, in the tundra to the SE. The city will be poor, but I need to get some room to expand.

In 1120 I declared on QSH with 7 phalanx ready to go, he also built the great wall in his capital, which is a nice addition

So in 1040:

in 875 I burn Guangzhou (Had an axe) and get the partisan event, warriors though, so he has no more metal.

I founded Corinth shortly after this and stopped for now..

Map:

 

[Bandobras Took]

@ Schwartz

Spoiler :

I'm kind of taking a poll; would you agree that Qin has a crappy starting position?