PYL II, Backstabbers!

[madscientist]

Started a Marathon game as Louis on Emperor

1460 BC

Spoiler :

Louis has 4 excellent cities established on a very Cramped board. I should say 2 French, and he has 2 Russian cities, with the Buddhist holy city in Moscow. Cathy is not too pleased but she still has 2 cities separated by Moscow.

Shows your where my thinking is going on the game.

Considering hitting Victoria and her Hindu holy city while I am at it. But I'll think it over a bit

Veyr interesting map and game!!!

 

[schwartz]

Bandobras:

Spoiler :

Yeah the only decent thing about his start were the horses. Otherwise, he's boxed in by Alex in the west, Cathy in the East, Ragnar in the north and the ocean south. No room to expand except by lightning fast chariot rush. I'm really glad I didn't choose him

 

[siggboy]

The only worthwhile source of early EPs is the slider. Or infiltration of a Great Spy.

I'm still fooling around with it, but I definatly think using the slider is the way to go.

Read the Mao roleplaying challenge. Mad stole 23 techs without ever touching the slider... (and I think the Great Spies were all settled, so no infiltrations either).

 

[madscientist]

Read the Mao roleplaying challenge. Mad stole 23 techs without ever touching the slider... (and I think the Great Spies were all settled, so no infiltrations either).

First GSpy was settled

Second GSpy was used for scottland yard

Third, 4th, 5th were settled.

5th and 6th were used for intercontinental infiltration missions.

7th and I think 8th were burned for Golden Ages to rush the SpaceShip.

Remember I could have stolen Mass Media except for Mao's TeleVision Phobia.

Also note, Surymanan's land had several Scotland Yards in them.

Adjusting the ep slider only forces you to play from a weak position since the AI will always be ahead in tech.

 

[Nares]

Adjusting the ep slider only forces you to play from a weak position since the AI will always be ahead in tech.

The very premise of an EE suggests a "weak" position.

If they're not ahead in tech, you're not stealing anything.

If they're not ahead in tech, you're probably on too low a difficulty level. But that's not the issue at hand.

As I noted, adjusting the slider gives me the freedom to apply commerce towards espionage, research or revenues. I'm not stuck stockpiling EPs when I don't need them, and I'm not entirely incapable of research should I decide it's worthwhile to self-research a particular tech.

Knowing I'm going to rely on the slider leaves me less restricted in my choices of early tech paths. The only "need" I have is to build the Great Wall. Failing that, I'm in position for a classic CE.

 

[Bandobras Took]

The very premise of an EE suggests a "weak" position.

Then it's probably inferior to settling Great Spies to steal techs.

If they're not ahead in tech, you're not stealing anything.

Unless the AI researches different techs along different paths than you do.

As I noted, adjusting the slider gives me the freedom to apply commerce towards espionage, research or revenues. I'm not stuck stockpiling EPs when I don't need them, and I'm not entirely incapable of research should I decide it's worthwhile to self-research a particular tech.

And settling Great Spies gives you the freedom to adjust the Slider towards research and revenues without having to divert any towards espionage.

Knowing I'm going to rely on the slider leaves me less restricted in my choices of early tech paths. The only "need" I have is to build the Great Wall. Failing that, I'm in position for a classic CE.

Which is exactly the same situtation settling Great Spies will put you in.

 

[patagonia]

Qin, Emperor/Normal - part 2, 300AD - 680AD (23 turns)

Spoiler :

300AD - The plan from here is to continue the war against Greece. With the military edge the CKN are giving, it'd be a crime not to.

400AD - Ragnar declares. Not a backstab since he was only cautious. Alex probably bribed him since he's quite backward after spamming cities into the jungle belt.

425AD - Second GG born - I'll use him to make a medic 3 chariot.

450AD - Athens captured. Alex had 9 units stuffed in there, but the walled city fell for the loss of 2CKN. Athens has the GW which will mean a lot more GG to come.

580AD - Sparta captured.

640AD - His SoD destroyed, Ragnar agrees to peace, offering Monotheism for his insolence.

680AD - Thebes captured and my 3rd GG born - he'll also be settled in Beijing.

Greek acquisitions:

A tempting offer:

How to fall behind in tech:

I'll probably take Alex up on his offer, but maybe trade machinery to Monty for currency first and see if I can get Construction from him or force him into tribalism to sour relations with Cathy. My main worry is that she's got feudalism now and may take Alex as a vassal, which would be a serious pain. If I can revolt to Hinduism and get her up to pleased before re-declaring in 10 turns, I think she'll stay out of it, leaving me free to eliminate the Greek and turn my attention to Ragnar. Cathy may have to wait until I can engineer a rifle/redcoat dogpile on her with Vicky.

 

[patagonia]

@ Schwartz:

Spoiler :

Interesting how your game and mine are mirroring each other, you taking out China with a UU-rush and me doing the same to Greece, with the target AI in each game building the Great Wall.

 

[Nares]

Then it's probably inferior to settling Great Spies to steal techs.

How so?

All I'm hearing here is that Mad did it one way, so it should be done that way.

Let's say infiltration is out (I hope that's not what you mean when you say "settle").

I can settle the Great Spy, burn it on a Golden Age, or build a Scotland Yard (branch).

SY is a souped up Academy. Combined with already fairly massive discounts (50% stationary; EP ratio advantage; possibly religion), and I think you're getting enough beakers per point of commerce over traditional research that the spy cost is offset (unless you have really bad luck with spies).

Or I can settle the Great Spy, sit on a small number of beakers and an easily matched number of EPs, and do what, exactly? Beeline Engineering? Play a traditional CE until I can build a jail?

Espionage has one major block; the EP ratio. If I can't apply significantly more EPs to my opponent than they can to me, I lose out on a discount. At higher levels of play, it's very possible that the AI will naturally outproduce my EP generation, even with a settled Great Spy, while still out-teching me and out-REXing me.

This is one of the reasons early infiltration is frowned upon. That massive amount of EPs provides so significant a discount due to the EP ratio that it borders gamebreaking.

Maybe passive EP generation can be made to work. I definatly think you can get more from moving the slider as needed than you can from passive generation pre-Modern era.

 

[Bandobras Took]

How so?

For the simple and sufficient reason that the AI will not always be choosing the same techs as you. Not only can you do whatever teching you choose to do, you can steal the techs the AI is picking up with its own tech rate. This, then, is adding to a position of strength, while lowering your own research to pick up the AI's research is always going to be playing from behind. I don't necessarily object to that on principle, but I'd only go for commerce slider if I'm planning on using every single espionage mission in the book constantly, and then I'd be using Great Spies for SY in every city that deserved it. As far as tech stealing goes, settling Great Spies as SY-enhanced specialists and directing research towards a likely target is overall the best and most flexible option in my experience.

 

[schwartz]

Patagonia:

Spoiler :

I just read through your 300AD round, it is very interesting that we have a mirror game like that. Your position is much stronger though. I think that emperor is still a bit above my skill, even though I win 90% on monarch at least.

 

[Nares]

As far as tech stealing goes, settling Great Spies as SY-enhanced specialists and directing research towards a likely target is overall the best and most flexible option in my experience.

If anything you have less flexibility.

Your passive EP generation is so meager that you need to choose your target centuries before you steal anything.

You seem to think only your strategy offers the option to research. Moving the commerce slider one way does not prevent me from moving it back another.

Based on your suggestions, I find I'm in the stronger position by actively guiding both espionage and research. I am not bound to spying on a single AI; I can divert EPs across the board and check all AIs research fairly quickly. This gives me freedom to research the most optimal tech amongst all AIs; not the most optimal tech that my single target is not researching.

 

[Bandobras Took]

In my experience, it's never been that meager, but this starting to sound like an SE vs CE debate, which we should probably avoid. For Tech Stealing, I've found settled Great Spies to be the best road. For overall Espionage use, the Commerce slider will be the way to go.

 

[madscientist]

May I suggest bringing the Espionage debate into another threat. Alot of posters are playing the PYL, and it's starting to clutter. I'll be happy to join the debate!

 

[Bandobras Took]

Culture Win, Qin Shi Huang, Normal Speed, Monarch 1928 AD

Spoiler :

After a couple of false starts, this one worked. I didn't use foreknowledge as such because Qin's start is so bad and the hut pops for a map when you settle in place anyway. To make sure, I didn't actually have any cities that could work the nearby Iron. I only had three cities for the bulk of the game until Novgorod flipped to my side, which was a relief, as I didn't have many high production cities as such.

Nabbed the Pyramids and went with Representation because Qin's starting area is so lousy I had to go with a super-science capital; chopping netted me a few other wonders. Established a wonder-building spot at the cow/stone/fish area to the South of Catherine; that one snagged me the Sistine Chapel, which was rather key. A third city that snagged the fish got the Hermitage and settled the Great Artists I happened to generate (until near the end, when I started Culture Bombing).

Catherine founded Buddhism and spread it to me; I happily converted, as did Ragnar. I kissed up to Catherine the whole game so she wouldn't attack me. I left Alexander room to expand near Rangar; they were at odds the whole game. Victoria did me a huge favor by founding Judaism and being the only Civ to adopt it. During the entire game, I was only attacked once, by Ragnar, and he vassalized to Alexander before he had worn down the defenses of Beijing.

I didn't declare war the whole game.
I didn't lose a troop the whole game except my early exploration units.
I didn't have to kill a troop the whole game.

Catherine offered me a defensive pact about halfway through, and I gladly accepted.

My tech rate started to lag around midgame, but I was able to trade with Ragnar and Montezuma, who had also started to lag, into something resembling parity.

Louis got two cities Legendary, but his third was so backward I wasn't worried. Fun game, but I wish Qin had a better starting position.

 

[Bandobras Took]

And hopefully I do these screenshots correctly:

Heh. Looks like they have an hourly usage quota. Pictures may or may not work.

Spoiler :

My cities (all 4 of them) at the end of the game:

Oddly enough, Louis was beating me in overall culture:

The Power Graph won't win me any awards:

Running Pacifism for most of the game when you've only got three cities really doesn't allow you a lot of leeway in troop-building activities.

Oddly enough, my Wonder-spam city is the least culturally advanced of the three:

And Abraham Lincoln rating for not fighting -- in fact, I had a Settler waiting around most of the game and never got a chance to use him.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Backstabby Cathy! Emperor/Epic:

4000 BC: Our Start for the hottest leader in this particular map:

Spoiler :

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk134/themelnteam/cathystart.jpg

The scout revealed some useful things for me here. D'oh, that gold is a little far off. I wound up settling 1S to take advantage of the plains hill hammers early...we have the sexy rexy that's actually sexy! Might as well get early hammers. 1S also gave me a decent combo of food and production, though I missed out on the gold (but no worries, that can be claimed later ). Most of you have read other summaries of mine, so you all know how this is probably going to go...who's the first victim in the back stab game?!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Cathy: 1275 BC Emperor Epic

Spoiler :

Only a few things to say here:

1. Oh god. Vicky has a death wish, and some good land too. Not to mention a holy city. I think I'll help her out with with that death wish via some axes and such.
2. This is definitely some version of pangaea or fractal draw. Everyone's up in my grill already . Not to mention I had a hard time walling anybody off with all that land everywhere. Fortunately Vicky is making it very diplomatically simple to expand with something other than settlers...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Cathy: Emperor Epic 10 AD

Spoiler :

Well, 7 BPT in the AD's isn't exactly ideal. On a positive note though, look at her land!!!! Whoa! Gems, gold with food, and a flood plain capitol (with enough hammers to make what it needs!). That's vicky's last city up there, and we'll be liberating it shortly...

This is a warring game. I might have overexpanded a wee bit...seeing as I'm pulling in a solid negative 8 gold at 0% science. I'm going to pretend I'm shaka again, since he isn't in this game. I like pretending I'm shaka, and massing units like crazy. At the moment though it's time to whip out whatever libraries aren't up and run some scientists to get the needed techs of CoL (which is likely tradable...see sis's sour grapes mentality thread) and currency (+1 trade routes instantly is a pretty big deal when you have tons of cities early like this).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Cathy: Emperor Epic 565 AD

Spoiler :

Well, it's better than 7 BPT. It's pretty solid if I move the slider up, which isn't possible just yet . Soon though, cmon currency!

D'oh. Again. Russia appears to have a...bright...future. This is a textbook case of early war expansion screwing someone up a bit. I've learned at emperor though, that if I want to war early I have to be ready to deal with this type of consequence. I have good land, so I'm not as worried as I'd have been about 5 games ago at this difficulty. A few bulbs, and getting the slider up should let me compete at least somewhat, which is all I need with this many cities.