PYL II, Backstabbers!

They were actually fairly minimal. I think the real key was that one of the Civs adopted a religion nobody else had while I went with the majority religion and sucked up big-time the strongest power. My power graph was actually dead last for the bulk of the game, but there always seemed to be another target for any Civ that was feeling aggressive because of the aforementioned solitary religionist. I built as many garrison units as I could, but it wasn't much because I was running pacifism.
 
OK, my first PYL. Thanks for setting up Bleys! I haven't seen anyone posting for Rag, so I chose him.

Spoiler :

The start:
Raggystart.jpg


I had already moved the scout to see if any fish on the coast and there are clams, so I decide to settle where my scout is now and lose 1 turn.

Capital:
raggycap3960.jpg


Lots of food, so I'll whip here early and run specialist and cotts later.

Popped Myst from hut on turn 2:
raggy_techpop.jpg


Knowing that only Monty starts with myst, I gambled on Buddhism, while building a Workboat.

Learned Buddhism one turn before someone (monty) founded Hinduism:
Ragfoundsbudd.jpg


Start to meet some weirdos:
ragmeetscathy.jpg

Cathy already playing hard to get.

RagmeetsQin.jpg

Qin about to punch me in the face.

RagmeetsAlex.jpg

Alex's but chin getting into my personal space.

RagmeetsLou.jpg

and Louis.

The map at 2320 bc shortly after BW discovered:
Ragworld2320.jpg

No copper and horses far away so I'm teching Archery for defense. I plan to whip out a second worker after revolting to slavery. I'm a little slow to settle (blame it on early religion) so I have to get a settler to horse city pronto, since Qin is right there. I'd also like to claim ivory but either alex or Qin might beat me there. There's a nice early game production center near pigs so I'll get that up after ivory city.

Not much in the way of happy resources, so I'll need HR soon. Looks like I'll have to war with Qin when I find Iron.

Next phase:
settlers (chop/whip) to block claim ivory, horses.
tech: archery, wheel pottery (spam cottages in cap), .... then prob IW, Writing (open borders and maybe get some missionaries out (never taken this approach before)) to get some allies.

Marble for a shot at the GLib.

Any comments? Helpful Dotmaps?
 
Hrm, could've sworn I posted that I was doing Rags... not that that's a problem!

Ragnar
Prince
4000BC - 170BC

Spoiler :

4000BC – 170BC
Techs researched:
Mining
Bronze Working
Animal Husbandry
Agriculture
Writing
Mysticism
The Wheel
Iron Working
Masonry
Polytheism
Monotheism
Sailing
Pottery
Traded for: Priesthood
Currently researching: Metal Casting (Colossus here I come!)

Spoiler :

After debating with myself for a bit, I settled in place. Plenty of forest to chop, 2 food resources, and underneath forested grassland to cottage. Turns out moving to the coast might have been a good idea, but no way I could have seen that without wandering aimlessly with my settler.

Researched to Bronze working right away, and found no Bronze nearby :( . Oh well, I chopped out some settlers and such and REXed, having dismissed a warrior rush due to the distance my neighbors Alex and Qin were away. Then I went to Writing and established open borders with just about everyone.

Buddhism spread to me from Cathy, who was far and away the leader in score at this point, so I converted, entering the Buddhist bloc of Cathy, Vicky, and me. A Jewish bloc also developed of Qin, Alex, and Louis, though the Buddhist bloc was more powerful. Monty founded Hinduism and is all by himself.

Once I researched Iron Working, I found 3 Iron resources in my territory! Wow. Turns out I don’t even have a monopoly, as both Qin and Alex have Iron.

So, what’s my plan? I’ll tech up to Beserkers and blitzkrieg Alex. Take all of his territory, then turtle up and play defensive while I head towards space fueled by my Financial coast and cottage plots. I'm 1 turn away from the Great Lighthouse, and plan on building Colussus once Metal Casting finishes. Let’s see how it works out…

Here are screenies of my empire as of 170 BC

PyL170BC-Heartland.jpg


PyL170BC-Borders.jpg
 
AluminumKnight-I'm interested to see what you've done. I'll check yours out after I play my next round.
 
Wow, this game is a BLAST! Non-stop warring SOMEWHERE. I dont think I have seen a turn where there wasnt at least 1 war going on SOMEWHERE!

Update: Cathy, Monarch-Light, Epic, 400 BC - 1000 AD:
Spoiler :
Well, Vicky managed to hang on to 2 cities, but they arent connected. I plan to finish her off soon, Cossacks are coming!

Louis made the mistake of DoWing on me. What a maroon. I pummelled him into Vassalization, and might take out his last city if I feel like it, but for now, hes a Vassal.

Most of the stronger AIs, like Alex and Ragnar, have Feud, so I have been trying to be friendly with them, and I own the AP, which is nice. Got the AP vote to declare war on Louis, LOL, and voted yes, and every Civ DOWed on him. I took Paris and he capitulated to me, though.

Monty is my biggest concern. Qin and Alex are in a war, I refused to join either side when asked, taking a diplo hit, but my border cities on that side are decent, with an LB, Pike, Mace and HA in most border cities, or more. Cost me a bit of cash, but I upgraded many of my garrisons JUST to discourage a backstab. I still have a sizable army in Louis captured cities, which are now my only border with Monty, but he is really the worst nutjob in the game. I gave him Open Borders so he could help Alex with Qin, so we will see if he DoWs on me.

Another concern is Alex vassalizing Qin, then coming for me with a backstab. Hes already being snotty, canceled Corn for my Ivory trade, wants Horses, Gems and Pigs JUST for Corn. Yeah, right, in your dreams. I may just have to stick the knife in him. Monty first though, he has a TON of land and will be difficult to dislodge, but he is falling well behind in techs as usual. If you can hold him off til you get stronger military techs than him, he falls apart.

Not taking screenshots, except this one of the Culture from a few turns back. I have a nice set of cities now, still able to run 40-50% slider and Rep with Scientists all over. Just build the HG, and MoM, and now headed for Lib, Nationalism and Taj for my 15 turn Golden Age. That should put the lid on these jarbrains, I will pump out Rifles and Cossacks like mad long before these nubs get Gunpowder, I think.

Civ4ScreenShot0009-1.jpg
 
Vicky 550AD-1250AD

Backstabbed!

Spoiler :
I start the round and force a GSci in York and bulb Education to really up the tech pace. The 2nd round I play someone builds the Great Library and Louis vassals to Cathy. :(

I decide since I have such a nice tech lead I'll go for Democracy of Liberalism and I start laying cottages down to prepare for a full out CE.

educationbulb0000vc0.jpg


Louis does build the AP for us Buddhists, where I take my place on the throne.

civ4screenshot0000pr1.jpg


Louis burns an artist on a Culture bomb to piss me off more.

culturebomb0000sy7.jpg


Cathy asks me to join the Ragnar war again, I agree and the next turn...

backstab0000go5.jpg


That little witch!

I lose about 9 workers on the backstab round and the fight is on with me starting with 4 unhappy faces for war weariness right of the bat from old wars. I figure I'll stop this war quickly via AP votes but not until I get my copper tile back! Glad I didn't raze it, thanks for the wonders!

whyilostthecopper0000hx6.jpg


Another wonder from Louis is in quick strike range and I take another city.

glh0000pq5.jpg


AP vote comes up and I relax as I declare from my AP seat that the war with me is to end.

fail0000ld0.jpg


Drats, I do get democracy at least and I hope I can transition to a CE while fighting a huge war still. As nice as this is it was clearly the wrong choice as I should have head for rifles instead, but I'll try and make the most of it.

civ4screenshot0002aj6.jpg


I do a big civic switch to try and get use of early democracy.

civicswitch0000qn5.jpg


And thats about where I stopped, relations and tech situation.

civ4screenshot0004xx0.jpg


civ4screenshot0005ou3.jpg


I have the tech lead but have no friends and nobody to trade with anymore, I'm still hoping to tech to space (conquering everyone in a backstabing game would be the easy way out!) but it looks like I'll be fighting the whole way.
 
AluminumKnight-I'm interested to see what you've done. I'll check yours out after I play my next round.

Yeah I'll add some screenshots in a minute. You placed your capital much better than mine, I can see that already. I sent the scout the other way and didn't see the coast, resulting in a settling in place. It's a good spot, but coastal would have been better.
 
@ Gocho:

Spoiler :


I'm not going to lie, I was kind of happy when nobody picked Cathy. I said I'd play as a civ that nobody else picked when the thread started. Cathy is a very, very strong AI in most games, and playing as her removed the nasty backstab potential, but also a top AI. I think the combination of her REX power and tendency to war makes her a powerful leader to the AI, as since the AI does not manage its tiles well its best bet is to get more and more of them instead...
 
I took Cathy as well, since my "unofficial poll" had 3 Alexs, 3 Montys, 2 Vickys, 2 Louis, and 2 Ragnars, at least. She only had 1, and since I am a big fan of Cathy myself (was a bigger fan in Vanilla, but honestly, IMP helped me a TON this game).

Been a blast too. I saw Alex DoW on Qin at pleased, heh, and I got to backstab Vicky myself. London is my Globe city now, drafting like mad. Hoping to get an AP win any turn, but could easily romp all the AIs I think. I am about to culture flip the one city of Vicky that Rags took, it still has about 30 of his units in it, LOL.
 
Montezuma, Prince, domination in 1870s, score 69k. Great game and concept. I'm looking forward to the next one for sure.

Spoiler :
Sorry did not keep any screenshots. Overall, this was a most enjoyable game and forced me to war almost exclusively throughout the entire game. This was my first ever domination win at Civ4, so am I really happy with outcome.

Overall details:
1) Met Victoria almost immediately. Researched AH early for cows and found horses near capital. Prepped for chariot war, and conquered 3 cities. Moved capital to London in anticipation of Civil Service. Probably the wisest move I made all game. Tenoch.... became my GP farm.
2) Met Cathy and Louis very quickly as well. I decided that I had to take them out quickly as the Creative trait was going to cause me issues.
3) Attacked Louis first, immediately took 3 cities. My SoD got beat up pretty bad. Cathy was a close 2nd in score at this point, and my spies were showing some imminent attack on her part, so I vassalized Louis and began prepping for Cathy -- more Seige please... :goodjob:
4) Took 5 of Cathy's major cities, including St. Petersburg and Moscow. Again, was very concerned as Alex was close with Chinese and had significant stack of units ready to attack clearly. I vassalized her as well.
5) At this point, my economy was in shambles. So I traded resources for cash to keep me affloat while I built up the cottages in English cities, got Courthouses up and running. My vassals didn't help either as their constant culture pressure kept infecting my conquests.
6) Finally researched Grenadiers, Cavalry and Cannons, and prepared to take out Qin. I decided that leaving Alex and Ragnar alone was just too dangerous, so I bribed Alex into backstabbing Rags and then immediately attacked Qin. Took 3 more cities, but Alex also declared war and took both Shanghai and Beijing.
7) Given Alex's subtle move, I turned my production advantage to Ragnar instead as he had declared war once Qin was attacked. I conquered North at 1st and then cut a swath westward to cut off Alex from securing Rags territory. Much to my surprise Rags vassalizes to Alex. I'm now at 68% pop and 60% land. Uggh!
8) Next I built stacks on the Eastern front against Alex and kept my previous stack near Ragnar as a deterent. I know I have to take cities from Alex in order to win at this point as there is many more tiles in and around his majors, and rest of my Viking conquests are too near Rags capital. After all my forces are ready, I attack. Alex counters to the south and I bring up a counter stack from Moscow.
9) 3 cities quickly fall. Alex offers capitulation. Being lazy I take it. Game over.

Things I learned:
1) Better diplomacy. These guys were easy to manipulate as backstabbers, but none the less I tried out some things I wouldn't have done in the past.
2) Forests are for rushing, not wonders. :goodjob:
3) Economic recovery is very difficult without CoL and CS. I probably should have taken Currency earlier, but I was really focused on military techs.
4) I probably should have built more stacks earlier on, instead of relying on one big one. Just very tough to produce all those hammers early.
5) Creative civs are a pain.
6) Communism and Fascism are huge for late warring. I've always been a space race person, so I never really seen this in action.
7) More and more workers...

If anyone has any pointers -- though I know it is difficult with no screenshots -- I would love to hear them.
 
Sorry did not keep any screenshots.
ARGH! Next one, remind me to request at LEAST a single set of screenshots of your late-game Empire, maybe a couple looks at it, so we can see how different the maps end up with the Human player at different starting locations. Thats the coolest part of this concept IMHO, seeing those "Winning turn" maps, and how different it looks for Monty compared to Alex for example (since those 2 civs were the farthest apart).

No worries mate, I know how it goes, especially when your into a game, screenshots become after-thoughts, LOL. I actually re-started a couple turns in the current Lonely Hearts game, JUST so I could take a screenie of an event because I clicked it off to fast, heh. I am the WORST when it comes to posting a long essay of a report without a screenshot.

Glad you enjoyed it, I am definitely planning another. I think I have the WB thing down, and I also found a hany utility that will help a LOT, a "WB File Cleaner" that I can use to save some time. Has a couple features that will help a bunch, like "Remove all units" for starters. Units get removed, but the starting location tiles are pre-set, so that whichever difficulty you choose, the Scenario automatically assigns the proper number of units. Checked that on Diety, works as it should.
 
Spoiler :
I didn't last long after the last report; Cathy was outteching me ridiculously and when Monty DoWed me I gave up the ghost. Cathy is such a difficult neighbor and I've never really figured out how to deal with her.
 
Spoiler :
I didn't last long after the last report; Cathy was outteching me ridiculously and when Monty DoWed me I gave up the ghost. Cathy is such a difficult neighbor and I've never really figured out how to deal with her.
Spoiler :

I'd waste her ASAP if she's a neighbor. I have more trouble when she's far away, as she's a top candidate for runaway AI. Of course, in this game my solution was to play as her, so her being a threat was only a positive for me :).

Other than faster border pops, Cathy has nothing that protects her from rushes/early war etc in particular. Coupling this with the level of danger she presents, I target her pretty heavily if she has any decent land, which is usually.
 
@ Solon

Spoiler :
Buddying up to Cathy was one thing that kept me alive in this game!
 
Of course, in this game my solution was to play as her
I think that's why some people chose Monty.

I don't know that taking out Cathy in this game can be done early enough to stop her from at least becoming a major headache.
 
That does depend a lot on who one picked :p. I can think of 2 or maybe even 3 leaders who could be in her face ASAP no problem.

Of course, all of these leaders are potentially very annoying. That's the type of game it was intended to be!
 
@ Solon

Spoiler :
Buddying up to Cathy was one thing that kept me alive in this game!

Spoiler :
I've buddied up to Cathy in my game (Ragnar played to 1170AD). Unfortunately, she's starting to look like a runaway AI, and without betraying her and Vicky, which would effectively set the whole world against me, I don't know how to stop her. I'm hoping I can outtech, leveraging financial, but we'll see...
 
@ AluminumKnight

Spoiler :
That was one advantage of heading for a cultural victory -- I didn't have to care that she was seven techs ahead of me.
 
@TheMeInTeam (and others who commented re: Cathy):

Spoiler :
I'd waste her ASAP if she's a neighbor. I have more trouble when she's far away, as she's a top candidate for runaway AI. Of course, in this game my solution was to play as her, so her being a threat was only a positive for me :).

Other than faster border pops, Cathy has nothing that protects her from rushes/early war etc in particular. Coupling this with the level of danger she presents, I target her pretty heavily if she has any decent land, which is usually.

The problem I ran into is that my immediate neighbor was not Cathy, but Qin. I didn't feel like I could afford another early war after taking Qin out; I needed a period of consolidation, but I was just too far behind Cathy. The other annoying thing about her REX tendencies is that whenever you raze one of Qin's cities, there she is ready to grab up any tiles you leave her. I guess keeping her contained in a territorial sense until you can take her on militarily is an important part of the strategy.

 
I actually played a few turns with Louis when I first made the map, and then the Louis Immortal thing popped up and I stopped, and didnt go back to it, I took Cathy instead because she only had 1 player.

But I do remember how I dealt with her as Louis, box her in so she cant expand. I got the spots where I ultimately put my first 3 cities with Cathy (they were really the only spots for either Civ to expand into so there was no pre-knowledge bias. If anything, I think Louis starting location was superior to Cathies), and she had Qin on her west. I didnt even need to take her out, she had no land to IMP into and as a result, she was very slow. Louis is also CRE, and thats really the single best way to deal with a CRE REXer, out CRE REX them. I only played to 3 cities with Louis though, not even to 1000 BC IIIRC.

BTW guys, no need for spoilers anymore, game has been open over a week, we can openly discuss some of the strategies of each leaders position. If you have a long report, then yes, keep spoilers for neatness and such, but single paragraph responses are fine in the open. Anyone coming to try this game now is not likely to read the thread this deep, heh, so no worries.
 
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