PYL II, Backstabbers!

[Nares]

Victoria
Emperor/Epic
2375BC-800BC

Spoiler :

Techs researched: Writing (turn 73), Hunting (turn 77), Archery (turn 82), Animal Husbandry (turn 93), Alphabet (turn 128)

Wonders built: The Great Wall (turn 87)

Founded Nottingham on the plains silk.

Spoiler :

I met Ragnar shortly into the set, rounding out the list of faces. He's also at a distance, so I'll leave his mugshot out.

I finish research on Writing in 2175BC. My next three techs are Hunting, Archery and Animal Husbandry.

Monty comes to me the turn after I discover Writing and asks for open borders. I politely agree.

Ragnar and Qin come asking for the same shortly after, and I grant them passage as well. Alex also gets the nod when he finally asks many turns later.

But not everyone can enter my borders.

Sorry Louis, you're staying out. Catherine was also denied. I don't want to disappoint, and I'm just not ready for commitment, you see.

I complete the Great Wall in 1825BC, a scant few turns after the lone barbarian warrior to enter my territory pillaged the road connecting York to London before suiciding on York's warrior defender.

I finish Animal Husbandry in 1675BC. Notice where the horses are? Useless. And I think I see a barbarian city up there. I set research to Alphabet, the final tech of this round.

I found Nottingham in 1575BC, on the plains silk. I think it was a good move. Louis is already nearby, but I think I'll be able to hold the two remaining silk tiles. The city itself generates three commerce, and I think it's self-supporting, generating three commerce and costing three gold in maintenance.

As I pointed out earlier, a barbarian city had sprung up north of York. Louis, as I'll point out later, was making an attempt at it, so I sent a pair of axes to beat him to it. The first made it there the turn before Louis' own axe did, and Louis did me the favor of taking out one of the warrior defenders. Thanks buddy.

(note: warrior defenders? I picked up the saves labeled M, this would be the appropriate choice for an emperor game, correct?)

I chose to burn the city, but the placement of my gold city is determined. I think I'll put it 2S of the gold, which leaves the ruins in its BFC for the ruin event.

Hinduism was spreading through the land like a disease. Cathy and Louis had both adopted it, followed by Qin.

Finally, in 1175BC, I got the good news.

Even better news were the subsequent conversions of Alex and Monty to the faith.

I went with early Writing not for the open borders benefits, but for the early library in York. As I stated earlier, I was determined to keep that copper, and I think I stand I pretty good chance. Notice here Louis' lonely axe, denied victory.

I put together a small montage of the culture battle for the copper. I think I'm doing alright, but now that I have a religion I intend to research Meditation and Priesthood very soon, which will also give me access to my next targetted tech, Code of Laws.

And finally, I discover Alphabet in 800BC. A bit slow, I guess, but York and Nottingham are slow developing cities.

York is currently pumping out units, and Nottingham has just completed its library. I had timed a chop to come in just as the city was founded, and had completed its monument almost instantly.

As I said, research is set to Meditation, Priesthood and Code of Laws. I intend to trade Alphabet for Iron Working, which is desperately needed for York. And I'm looking to settle my next two cities soon.

 

[Nares]

Victoria
Emperor/Epic
800BC-85AD

Spoiler :

Techs researched: Code of Laws (turn 150), Currency (turn 164)

Founded Hastings on the plains hill 1SE of the iron NE of London.

Founded Canterbury 2S of the gold NW of London.

Spoiler :

I'm not sure how to interpret the beginning of this turnset. I wanted to settle at least two more cities, build up some more military, and prepare to swap to espionage.

Monty came by asking for a big favor one turn after discovering it.

I said yes. No sense angering him. Not that he needs to be angry. His name is Monty, not Banner.

In response, I'm forced to make some tech trades.

And a little while later...

Notice I trade Code of Laws to Monty. I had been gifting him techs for awhile now. Agriculture, Polytheism, Meditation, and Priesthood. I was hoping he'd go after Louis first. We seemed like such good buddies.

I denied Raggles Poly when he came begging. I figured with him being the only Buddhist buddy on the block, I was safe to deny him. Actually, I thought I was safe overall.

I tell you, it's a funny feeling, feeling safe. A WHEOOH kind of feeling.

Leading the pack, that bastard. He even manages to look ashamed. Oh well, I ain't never scared.

And there's no reason to be scared here. Monty was a whimp. He posted an axe/spear duo in a hilltop forest for a number of turns, but otherwise barely made a noise.

Of course, one good backstabbing deserves a dogpile, eh? Ladies first as the queen <censor> steps up.

And she brought a date. How cute.

On the next turn I finish Currency, and win some more battles.

This is too easy.

Cathy's first stack comes up quick. I barely have time to get some more defense in place, after having sent some units towards Hastings to defend against Monty.

Speaking of Monty, I figure he had learned his lesson and just didn't know it was time for him to go home, so I took his lunch money and sent him off.

With Monty subdued, I was left with Cathy and what I assumed was a phantom Raggles. I don't have a screenshot of his "stack," but lets just say it wasn't pleasing anyone. He managed to send an axe and a chariot out, both of which suicided on York.

He quickly signed peace for the nominal fee of 3gpt. He wasn't willing to part with all of his gold and the gpt, and I just settled on the gpt.

Cathy, meanwhile, turned out to be much more the man.

Of course, just because she was acting like a man didn't mean she could back up the bark with some bite.

Another stray chariot or two and I signed peace for 120 gold.

I later sold Raggles Monotheism for the 100 gold I didn't take from him in signing peace.

I have to thank Louis, who came through with an opportune trade, and the only trade I got from Currency.

I think it may have made the difference.

I had left the catapult for awhile after whipping the city, but decided at the last second I wanted a spear. I couldn't whip the spear in time, so I took the catapult, and I think the splash damage helped the overall fight.

I picked up two Great Generals, and I am 50% towards a third. I probably should have let the fight drag on. Imperialistic + Great Wall = GG+++.

I also popped my first Great Spy. At the time, York was the better choice of city. It was one commerce ahead of London, though three espionage behind total (capital has +4 base). I went with York, even after the war with Catherine broke out.

I still haven't touched the slider, but once I do, it is the better choice. It has a smaller pop, bringing in more commerce. This means more room to grow. London has more hammers, which I want to use. Besides, I'll hopefully have a second Great Spy before long, though I still need to get the courthouse up in London.

I also need to get out some more settlers.

Pigs, iron, fur looks good. There's also fish, copper. And I want to grab the horses somehow, possibly with a Moai city.

 

[Gocho]

@Nares

Spoiler :

LOL @ the culture battle for the copper tile, I realized right after founding the same city that having it in my 2nd ring vs creative Cathy was going to be trouble and rushed to settle the fish/copper (future Moi) city so I don't get blocked out.

Hopefully I'll have time to catch up with your reports later today.

 

[Bandobras Took]

After a bout of insomnia the other day, I decided to fool around with Montezuma on Monarch Normal.

Spoiler :

Wiped out Victoria with nothing but Woodsmen II Jaguars (several of which got CR promotions during the war and one of which became a Medic III/Woodsman III healing guru). My economy isn't really even tanking after taking her cities because of the nearby Gold tile. In all, a fun little romp, but I don't know if I'll finish or not. I'm getting the sacrifical altars on line (already built a couple in my earliest cities) and wondering when to convert to the world religion and piss off Louis thereby. Tech path was pretty much like the others playing Montezuma -- Fishing, Mining, BW, IW, techs for Pottery, techs for Code of Laws.

 

[Gocho]

Vicky 1000BC-550AD

Spoiler :

Not really a backstab but Rags is the first to declare on me.

His stack o doom!

I bribe Monty into war

And he kindly empties his northern lands of units for me leading to a huge rout and a fairly easy conquering spree.

Rag declares again!

And sends another tiny stack for me to wipe out, notice I finally lost the culture war for that copper with Russia.

Rag gave me 4 backfill techs for his troubles from both wars, do those count towards WFYABTA? Hope not as I'll be doing a ton of back trading soon.

The world post Monty! His lands were rather poor in comparison poor Monty, workers on route to fix it up, might save all those forests for NP or go wonder hunting in his old capitol and chop away.

My more developed lands. I really failed at exploring, going to have to pay for a map I guess.

I have a nice military tech lead as the only one with Civil Service and Engineering. Sadly war weariness is very high so I'm in for some peaceful rounds hopefully next time I play. Thank you flood plains and gems! Done with paper shortly and I'm hoping to force a scientist for an Education bulb to really pull away from the pack.

 

[Nares]

@Gocho

Spoiler :

LOL @ the culture battle for the copper tile, I realized right after founding the same city that having it in my 2nd ring vs creative Cathy was going to be trouble and rushed to settle the fish/copper (future Moi) city so I don't get blocked out.

I'm getting dogpiled now, and I'm starting to think settling on the copper would have been a better idea.

That, or not placing myself quite as aggressively.

I have a nice military tech lead as the only one with Civil Service and Engineering.

Yeah, you look to be in a nice position. Your cities are nice and big, which I take it you've been on top of.

I wouldn't worry about WFYABTA. Backfilling techs through self-research enjoys a nice discount. I also think it's entirely possible to shift commerce to espionage, and steal your way through an era. The cheaper commerce cost for espionage should offset the fact that you have no espionage modifiers.

 

[Bleys]

ARGH! I forgot to play this! LOL, my own series and I dont even contribute! Man, I am so ADHD its not even funny, no wonder I never finish games, I love starting them, and expanding, but hate grinding.

OK off to play Cathy, Monarch-Light, Epic. Been preoccupied with another project. You guys should check out the new series that Diamondeye, rolo, OTAK, futurehermit and myself are involved in, its a "Concurrent Succession Game", where we will be using different board members to play rounds and such! Straight Monarch-Epic, no variances, but its sure to be a cool deal. 5 people play a round, then we all decide whose save is the best, and then we all play from THAT save, not necessarily our own! So show your stuff, and you can be a "Guest Player" for a round, or even a whole game!

 

[Gocho]

@Nares

Spoiler :

Is Cathy the monster in your game too? She's has a GIANT army I've seen time to time and the only one with more power then me, I've basically given in on everything to her to avoid that fight so far. She's demanded and gotten Sailing, Calender, gems and religion from me already and I'm undecided if it's her or China next.

Edit: Just reread your post and it seems you've been fighting her for awhile! She's been peacefully building stacks of doom in my game and won't listen to my offers to send her to war.

 

[siggboy]

So show your stuff, and you can be a "Guest Player" for a round, or even a whole game!

It is off-topic, but please link the thread anyway ;-).

 

[Bleys]

It is off-topic, but please link the thread anyway ;-).

My bad, the new series bullpen is here, and the first game of the series is here.

Looks like its going to be a blast. Fun is why we play games, isnt it? Thats what I love about Civ IV. There are SO many cool things to do "outside the box" that keep it fresh. I never even play "offline" games anymore. Between the regular series games and shadowing a few RPC games, I am already way behind!

 

[patagonia]

Qin, Emperor/Normal (1615AD)

Spoiler :

This game just got even more brutal in double-quick time.

When I left off in 1080AD, I'd just destroyed Alex and was turning the troops around to start taking Ragnar's lands. By 1180AD I was ready to declare war, and suddenly noticed Ragnar had gone from being 3 techs behind me to about 8 in front. WTH?! His power graph had also rocketed past Cathy's, so I decided massed trebs were needed before I could make a serious attack on him. In the meantime, he marched though Russia to capture a couple of French cities and make Louis his vassal.

Fast-forward to 1500ish and I've got the sort of massive outdated SoD that Monty would be proud of and am ready to do some damage. I declared and was about to lay siege to one of his cities when a Viking SoD appeared in Russian lands, returning from the French war. I shifted my SoD back into China and obliterated his on my own turf, earning two GG in the same turn for doing so - my 4th and 5th of the game .

After a couple of turns of healing, I marched my stack back to the border and promptly had to destroy a similarly huge one in capturing the first Viking city.

Ragnar's graph took two huge hits as I destroyed those stacks, but he seems to be able to keep finding units from somewhere. I can definitely win this war (I even got Cathy to backstab him from pleased, bribing her with chemistry to join in on my side), but the fighting so far has completely crippled my economy with WW (research is on 0% with what isn't going to culture/happy barely covering costs) and I'll have to whip most of my cities down to size 5-6 to stay afloat.

Longer term, this game looks set for an AP or diplomatic win once Ragnar's dead. With Victoria universally hated and having built the AP, getting my pop above Cathy's and turning one Aztec city Hindu will give me the win that way (Cathy's friendly so she'll vote for me). I was originally thinking domination, but I'd ideally want Cathy's lands and don't fancy fighting against the SoZ which she's built.

Plus WW is affecting me personally

 

[siggboy]

I'm really struggling with Louis on this map. Very hard, at least for me. Maybe it's because I got a cold and can't think straight but still... these leaders are a major pain the neck ;-).

So far I got two attempts, retired both in the early ADs because I didn't see a point anymore going on.

@madscientist: do you have an update already? I'd love to see what you did in your game. Nobody else seems to play Louis.

 

[siggboy]

Spoiler :

Oddly I managed to found 3 religions this game with out actually intending, Poly @ turn 69? Mono @ turn 112? crazy which is handy to some extent as I was going for a culture win.

Spoiler :

Something similar happened to me in my first attempt: I founded a religion from POLYTHEISM in about 1800 BC. I was seriously confused when the "Pick a Religion" window popped up, because I actually only wanted to research it for the ToA and on the way to Priesthood.

I'm absolutely positive that never, ever has Poly been discovered so late in any game that I've played.

Overall the tech pace was very slow, my own as well as the one of every rivaling AI. I abandoned the game at some point because I couldn't handle the diplo and some bad wars that dragged on messed it up for me.

 

[Groogaroo]

@madscientist: do you have an update already? I'd love to see what you did in your game. Nobody else seems to play Louis.

@Siggboy

Well here was my result of an attempt with louis, back on page 2. Its not even a report more of a post mortem!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6751344&postcount=30

I'm finding Louis really tough too. I've tried a few times, on prince/epic, but keep throwing in the towel.

EDIT - opps you spotted my post before I got in!

 

[siggboy]

Looks like they have an hourly usage quota. Pictures may or may not work.

I wholeheartedly recommend Photobucket to host your screenshots. It's free, has an awesome user interface, and very reliable (hardly ever offline and the pics load fast). No silly quotas either.

 

[Bleys]

I'm really struggling with Louis on this map. Very hard,

I know what you mean, the diplo is brutal and the quarters are WAY too tight to feel "secure" in any way.

3 things I suggest to keep the peace.

Units
Units
More units.

Still, I can see myself getting backstabbed any minute, LOL.

 

[r_rolo1]

I simply don't have time to play this ( still making the LHC save so far... RNG is not being kind with me today ), but I think that the best way to cope this is remembering that being surrounded by backstabbers means that it is far easier to bribe them into wars with one another, making them to hate each other more than you ( and less prone of making big blocks and to attack you )....There is nothing like sending the AI one against each other while you are teching in relatively safety *devilish laugh*

Of course that some units are needed , but I have experience from some games with 3 of the fine AI that we have in this game and if you can pull it out, you may win the game without shedding blood ( not that you necessarily want that )

 

[Bandobras Took]

I know what you mean, the diplo is brutal and the quarters are WAY too tight to feel "secure" in any way.

3 things I suggest to keep the peace.

Units
Units
More units.

Still, I can see myself getting backstabbed any minute, LOL.

Though in my game, I only got attacked once, and that didn't even come to unit combat.

 

[Solon70]

Alexander, Monarch/Normal, 300 BC-1000 AD:

Spoiler :

My exchange with slobberinbear earlier made me realize that I kinda suck at playing a SE. I'm not saying I'm a CE player... more of a sloppy make some specialists but don't have a real plan player. For example, I suppose you don't NEED the Pyramids to run a SE... but isn't it something you at least WANT?

I have this problem where I never like to build early wonders because I get caught up in running my cities normally and then I'm like, oh geez, it must be way too late to start that wonder now. But then I remembered my recent game where I lost the Pyramids by 1 turn... in 1040 AD. So surely 300 BC isn't too late to start them! I began to build them in my capital, while I built a settler in Sparta and sent it west to hook up the stone. There was a great city spot with 4 resources... all in the second ring, though, which is annoying. I decided to take that spot anyway, get a monument up ASAP and hopefully it would still help me some with the Pyramids.

Only one problem... there was a barb city over there. 3 barb archers, too much for my escort to handle, I had to send for reinforcements. I figured I'd build the city and let it grow while I waited for the troops... except my city site is only 2 spaces from the barb city, can't put it there! I really should have just taken the suboptimal site and gotten the stone hooked up, but I was stubborn. The story has a happy ending...

The lesson here is that even though Monarch may be scary to a newbie like myself, you don't have to play perfectly to get one of the early wonders built. I need to worry less! By the way, I think it was about 2 turns after the Pyramids finished that I finally got that stone hooked up, heh.

Meanwhile, I had a nice science city going in Sparta. I built an academy there with my first GS, and then my second GS gave me some tough choices. I was getting behind in tech, but not too hopelessly so, and I saw a chance to bulb a tech that might help me win the Liberalism race...

This gave me Taoism, which fortunately popped up in a city that has future Wall Street potential. Mind you, I'm not sure how well I'll be able to spread it since Cathy has spread Hinduism virtually everywhere.

The bad news is that it's 1000 AD and I still have only 5 cities, including the 2 I captured from the Chinese all those years ago. I'm poised to finally eliminate China (he's no threat, but the cultural pressure is annoying), but it's not a great city site to keep. While I'm doing okay in tech, Cathy has some scary fast tech times going and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to keep up with her. Hopefully she'll stay at war with Ragnar for a good long time and get bloodied a little.

Do I have a shot in this thing? I guess we'll find out. Part of the problem is that when I look at it, my land is really crappy, a decent number of resources but just 2 lakes, no rivers. Those riverside tiles are just so key in the early game. China's territory looks much, much better - good thing I own it now!

 

[Bleys]

How big were your garrisons BT? I havent read any spoilers yet, since I am playing myself.

Heres my first report:

Cathy, Monarch Light (Prince save, Monarch difficulty chosen, AIs have to tech Archery), Epic speed, 4000 BC through 400 AD:

Spoiler :

Well, I think I should have went for straight Monarch, as I am having a "failry" easy time of it.

Settled in place, started a Worker and BW (standard for me almost every single game). Scout popped a hut that got me another scout, but even that didnt pay off very well, I only managed 2 other huts and both of them gave gold. The AIs were just so close and had more roaming units to scarf up the huts.

Wasnt a big deal though, I did get to scout out a few solid city placements. I teched through BW, then went AH, Wheel, Pottery, Masonry, Myst, Poly, Priest. I built Worker, Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Worker, Settler, Settler, Pyramids. No, I didnt have stone, and I knew there were a couple IND civs, but I went for them anyway. I had a lot of trees to chop, and I really felt like I was better off in an SE than a vulnerable CE where my cottages would be difficult to keep safe in wartime. I knew I was in the middle of the land, but still, Moscow was on the coast, and my first 2 cities were also coastal, so I also went for the GLH and Colossus.

2nd city was east, on the 2 elephant, horse, wheat, oasis site. 3rd city was north, with the Copper, cows, and 2 Gems. 4th City was also NNE, 2N+1E of Marble, getting the marble, 1 gem, and 3 silks in the BFC. I knew, given these excellent city locations, I could make a strong game of it if I could be left alone to do my thing. That meant some early military units to discourage wars, and giving in to a couple tribute demands.

Vicky founded Buddhism, and spread it to all 4 of my cities, and since only Monty was even in another religion, I revolted to Buddhism. I also made good friends with VIcky, because I could tell she was teching like mad, first to writing, first to Alpha. I managed to build the Oracle in about 5 turns with a couple chops and the Marble hooked up the very turn I started it. Took MC, which I traded to Vicky for Alpha, and then traded for the rest of my back techs, mostly with Alex, who was also a Buddhist. I got IW, Archery, and Sailing for MC from Alex, and we were off to a good start with my 2 biggest rivals (score-wise, we shared the lead, Louis was very far behind, and Qin was boxed in quite a bit)

Then the time came, I noticed Alex and Ragnar sent a pile of units through me toward Vicky, so naturally, I backstabbed her myself! LOL. Monty had also DoWed her, but he also backstabbed me! He was no threat though, Axemen chew up Jags, and I had Axe-Spear-Archer combo in ALL cities, not including my attack force. I razed a couple of Vickys cities, kept London because it was the Buddhist Holy City, and I expect Alex to put Vicky out of the game any turn now. I managed to build a good number of Swords and Cats with my early Forges up and running, and careful whipping of units. I also expanded into Vickys motherload of Floodplains after I razed her cities. Its sweet, I now have control of the entire center of the map, with Louis and Monty on one side, and Qin, Alex and Ragnar on the other. My territory stretches from northern shore to southern.

I should have enough Power to avoid a backstab, but I am keeping units coming out anyway. During the war I also managed to tech to Lit and build the GL. I have good pops in most cities, and the Mids is keeping me happy tech-speed wise. I did build cottages on the FPs by Moscow and St Pete, but other than that, its all farms and mines for specialists and production flexibility. Once I hit Calendar (teching now), I am going to be in great shape, Moscow has 3 spice in BFC, I have antoerh city in the Dye area to the NW, and the 3 silk in Marble City will rake in the cash. Gems are already a huge help, allowing me to stay around 50% slider even though I am running specialists as well.

Didnt take any screenies, but I am really liking this game. I can see more backstabs coming in the near future, and I expect them all to try to hit me before long, as I am going to run away with the game once Vicky is gone and I get my Plantations up. Still looking over my shoulder though, heh. Very enjoyable.

OOHH I also teched Theology, missed Christianity by 2 turns, but got a GE right after and rush-built the AP. I may actually get an AP win if I wanted it. Cant decide.