[LP] Qin The Unifier Barb Exploit?

[blackbutterfly]

I mean, that is the point of the ability. It's not an exploit if it's intentional.

😆

It is an exploit if you are able to dominate your neighbours and snowball.
OP I think it is called.

Unifier Qin is sure to get banned on MP.

Anyway, I did a playthrough with Zombies on snowflake and never have I ever been able to keep on top of zombies so effortlessly as Qin.
Just FYI I had the opportunity to go domination and take the other 5 caps but I wanted to build the Great Wall.
I also have never dominated snowflake like this before. Deity. Marathon. Culture win. (+Monopolies).

 

[AntSou]

It is an exploit if you are able to dominate your neighbours and snowball.

No, it is an exploit if a player manages to exploit a mechanic in a manner which was not intended in the original design, or due to a bug.

Exploit and OP aren't the same thing. So there's grounds to consider it an exploit in the Zombie mode, but otherwise it's just OP (and is it? OP compared to whom or what? I haven't really seen any convincing evidence. Most players have been mentioning Yongle as the OP leader in the pack. Just because you can use your first warrior to convert barbarian units doesn't say much by itself).

 

[blackbutterfly]

No, it is an exploit if a player manages to exploit a mechanic in a manner which was not intended in the original design, or due to a bug.

It's certainly an exploit in Zombies mode.

Also in Barbarian Clans mode.

OP otherwise.

Happy?

 

[AntSou]

Nope. It's not an exploit in Barbarian Clans mode either

 

[blackbutterfly]

Nope. It's not an exploit in Barbarian Clans mode either

Clans produce advanced units. (Don't spend money to hire them, use your Barb Conversion to convert them! Raid rather than disperse clans.)

Qin can exploit this by squatting a melee unit, pref. a zombie, on a village (or where ever barbs/zombies will spawn). Here is TSL Huge Earth with some new world and European civs.
Unlike in zombie mode where you will basically amass a zombie horde, with clans you can amass an advanced army (no need to upgrade units), which is here marching on Rome 😛

wait, so is it actually bad to build the great wall in this mode, then? doesnt it damage the zombies, meaning when you convert them you get them starting at lower health? never really played this mode, interested to know

Great Wall is to generate gold (rather than actually provide defence) b'cos with snowballing army your costs go up, so keep an eye on gold.

 

[AntSou]

Clans produce advanced units.

Even better, you can pay a small amount for them to attack enemy civs, meaning they will spawn units which you can then convert, making it cheaper than if you had built/bought them yourself.

I had not considered that, though tbf that actually makes me more interested in Qin than I previously was.

 

[Aurelesk]

So basically:

1. Melee units from City-States can be sacrificed to gain Barbarian units.
2. Hagia Sofia allows to gain an extra Spread ability, allowing either to convert 2 times, or convert 1 time without the Melee unit dying.
3. Zombie are classified as Melee, therefore allowing a snowballing in a Zombie Mode.
4. Barbarian Mode is abusable, since you don't disperse a clan by stepping on it, and they can be bribed into generating unit that you will convert right away.

I wonder what can be done to "solve" those issues, if they are issues in the first place.

1. City-States: I don't think it need to be fixed: I see it more as emergent gameplay. Maybe it is too strong at higher difficulty since City-States start with additional Melee units. But you have to work for it (being Suzerain, then spend Gold to Levy, then hope you don't lose the Suzerain status).
   • I don't know if it can be fix without screwing all the fun anyway. Something like "Melee units trained or bought by Qin (Unifier) start with the Convert ability", which will also prevent Barbarian to inherit the ability too, would be extremely limitative and anti-fun. So I guess it is better to do nothing.
2. Hagia Sofia: I don't think it is overpowered, yet I don't think it should be a thing. I don't understand why Melee units are deleted once their charge are gone. Imagine if Legion died when building Roman Fort because they could not remove the "remove unit when 0 charge/spread left". By the time it is available (founding a Religion, then build it), there would be not much Barbarian left.
   • The easy fix would be "+1 Spread to Missionary, Apostle and Guru".
   • The better fix would be to not remove the Melee units when they use their last spread.
3. Zombie: Here it can be a problem. It snowballs way too hard. It used to be a problem with Convert Barbarian with the Apostle: each time a Zombie kill a unit, it generates a Zombie, even if you control a Zombie into killing Zombie. A Zombie Army (+17CS) with 2 turns of Defense (+10 CS) on a Wood Hill (+6 CS) has +33 CS, enough to OS any Zombie. Each turn, a Zombie will show up and suicide itself on my Zombie Army.
   • Fix1: Create a new Civilization named Zombie, making Zombies under the "Zombie" Civilization instead of the "Barbarian" Civilization, therefore unable to get control of them from the "Convert Barbarian" ability.
     • Zombies would feast on Barbarian to multiply. Should it be a limitation? Like how Eagle Warrior cannot generate Builders from Barbarians? Or make them ally so they don't even dare to attack each other?
   • Fix2: Change the Zombie class from "Melee" to "Warrior Monk". You could still control them, but you could not snowball with them (can we have Warrior Monk enjoy from Oligarchy +4 CS? I think they deserve something)
4. Barbarian Mode: Like City-States, I see this as emergent gameplay too for the same reason. I don't say that because I can't think of anything to "solve" or "limit" the power of that strategy.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So basically:

1. Melee units from City-States can be sacrificed to gain Barbarian units.
2. Hagia Sofia allows to gain an extra Spread ability, allowing either to convert 2 times, or convert 1 time without the Melee unit dying.
3. Zombie are classified as Melee, therefore allowing a snowballing in a Zombie Mode.
4. Barbarian Mode is abusable, since you don't disperse a clan by stepping on it, and they can be bribed into generating unit that you will convert right away.

I wonder what can be done to "solve" those issues, if they are issues in the first place.

1. City-States: I don't think it need to be fixed: I see it more as emergent gameplay. Maybe it is too strong at higher difficulty since City-States start with additional Melee units. But you have to work for it (being Suzerain, then spend Gold to Levy, then hope you don't lose the Suzerain status).
   • I don't know if it can be fix without screwing all the fun anyway. Something like "Melee units trained or bought by Qin (Unifier) start with the Convert ability", which will also prevent Barbarian to inherit the ability too, would be extremely limitative and anti-fun. So I guess it is better to do nothing.
2. Hagia Sofia: I don't think it is overpowered, yet I don't think it should be a thing. I don't understand why Melee units are deleted once their charge are gone. Imagine if Legion died when building Roman Fort because they could not remove the "remove unit when 0 charge/spread left". By the time it is available (founding a Religion, then build it), there would be not much Barbarian left.
   • The easy fix would be "+1 Spread to Missionary, Apostle and Guru".
   • The better fix would be to not remove the Melee units when they use their last spread.
3. Zombie: Here it can be a problem. It snowballs way too hard. It used to be a problem with Convert Barbarian with the Apostle: each time a Zombie kill a unit, it generates a Zombie, even if you control a Zombie into killing Zombie. A Zombie Army (+17CS) with 2 turns of Defense (+10 CS) on a Wood Hill (+6 CS) has +33 CS, enough to OS any Zombie. Each turn, a Zombie will show up and suicide itself on my Zombie Army.
   • Fix1: Create a new Civilization named Zombie, making Zombies under the "Zombie" Civilization instead of the "Barbarian" Civilization, therefore unable to get control of them from the "Convert Barbarian" ability.
     • Zombies would feast on Barbarian to multiply. Should it be a limitation? Like how Eagle Warrior cannot generate Builders from Barbarians? Or make them ally so they don't even dare to attack each other?
   • Fix2: Change the Zombie class from "Melee" to "Warrior Monk". You could still control them, but you could not snowball with them (can we have Warrior Monk enjoy from Oligarchy +4 CS? I think they deserve something)
4. Barbarian Mode: Like City-States, I see this as emergent gameplay too for the same reason. I don't say that because I can't think of anything to "solve" or "limit" the power of that strategy.

Apparently, Beowulf in Heroes and Legends mode can convert them too.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm playing Qin now and was doing some exploring with warriors. Australia was unusually aggressive this game. John took out Spain, then came at me. But my warriors were all out and about. I had a few former barbs at home, guarding. A horseman, a Chariot (from a meteor) and a warrior.

So, with the Aussies banging down my door, I flipped a bunch of barbs up to the north and sent the horde pillaging through Australia's cities, and even liberated Madrid. Finally, I crushed him army and relieved the seige.

Pretty satisfying.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Fix2: Change the Zombie class from "Melee" to "Warrior Monk".

Yes, modding the Zombie class to something other than Melee should do the trick.

I'd say put it in a class of its own.

Even then Qin's zombies can still exploit with the governor Moksha and Laying of Hands promotion.
Just leaving a couple of zombies in your cap when they are being swarmed by barbs will passively increase zombie strength every turn:

 

[Linklite]

Personally, I prefer the "make zombies a civ" fix - it would allow zombie mode to play without having to have barbs on. Just an extra bit of agency.

 

[Benzombie]

Wow, such a Unifier, even the dead are on board!

 

[Aurelesk]

Personally, I prefer the "make zombies a civ" fix - it would allow zombie mode to play without having to have barbs on. Just an extra bit of agency.

It can be both: Zombies are their own civilization (with a Green and Black color?) and they are classified as Warrior Monk. Qin could still gain control of the Zombies with the Turn Undead / Dark Signal projects and sacrifice them to gain control of Barbarian, but not anymore if Zombies are not melee anymore.

 

[Abaxial]

It seems though, that if you convert a barbarian melee unit, that unit can't go on and convert more units.

I also tried with vampires. A vampire can convert barbarians, but you lose it permanently. I thought it might reappear in your capital.

 

[UWHabs]

It seems though, that if you convert a barbarian melee unit, that unit can't go on and convert more units.

I also tried with vampires. A vampire can convert barbarians, but you lose it permanently. I thought it might reappear in your capital.

You can convert a barbarian warrior to convert more. But the ability is specific to the melee class of units, so Spearmen don't have the ability. Ideally you run into the camps that spawn warriors, as you can chain those ones. You want at least one of them nearby so that you can build up your supply of warriors to continue converting.

 

[blackbutterfly]

You can convert a barbarian warrior to convert more. But the ability is specific to the melee class of units, so Spearmen don't have the ability. Ideally you run into the camps that spawn warriors, as you can chain those ones. You want at least one of them nearby so that you can build up your supply of warriors to continue converting.

Yes!

When you use your Convert Barb action make sure to have AT LEAST ONE melee barb unit around your unit.

That way you Fibonacci your way to a horde army! 😄

It works best in Zombies mode because zombies swarm...and barb swarms are exactly what you exploit.

In Clans mode you park a melee unit in a village. Raid and convert the spawn. Rinse & repeat.
It's more grind than zombies but at least you will have a more diverse and technologically advanced army (and navy).

 

[Tech Osen]

Don't know if it was mentioned yet but vampires also get the convert barbarian option, and it will permanently kill them.

 

[Abaxial]

Yep I assumed wrongly that spearmen were melee units.

 

[Disgustipated]

Australia was unusually aggressive this game

This made me laugh. He's always aggressive in my games.

 

[InsidiousMage]

This made me laugh. He's always aggressive in my games.

Yeah, I've noticed that in a lot of my games leaders with a more pacifist unique agenda act really aggressive while leaders with domination orientated abilities tend to turtle and not conquer other civs.