Quarter Finals: England vs Portugal

[C~G]

I like this picture

The expression in Ferdinand's face is priceless.

 

[privatehudson]

what is it with the hunger of the English 'supporters' for a scapegoat? In 98 it was Beckham, in '04 it was the referee who got death threats and now Ronaldo. I mean can't they accept a defeat? It's not as if England looked like a likely winner alltoghether in those events.

Its not so much our supporters but the media. To save having to admit we weren't really that good they blame one or two people and victimise them for a mistake or two. It saves them having to actually write a decent story for a change. The idjits amongst the general public read these papers and believe the stories, and of course the papers will always print comments/letters that agree with their opinions as well.

 

[Truronian]

I blame Rooney for being sent off. He should know better. However I believe what Ronaldo was doing was out of line aswell. If one problem has emerged in this World Cup, its the problem of playing to get opponents sent off rather than playing for goals.

England deserved a victory in this match IMO. They have not been one of the best four teams though (probably not one of the best eight), with luck of the draw influencing their progress heavily.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Based on the tabloids and reaction at work this morning, it appears that Ronaldo is the scapegoat. As Alan Shearer pointed out at the time, why is it all of the other teams go rushing up to the referee and try to convince him to sed the opponent off - we don't do that, "maybe we're too honest". Grief - has this man never seen a Manchester United - Arsenal game ? And is it really more dishonest being angry that your teammate has been stomped in the goolies than actually doing the stomping itself ?

I'm surprised that no-one yet has pointed out the real villain of the piece - Carvalho, who in a very unmanly fashion needlessly thrust his testicles into the way of Rooney's boot.

The sad part here is really that this was a very good collection of England players - the starting outfield 10 were very strong, potentially as good a team England have had in 16, maybe 36 years. However, the bench was weak, the squad selection deranged, and the tactics insipid. The disappointment for Beckham et al must be that they'll never really know how far they could have gone with a better coach, getting them to play the more positive and cohesive game which they have all shown they are able to do individually at club level.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Ifeel incredibly cheated by Ronaldo after this game. He, and Rooney, has basically cheated the English Press from laying the whole of the blame for a terrible World Cup at the door of SGE.

I'd defended the England team throughout this World Cup but the fact remains that we've been a boring, predictable and unadventurous side.

What could demonstrate this more by Sven's inclusion of 3 holding players and only 2 fit strikers? One of whom he obviously was not going to put on in any circumstance.

Yes, Ronaldo made a meal of the situation, yes, perhaps Rooney should have had a yellow rather than a red but if he stayed on, based on the first 60 mins, we would have gone to penalties anyway.

We weren't good enough and, with players of the quality England have, I think the coach should shoulder the blame. I don't know how much influence over Sven Big Steve McLari has had so I don't know to what extent he should be tarnished by association.

 

[raen]

Players are not saints, they never were. People sometimes make them saints, but they are like any human being.

We portuguese, in General, dont like Cristiano for his lack of team play, too many dribbles sometimes and his attitude (getting worse every year). But he will have what he deserves in time, if he feels good about what he do he will get his consequences in Future.

Now, Rooney got out because of Ronaldo making him the bed? He told the referee, wow, he is a complainer; He winks, wow, he thinks he is the man. I despise all those "qualities".

Rooney got out by himself.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

@PoL I quite agree, though I frankly don't think Ronaldo did anything all that bad. He certainly won't win any prizes for sportsmanship, but I think the press are deluding themselves if they think the referee changed his mind on the sending off because of the Portugese players' reaction.

In a way, it was almost unfortunate that SGE's first (?) game in charge was the 5-1 win in Germany - that seemed to buy him so much goodwill and gratitude that he could then get away with mistakes for the rest of his tenure. I'll never understand why he couldn't use his friendlies to find the best team, playing the best formation and with the best tactics - actually, I think the thing that appals me most is that it never felt that he was even trying to do that in the friendlies, so much as give first caps to a host of unknowns and "nearly was"es, and not upset senior club managers by playing their men for more than 60 minutes.

How come it's almost by accident that he discovers that Owen Hargreaves is a strong defensive midfielder ?

 

[Pangur Bán]

I don't know how any sane person could question the red card. It was a terrible offence, and he deserves a good 5 match ban for it; he could have ruined the life of that player. I watched the game on the BBC, and even the usually biased commentators agreed it was a sending-off offence, and they even criticized Beckham for protesting.

I remember all the criticism Beckham got in 98 for an offence which should not have been a straight red card, yet Rooney escapes! This isn't right. At least Beckham was a great player. I have to agree Leonardo, who as an analyst for the BBC, pointed out that Rooney has not yet gone anywhere close to proving he is a great player. He was rubbish at the world cup, scuffing that crucial shot against Portugal. For the latter, the reason supposedly was frustration at being played without support. I also heard this reason for the stamp! This is ridiculous. Is he God or something? Does the England team have to play just to suit him, or to win matches? He threw a fit when he was subbed in one of the group games, and no-one commented. The guy not only failed to score in the world cup, but scored no goals whatsoever in the qualifying. Yeah, he's got a few goals against the sieve-like premiership defences, but despite playing with the excellent service of the Man Utd team, still scored less than Darren Bent of Charlton. He's an immature overrated thuggish brat. And you know, looking at his physique, I've got the feeling the guy has just benefited from earlier physical development, and ain't ever gonna be much better than he currently is, a 16 goal a year center-forward.

 

[MCdread]

Based on the tabloids and reaction at work this morning, it appears that Ronaldo is the scapegoat. As Alan Shearer pointed out at the time, why is it all of the other teams go rushing up to the referee and try to convince him to sed the opponent off - we don't do that, "maybe we're too honest". Grief - has this man never seen a Manchester United - Arsenal game ? And is it really more dishonest being angry that your teammate has been stomped in the goolies than actually doing the stomping itself ?

I'm surprised that no-one yet has pointed out the real villain of the piece - Carvalho, who in a very unmanly fashion needlessly thrust his testicles into the way of Rooney's boot.

The sad part here is really that this was a very good collection of England players - the starting outfield 10 were very strong, potentially as good a team England have had in 16, maybe 36 years. However, the bench was weak, the squad selection deranged, and the tactics insipid. The disappointment for Beckham et al must be that they'll never really know how far they could have gone with a better coach, getting them to play the more positive and cohesive game which they have all shown they are able to do individually at club level.

Well, it almost seems that summing up whatever Ronaldo told the referee with the chat between both players in the tunnel before the kickoff already being transformed in Ronaldo maliciously smiling at the valiant Rooney lad and telling him he'd get him sent off that day, we have in our hands the tip of an enormous crypto-jewish world conspiracy to ruin England and inocent Rooney's career. I myself don't like Ronaldo and think he's a spoiled prima donna, but what's going on is ridiculous. It's even being said that now Man Utd is going to kick him off the club for what he did Saturday. Right, I can really see Ferguson selling out every footballer of his that doesn't behave as a pure angel. Just like he did with Cantona or Keane for that matter. Ronaldo will probably leave Manchester because everyone in the club must be fed up with his prima donna behaviour and his statements about Real Madrid right after Ferguson backed him agains van Nistelrooy.

Even if he asked the card. Not a good conduct, I agree, and punishable with a yellow card. Besides that, so what? Carragher had the sense of reality to tell after the game that every team does it, in Europe (ie, across the channel) and in England as well. Besides, even Eriksson himself and FIFA have said that Rooney was sent off because of tumping Carvalho's balls, which, cause and effect, happened before Ronaldo ran towards the referee to complain.

 

[ThERat]

I have closely followed English football and the national team since years and have learned to hate SGE's tactics, which is a mix of cluelessness, defend a 1:0 and not knowing how to use the strong individual squad to it's advantage.

As I always think, a good coach is one that is able to mold a successful team from average players (like Rehagel did with Greece or Hiddink with Australia), a bad coach can't even make a strong individual squad succeed like SGE.

I have gotten some flaks here as well as called a troll as I coninued my rants against that coach. But I really am happt that SGE has to leave the English side without achieving anything. His negative clueless approach must not get rewarded. England could have done much better in the last few years given the players they have.

It's sad that the English press has yet again found a foreigner to blame (Ronaldo) instead of maybe Rooney or their own FA for selecting SGE in the first place (and sticking with him so long paying him insane money)

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

@ calgacus
You missed the /Rant from your post.

In slow motion, with hindsight, and outside the pressure and intesity of the moment yes, Rooney's foul looked bad. When I saw it first in real time it seemed to me that Rooney was just fighting for the ball, which isn't against the rules, and had simply stepped on the guy as he tried to regain his footing.

As others have pointed out, it seemed quite clear from the reaction of the Referee that it was the push on Ronaldo that earned Roonpig* Rooney the red card.

I may be wrong, but until football adopts the Rugby technique of referees signalling for the type of foul committed, I suppose we won't know**.

I would hope that the reason the press didn't go after Rooney as they did Beckham is due to the fact the press is showing some maturity. The press whipped up a storm with the England fans regarding Beckham and I don't think they were quite prepared for the death threats and everything else that followed. I may very well be deluding myself, especially reading some "editorials" re: Ronaldo, but there it is.

*Sorry, already reverting back to old Liverpool / Man U rivalry.

** Has the referees report shown what the card was for yet?

 

[Pangur Bán]

I'm surprised that no-one yet has pointed out the real villain of the piece - Carvalho, who in a very unmanly fashion needlessly thrust his testicles into the way of Rooney's boot.

Indeed, I'm surprised there have been no calls to get Carvalho banned.

The sad part here is really that this was a very good collection of England players - the starting outfield 10 were very strong, potentially as good a team England have had in 16, maybe 36 years. However, the bench was weak, the squad selection deranged, and the tactics insipid. The disappointment for Beckham et al must be that they'll never really know how far they could have gone with a better coach, getting them to play the more positive and cohesive game which they have all shown they are able to do individually at club level.

You really think so? I think England had a better team in 96 and 98. England still lack the technical ability of the best continental sides; they need again to have players like Paul Gascoigne. And ask, how many of the current England team could get into the Brazil team, or even the France team? Beckham and maybe Gerrard, but that's about it I think.

 

[Pangur Bán]

@ calgacus
You missed the /Rant from your post.

In slow motion, with hindsight, and outside the pressure and intesity of the moment yes, Rooney's foul looked bad. When I saw it first in real time it seemed to me that Rooney was just fighting for the ball, which isn't against the rules, and had simply stepped on the guy as he tried to regain his footing.

I'm sorry, Rooney did that in purporse; it was blatantly a lash-out.

 

[ThERat]

England team could get into the Brazil team, or even the France team? Beckham and maybe Gerrard, but that's about it I think.

well, I think the Brazilian team could use some of the English defenders, wouldn't harm them

 

[MCdread]

As others have pointed out, it seemed quite clear from the reaction of the Referee that it was the push on Ronaldo that earned Roonpig* Rooney the red card.

I may be wrong, but until football adopts the Rugby technique of referees signalling for the type of foul committed, I suppose we won't know**.

It has been settled that it was for stamping on Carvalho (even Eriksson said it immediatly after the game, having been told of it by the referee himself), and that's what he's going to answer for in the coming FIFA hearing, where it will be decided the length of the ban. De Rossi got 4, so I'm expecting 2, maybe 3.

 

[MCdread]

You really think so? I think England had a better team in 96 and 98. England still lack the technical ability of the best continental sides; they need again to have players like Paul Gascoigne. And ask, how many of the current England team could get into the Brazil team, or even the France team? Beckham and maybe Gerrard, but that's about it I think.

I think this was a good collection of players. What lacked was some team chemistry but especially the right mentality. These players seemed to be tired, passionless and afraid of certain game situations. Reviseing all the Eriksson's tournaments, I guess that England got to where the team was good enough to et, but then it lacked that extra something of passion and motivation that a coach should inspire. The teams that have gone further than England in these past few years are not necessarily better, at least some of them definitely weren't. What they had was, perhaps a little bit of fortune now and then, but mostly atitude and fighting spirit.
Maradona is a fool, but once he said something interesting about what it is needed to win. He said that, to win a cup, you need to know how to suffer before and how to overcome it. To me it seems that, when it came the time to suffer, like the penalty shoot outs, or the game against a beatable Brazil in 2002, England crumbled.

 

[Marshy]

We weren't good enough and, with players of the quality England have, I think the coach should shoulder the blame.

And the real sickener for the average English fan is that Sven is now £24 million richer than he was when he started. That's £24 million that could have been put into the game at grassroots level (well, minus £1 million a year for a decent national coach).

It is unfortunate that England went down to 10 men and went out on a penalty shootout. It gives the FA an excuse. The fear is that they will sweep the problems under the carpet instead of dealing with the failure of the national team.

 

[Pangur Bán]

I think this was a good collection of players. What lacked was some team chemistry but especially the right mentality. These players seemed to be tired, passionless and afraid of certain game situations. Reviseing all the Eriksson's tournaments, I guess that England got to where the team was good enough to et, but then it lacked that extra something of passion and motivation that a coach should inspire. The teams that have gone further than England in these past few years are not necessarily better, at least some of them definitely weren't. What they had was, perhaps a little bit of fortune now and then, but mostly atitude and fighting spirit.
Maradona is a fool, but once he said something interesting about what it is needed to win. He said that, to win a cup, you need to know how to suffer before and how to overcome it. To me it seems that, when it came the time to suffer, like the penalty shoot outs, or the game against a beatable Brazil in 2002, England crumbled.

You may be right to a certain extent; they missed all but one of their penalties. And in 2004 England without question were better than Greece, but I don't think England are as good as any of the current semi-finalists, with the possible exception of Germany, who are playing at home. England biggest problem for me is the lack of technically exceptional players (like, for instance, Paul Gascoigne), and the lack of depth in their squad. They lost Beckham and Owen, as well as Rooney. You look at the bench, and compare it for instance with the Portuguese side, you realize England have got some way to go if they wanna compete successfully with the best.

 

[MCdread]

You may be right to a certain extent; they missed all but one of their penalties. And in 2004 England without question were better than Greece, but I don't think England are as good as any of the current semi-finalists, with the possible exception of Germany, who are playing at home. England biggest problem for me is the lack of technically exceptional players (like, for instance, Paul Gascoigne), and the lack of depth in their squad. They lost Beckham and Owen, as well as Rooney. You look at the bench, and compare it for instance with the Portuguese side, you realize England have got some way to go if they wanna compete successfully with the best.

Hmm... though the english bench was nothing special, the portuguese bench might be even worse. Hugo Viana, Postiga, Petit (playing as starter in this game), Simão are very little above average players.
Another proble I think England had was the game plan. There was a massive campaign around Rooney and his fitness before the WC, and when he returned was hailed as the messiah, and expected to solve the problems. But the whole tournament, in the game he played, he was left alone on the attack chasing lost balls and fighting again 2 or 3 defenders at the same time, with litle support. Considering the status he was given, the pressure he had, and the little support he was getting, while being expected to win the cup for England à la Maradona, it's not surprising that he was hugely frustrated during the minutes before that incident with Ricardo Carvalho (and Ronaldo)...

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

And the real sickener for the average English fan is that Sven is now £24 million richer than he was when he started. That's £24 million that could have been put into the game at grassroots level (well, minus £1 million a year for a decent national coach).

It is unfortunate that England went down to 10 men and went out on a penalty shootout. It gives the FA an excuse. The fear is that they will sweep the problems under the carpet instead of dealing with the failure of the national team.

From what I read in The Times Terry Venables, who has taken England further in a tournament than Sven has managed in his time as manager, was on about £250,000 a year as manager. IIRC.