Question about the Bannor

[orangelex44]

I guess I'm behind the times a bit on my Dwarven lore - I thought the above-grounders and below-grounders were still essentially one nation, but as I think about it the Dwarves withdrew underground quite a bit before the actual Fall. Hence, the above-grounders (Luichirp predecessors) would've been a separate group.

As for the rest, I'd say it's possible for most of them to have survived in some form over the Age of Ice. Let's run through the list:

The Bannor (took that sojourn in hell)
The Malakim (from Varn's story, they were a subsistence people with no history other than verbal lore; could have been anything in the previous Age; possibly an Egypt?)
The Balseraphs (with an immortal leader, gives enough constancy to be nearly unchanged - although that seems a little... odd... considering Perp)
The Calabim (again, could've started as anything, probably a random group of survivors from Calaba the city - this makes a neat point. All the -im endings could result from city names. I know that it wasn't the original reason for the names, but from a lore perspective, it makes sense this way)
The Lanun (A small seafaring nation? With Aifon competition, probably a weaker power)
The Illians (this has been mentioned already)
The Hippus (Probably weren't a nation, just a racial group with common features/beliefs/culture- nationhood is a new concept for them, they probably were a under the control of the Bannor empire)
The Elohim (this one is tough - survival over the Age of Ice would've been hard, seeing as they weren't really a nation, were scattered hither and yon, and had no real infrastructure - or they were a city (that -im thing again) that was associated with that order, i.e. the Knights of Eloha or something)
The Grigori (With Cassiel to provide leadership, easy to have survived as a nation over the AoI)


Now, these are just the surviving nations/peoples. Going with my -im = city theory (I still say it's plausable!), that says at least two of them were not nations before the AoI (unless they were city-states, the Venice or Athens of their time). The Hippus were likely not a nation, either. The Elohim weren't a nation. That leaves - five as nations of one kind or another. The Bannor (who were dominant), the Balseraphs (who were probably something like gypsies), the Lanun (maybe, probably not a strong nation UNLESS they'd filled the Aifon void), the Grigori (who followed Cassiel when he broke off of Patria, and as such were influential back then) and, finally, the Illians, who were largely disregarded before they pulled off their amazing coup.

That list is a little weak. Only five countries were around in the aftermath of Patria? I agree with Magister, there must have been something more, we just don't know them.

Oh, and MC, I like the Lanun as a nation only because ships require a large national infrastructure to build and maintain, and as such, a seafaring people would need to have been at least semiautonomous.

I like that Perpy the Caswallan bit, it's clever.

To continue jacking this thread with unrelated questions, did any of Kylorin's students follow him into the Good side of things?

And Nikis-Knight, where is that picture from? Should I be scanning the scenario names again?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

How I was picturing it was that Kylorin and Perpentach battled very shortly after the Patrian upheaval (some undefined moment of rebellion by K's students after his change of heart). Perp was locked away in the tower, and Kylorin went on with his buisiness of cleaning up his empire (destroying it in the process). Perp was returned to insanity (ie. being unable to discern reality from his mind) in the process of fight, as you said he would likely have been triumphant if not for this 'dirty' tactic of K's. The circus people were the first minds he took over in his escape, and the in the Mommus was the longest his mind had been in anothers. This is where the Carnival comes from. So even in the Age of Magic, the tail end, anyway, they had a circus theme, but muted as Perp was still hiding from Kylorin.

Perhaps, but, in that case, how was one of the main 9 factions in the Patrian civil war the Balseraphs under the leadership of the sorcerer Perpentach? It doesn't seem like they would have become a distinct nation in the Age of Magic if their leader was vanquished so early on.


I prefer to think that Perpentach was (one of) the last sorcerers Kyorlin defeated. We know that Kyorlin and Perpentach's conflict happened after Kyorlin killed Gastrius, and that Perpentach had committed far greater sins. Perpentach probably has at least one copy of all of Kyorlin's students in his mind, so if he wanted to he could probably master all their forms of magic. I can think of no one else who could have risen to be Cassawallen. I see the way that Kyorlin took him in as a child to be essentially adopting him as his own son, and making him the heir apparent to the patrian throne in the eyes of their subjects.



I believe that Kael has stated that it was Kyorlin who rebelled, not his students. Of course, I guess it would be hard to determine who should be called a rebel when a despot rebels against his system of government and is resisted by his deputies.


So, you're saying that the Momus found Perpentach during the Age of Magic? I was under the impression that it was already the age of rebirth before the carnies wandered within the range of his mental powers.



It is pretty clear that the civilizations in FfH did all not start at the beginning of the age. I tend to prefer the depth the story takes on when you spread the empires out over much longer periods, so some have almost fallen by the time others arise. I was thinking that the Balseraphs would be one of the younger civilizations (although the civilization within Perpentach's mind is the oldest), albeit not so young as the Kuriotates or the Sidar.


(I think someone asked about the Sidar earlier and I forgot to say that they were founded by men who came across the books of Laroth that Varn Gosam had taken out of the Shadowed Vale. I like to think that it the books were locked away in some Malakim desert monastery for at least a century before the soon-to-be-Sidar found them and discovered their power. )

 

[Nikis-Knight]

To continue jacking this thread with unrelated questions, did any of Kylorin's students follow him into the Good side of things?

I assume so, especially since one was Trenton Majori (sp?) the Aifon, who at the very least wasn't willing to restart the godswar to save his people, certainly neutral at worst. But the evil ones, or those that were willing to tolerate evil, would have been those most likely to be chosen and trained by Kylorin.

 

[orangelex44]

I notice, Nikis, that you didn't answer my SECOND unrelated question...

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The war splinters the empire with Kylorin leading good religious forces against the creations and unholy magic of the sorcerers. By the end 9 human nations have been formed; the Elohim keepers of memories and guardians of the sacred parts of the world; the Bannor, keepers of the sacred fire and the greatest enemies of the sorcerers; the Malakim, desert nomads and men of faith; the Lanun, traders and seamen; the Hippus; horse lords and mercenary's; the Grigori, followers of Cassiel; the Balseraphs, lead by the sorcerer Perpentach; the Illians, who dwelt in the tundra and ravaged lands; and the Calabim, who became ruled by Alexis and Flauros

As I read that, there weren't nine factions in a civil war, there were two--Kylorin, and the establishment he was trying to reform. However, this struggle brought down the empire entirely, and in the last days of the Age of Magic nine nations were forming from the ruins.
The Balseraph leader was vanquished, I think, before he was a leader of anyone. Once he escaped, he ruled those people who remained after using them to defeat the golems.

Perpentach probably has at least one copy of all of Kyorlin's students in his mind,so if he wanted to he could probably master all their forms of magic.

But that assumes magic is entirely mental. It's possible Perp simply doesn't have the talent for other spheres, at least not to the extent that a real master would. (I don't have a firm position on which is so.)

I believe that Kael has stated that it was Kyorlin who rebelled, not his students. Of course, I guess it would be hard to determine who should be called a rebel when a despot rebels against his system of government and is resisted by his deputies.

Exactly, it's all perspective. Kylorin was rebeling against the corrupt society he had allowed to come into place, and his students in turned rebeled against their master when he ordered them not to use their powers at the expense of others. They were being true to what they were taught, but not to what their teacher now wanted of them.

It is pretty clear that the civilizations in FfH did all not start at the beginning of the age. I tend to prefer the depth the story takes on when you spread the empires out over much longer periods, so some have almost fallen by the time others arise. I was thinking that the Balseraphs would be one of the younger civilizations (although the civilization within Perpentach's mind is the oldest), albeit not so young as the Kuriotates or the Sidar.

True, but to give the agency to the player, I tend to write the Age of Rebirth as the great oppurtunity of all the civs. For some it has the potential to be a renassance, for others their creation, but for all of them, save two or three obvious exceptions, it is seen as their great chance.
Earth's history had ages, but those are after the fact classifications by historians, rather than clear cut deliniations that one would have noticed at the time. In Erebus the Age of Ice began, and again late ended, within a noticable span of time. So all the nations have a new beginning when the snow thaws, and they know it. (Except, again, for the Illians and Doviello, who ruled the winter years, and perhaps the Amurites, who may see their greatest days as behind them.)

I notice, Nikis, that you didn't answer my SECOND unrelated question...

I like to make maps And I like talking about the Bannor and such...

 

[Atnanor]

But that assumes magic is entirely mental. It's possible Perp simply doesn't have the talent for other spheres, at least not to the extent that a real master would. (I don't have a firm position on which is so.)

Perhaps all it requires is the minds of these magical geniuses, however Perp of course doesn't control these minds with an iron grip, or he wouldn't be so, you know, crazy. They could be running wild all around in his mind refusing Perp anything and making it so that if he could control these minds and exploit them, he would become powerful beyond compare, like a god.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Slightly Off Topic, But how does Magic work
(following allong with what Nikis Saying about magic being mental, or not...)

What does it take to be a sorceror... do you need some innate skill, or can anyone put time and effort into being a mage, or a combination of the two?

 

[Kael]

Slightly Off Topic, But how does Magic work
(following allong with what Nikis Saying about magic being mental, or not...)

What does it take to be a sorceror... do you need some innate skill, or can anyone put time and effort into being a mage, or a combination of the two?

It is an innate skill. In the D&D games there was an attribute called Talent that controlled the maximum level spell that character could cast and gave some bonuses to spell casting at high levels.

You can see evidence of this in the mod through the children of Kylorin mechanic (those children have a greater ability for magic) in AoI. I also like to think that the adepts that happen to gain xp faster (due to better die rolls) are more talented.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

so it's pure luck that Kylorin had the talent before ceridwen taught him how to use it?

if Kylorin hadn't had it, Alot might not have happened, then

 

[orangelex44]

She could've simply given it to him. It may not have even existed before then - I know that there was some weak magic usage before Kylorin's time, just some shamanistic stuff, but maybe some of the small stuff (or the religious magics altogether) don't need the inherant ability, just the divine spark. Thus, the ability to do magic would have been given to Kylorin first - and given to his apprentices, too? Or maybe he gave it to them?

Either way, it's obviously inherited, probably a recessive gene, like albinoism.

 

[rusty217]

Either way, it's obviously inherited, probably a recessive gene, like albinoism.

If all the children of Kylorin had the ability to use magic then it would be much more likely to be the dominant gene, especially considering how widely magic is used in the age of rebirth...

 

[orangelex44]

Maybe. On the other hand, that would result in nearly everyone being a mage - I prefer to think the magic increase is due to a general population increase.

Perhaps it's not recessive at all, maybe it's more like hair color - different amounts for different people (Some people are really blonde, some are just light-haired, some brown, etc.) with the tendency toward no magic?

 

[hbar]

What about Govannon then? He is described as teaching beggars to magic up food, but if those beggars had innate talent, you'd think that they would be able to find gainful employment

He can also teach workers to summon skeletons, so it would seem (at least through game mechanics) that magic is available to anyone, but requires training to use.

 

[orangelex44]

Or maybe Kylorin got around a lot, lots of kids.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

that is what is supposed to be happeneing with the Anurites, though... the talent is spreading to more and more of the population...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

My interpretation is that all humanity (and the races descended from humanity) have an innate ability to use magic, but the level of talent varies greatly from individual to individual and family to family. With enough training, anyone could learn at least the most basic spells, although their chances of using more advanced magic are quite slim. The fact that the Amurites are mostly descended from Kyorlin means that the level of innate talent is higher than average, so the average Amurite has the potential to be a sub-par mage instead of sub-par adept given enough intensive training with a master.

 

[Darksaber1]

Yeah, that's my opinion. Just about any human/elf/orc/other human decendant can learn to use basic cantrips, but more powerful magic requires more ability. Also that the reason the Amurites are so good at magic is because his long life meant he had kids in every generation, 'till the end of the age of ice.