Question on specialized units

[aelf]

In light of the discussion on Marines, I have a question for which I have found no answers so far. I have been quite clear on how to use Marines for a long time, but not some other specialized proper units (not talking about cruise missilies or helis). The Marine thread mentions people asking about the other specialized units, but God knows where such questions are buried in the rich archive of this forum.

So, to clarify things in one shot, how the hell do you use Longbowmen and Guerillas? There is an article on Paratroopers, but nothing on these units. Don't tell me they are only good when the are no better alternatives (eg. knights, cavalry, infantry). The Partisans of Civ2 could at least fight in unroaded jungles and forests with great mobility, and you get them free when your city is taken, but what's good about the Guerillas of C3C? And should I ever mass produce Longbowmen instead of training knights if I have the choice? Many thanks for your attention.

 

[scoutsout]

Don't tell me they are only good when the are no better alternatives (eg. knights, cavalry, infantry).

Okay, I won't tell you that... but that's how most players around here view these units. The Guerrilla and the TOW Infantry were added to C3C to offer a more complete upgrade path for Archers->Longbows.

These units, like their predecessor (Archer) and follower (TOW Infantry) do have one 'unique' ability - the defensive freeshot. This can increase the survival chances of the primary defending unit. Though the defensive freeshot ability can come in handy, it's not really powerful enough to design a campaign around it.

The longbow and guerrilla are normally used when you don't have the resources to build the better unit. (Knight v. Longbow is not really a fair comparison...) Considering the shield cost of the 4/2 Medieval Infantry (40s) and the 4/1 Longbow (40s) and most human players will favor the MDI (which is available sooner anyway). The same goes for the choice between Infantry and Guerrillas (same shield cost). I might build a few for the defensive freeshot to garrison a town in a salient or stick a couple in garrisons on remote islands...but for the most part I build the better unit. Though the TOW Infantry is a stout defender in its own right, most human players acquire these through upgrades, not by building them.

I do remember one personal epic game at emperor in which I conquered two neighboring civs and still did not have iron. I even had saltpeter, but no iron. I raised a funny looking "poor man's army" of trebuchets, musketmen, and longbows; then went after the dutch. Even the Swiss Mercenary doesn't do so well against longbowmen when he's been redlined by a stack of trebuchets.

Again, this is nothing more than a "poor man's army". This honestly is the best large-scale use of these units, and this is why you haven't seen articles written about these units. The tactical concepts of a "poor man's army" are the same, regardless of the age.

Sorry to disappoint if you were hoping for some brilliant insight in using these units... but I hope this helps.

 

[AlanH]

Hey, Scout! Good to see you back.

Are you going to take your coat off, or are you just visiting?

 

[scoutsout]

@AlanH: Hello to you too sir! It's good to be back.

And yes, I'm sticking around. Last December I took a job about 100 miles from my home, and the commute was killing me... plus I was focusing on starting a career in a somewhat different field.

But things are settling down of late. I'm spending a few nights each week in the other city, and I'm now set up to Civ up there. So I'll be around. I doubt I'll have time for a xOTM in the near future... but I really have missed SGs. Lately I've had some fun threadjacking in Brother Bede's emperor/spaceshot/training game, and I'm lurking a few others.

I probably should've put this in a PM... but I don't see anything here that Thunderfall would object to all that much. And I'm feeling lazy today. (Got the day off.)

 

[aelf]

I see. I guess that's pretty much what I expected. Thanks for your answer. I am in the middle of a Demi-god game where I started off with no resources whatsoever. Raising a rabble army of longbowmen and a few trebuchets, I only got 2 luxuries and am still one tile short of iron. Saltpeter is no where in sight. I am literally poor and to buy techs I had to disband half of my hoplites. Sigh. Looks like the game's pretty much lost.

 

[gmaharriet]

I even had saltpeter, but no iron. I raised a funny looking "poor man's army" of trebuchets, musketmen, and longbows; then went after the dutch. Even the Swiss Mercenary doesn't do so well against longbowmen when he's been redlined by a stack of trebuchets.

That's very good info. I so often abandon a game if I lack iron and don't know what might work for a "poor man's army". There isn't a lot of discussion on LB's and it's hard to use a unit you don't really understand, but I'm trying to expand my range of playing options. Thanks!

 

[scoutsout]

@aelf: Don't feel bad about struggling at Demi-God, that's a tough level - especially with the resource vagaries built into C3C. If you're playing at that level, you are probably a better player than most who have a single digit post count here. (Though one more post gets you to double-digits.)

Greeks would make a good candidate for the poor man's army... since the Hoplite is such a good defender and you don't need resources to build them. I can think of only a few that would be in the same league on that count.

@gmaharriet: Glad to hear you're expanding your options. Options can be powerful for the human player.

 

[aelf]

Haha. Thanks. I've been frequenting this place for a while now. I guess I just don't have much to say.

Well, that game progressed quite a bit, and I was able to significantly expand my empire pitting my knights against Byzantine cavalry with the help of Carthagians, as well as other civs who happen to be at war with Theodora. Eventually I had iron, coal, saltpeter and oil within my republic and was trading horses and gpt for tech. But I was so far behind that the Koreans were already in the modern age while I didn't even have Replacable Parts. I was hoping to catch up in the industrial age and maybe barely reach Fission first to win a diplomatic victory, but I guess the game's toast now

 

[Son_Of_Dido]

And should I ever mass produce Longbowmen instead of training knights if I have the choice? Many thanks for your attention.

Yeah. If you're The Vikings.

[but then, those aren't really Longbowmen, are they? ]

 

[Kraznaya]

Yeah, but they wouldn't really be longbowmen, would they?

 

[aelf]

Of course if you're Vikings you should build Berserks!

But it is very sad that I find that the Vikings tend to lose steam after the happy period of raiding with them and get left behind.

 

[Virtual Alex]

Longbowmen have an attack of 4, which is the highest attack value of thier time, until Cavs. So they are perfectly legitimate to build. 4/1 LB and a 4/2 MDI are pretty much the same, since the only number that counts is the attack. If you travel in a group of defensive and offensive units, like Musketmen/MDI or Musketmen/LB than the LB is actually a much better choice, because they help the musketman defend with thier free shot. All these units (LB and MDI) have the crappy upgrade path to geurillas, so "investing" in MDI isn't any better than longbows. As a matter of fact, longbows are much more useful after the age of cavalry arrives. Because keeping the odd longbow in towns, or hilltops will allows them free shots, which are always good. MDI just sit around uselessly, maybe on occasion picking off the odd Cav, but a LB can do the same thing.

Unfortunatly I cannot say anything good about the guerilla at all. Totally a throw away unit. It's defensive bombard is useful for cavalry, but not useful enough to even come close to competing with the 10 defense of infantry. There is never a case when you would actually build a guerilla vs an infantry.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Unless you don't have rubber, of course.

 

[Takfloyd]

Which is stupid. The guerilla should really have 7 in attack and defense. Would at least make them worth a build. Or they could be hidden nationality, or extra good in jungles and on mountains.