Question: Why do Americans consider FDR to be "one of the greatest U.S. Presidents"?

For now though, the crops are destroyed for a slightly different reason: subsidies. The government will pay farmers a certain price for their produce, and will buy the amount the farmers are willing to sell. So, farmers will not sell on the market if the subsidy price is higher than market price, bringing costs up, and giving the government a huge surplus that's hard to get rid of, and they need to get rid of them without driving prices down. So, they destroy them. And worse, this causes the consumer to feel the pain of artificially high prices induced by subsidies. And, such subsidies were started by FDR's massive government intervention in the agriculture business.

Such is the reason why American sugar was about 500% more expensive than the rest of the world for most of the 1900s.

Well, FDR started it, but the Senate continued it. By "the Senate continued it" I mean that the farm states have the same representation as mostly urban states even though the urban states have a larger population. There is plenty of blame to go around when it comes to farm subsidies.

My problems with FDR are mainly WWII related (although I am not a fan of his economic policies). The internment of Japanese-American citizens (the key word here) due to a lame excuse concocted by some general is a terrible page in American history. It should be noted in this act that the state with the most Japanese-Americans, Hawaii, did not intern theirs because the they were too important to the economy. This shows the overt racism of this policy since the only state attacked by Japan did not intern its population, while the other western states did. My other problem is the fact that he ran for a fourth term rather than give an endorsement to a worthy successor; his actions during the fourth term show that he was not in the best shape medically and his successor, Harry Truman, ended up not knowing much about foreign affairs.
 
In order to raise food prices so that farmers could have more money, he told the Department of Agriculture to deliberately destroy crops to raise food prices. Obviously, not a good idea in a Depression. To this day, this is practiced, destroying perfectly good crops such as

Okay, a bad policy. However, do you have statistics on the overall quantity of food supplies? I believe that the starvation was probably the result of economic disruption (no jobs, no money to buy food etc) and not exactly the lack of supplies. Also, during FDRs time, agriculture and its practitioners were very different. So it's not exactly fair to blame FDR for the modern regime of agricultural subsidies which impoverish the third world and hurts the consumer.
 
Well I used to think FDR was swell, until I read more into it- in particular I feel sorry for Hoover, a very successful and well regarded man, but lambasted by the end of his presidency for being in power while the Crash took place and trying to alleviate the problems of the Great Depression while still being constitutional (and the whole prohibition fiasco, but that's beside the point)

Then again, I'm always suspicious of people who are too popular
 
It just bugs me.

I mean, guy had no respect for law and was breaking it regularly during his presidency.

:confused: What? His only instance of 'breaking the law' was to convince Congress to pass reforms that were later struck down as unconstitutional due to violation of Congress's commerce clause.
He created economic system similar to fascist ones. He did everything he could to push USA into WW2 - against the will of American public.

How was the alphabet soup/New Deal fascist? Probably socialist, maybe communist, but fascist?! Also, while Americans were isolationist during the 30's, isolationism reached a peak in '37, after which it fell due to events in Europe. Specifically, German demands in Europe regarding Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, etc annoyed Americans, and German threats to shipping didn't help their image much either.

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Seriously?[/QUOTE]

I could ask you the same thing.
 
How was the alphabet soup/New Deal fascist? Probably socialist, maybe communist, but fascist?!

It is only fascist because Hitler had the same Keynesian style policies. In fact, Keynes got his ideas from watching Hitler's economic policies.

IMO, throwing around labels such as "socialist" or "fascist" about FDR detracts from discussing the merits and dismerits of his policies.
 
Exactly the thought I had about this crazy thread.

What is so crazy about this thread? The fact that it is questioning the fact that everybody knows? That Roosevelt was the GREASTEST PRESIDENT EVER (apart from Lincoln) and as unquestionable as a demi-God?

Believe me I'm no Republican by any measure of an elephant- I just have an irritating tendency to question "great men"

Yes it's going in a questionable direction by implying that Roosevelt was a commu-nazi- but were his steps a little too radical for the bastion of Capitalism and free Market? Did he bring America out of the Great Depression or did WW2?

And lets not forget the people of Poland and Eastern Europe who, thanks to his perception of Churchill as a warmongering Imperialist, disregarded the orginal point of the Second World War- Polish Independence- and agreed at Yalta to partition Europe, On the conidtion that Stalin would allow free elections in the newly gained territories which he couldn't possibly believe unless he was a simpleton- and I'm sure he wasn't.

Damn the "Great Man" school of history
 
:confused: What? His only instance of 'breaking the law' was to convince Congress to pass reforms that were later struck down as unconstitutional due to violation of Congress's commerce clause.
I started this tread just after reading paper on Roosevelts gold confiscation, and there was a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of breaking the law, US Constitution rules etc etc during first weeks of his presidency
How was the alphabet soup/New Deal fascist? Probably socialist, maybe communist, but fascist?!
no other word better describes direction US economy was heading during FDR presidency (yes, thats New Deal), US society and political life also moved closer to fascist model but not that much
disclaimer: I realise that people today define fascism as ideology of concentration camps, but thats just not (all of) it
Also, while Americans were isolationist during the 30's, isolationism reached a peak in '37, after which it fell due to events in Europe.
situation in Europe had very very little to do with that, Pearl Harbour did
Specifically, German demands in Europe regarding Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, etc annoyed Americans, and German threats to shipping didn't help their image much either.
like I said
I could ask you the same thing.
 
Well I used to think FDR was swell, until I read more into it- in particular I feel sorry for Hoover, a very successful and well regarded man, but lambasted by the end of his presidency for being in power while the Crash took place and trying to alleviate the problems of the Great Depression while still being constitutional (and the whole prohibition fiasco, but that's beside the point)

Hoover's measures to fix the Depression were entirely ineffectual and out of touch with the problems of the common people, if I remember correctly. Trickle down economics with the Reconstruction Finance Corporation didn't work then and it does not work now.

He was a good man, but the bad rap came from the dispersal of the Bonus Army and him being the main cause of the Depression. He certainly shoulders fair blame for not stemming the tide and in some cases making it worse (Smoot-Hawley Tariff was so insanely dumb it boggles the mind).

As for FDR, any respect I have for him is severely diminished by the whole internment of 100,000+ of his own countrymen for very flimsy "national security" reasons. Not even J. Edgar Hoover was convinced in any fashion that there was a real security threat from the presence of Japanese-Americans on the west coast.
 
I started this tread just after reading paper on Roosevelts gold confiscation, and there was a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of breaking the law, US Constitution rules etc etc during first weeks of his presidency

Don't forget the 1934 National Firearms Act.
 
Honestly: I am not so familiar with FDR, so I won't claim anything I write here is correct. However, I saw a BBC production about Churchill and his politics during WW2. That show stated that Churchill almost got mad because he tried to convince FDR to enter WW2 without success for a long time. According to that show that was because FDR simply didn't want to enter the war. That he supported the British by some laws was only to get the British satisfied. That he finally entered the war was only because of Pearl Harbour. As I said I don't know if this is correct, but if it is, then he wouldn't be a great leader, I say. Because the war would have ended much earlier if USA would have joined it earlier. This would have saved lives, at least more then the nuclear bombs. I also can't imagine that it is a reason to not join a war only because the population doesn't wants to. FDR would have been president till the end of his period, no matter wht people think. And once the US joined war they would fight it till the very end. And there is still the tool called propaganda. It already was used in the US, don't you think they could have used it to justify the war as well? Don't say that doesn't work against Americans. They call Obama a communist and people buy it. They fake "proofs" to start a war against Iraq and it works. Don't you guys think they could have done the same during WW2? As I said I am not really familiar with FDR, just repeating what the show said...
 
I also can't imagine that it is a reason to not join a war only because the population doesn't wants to. FDR would have been president till the end of his period, no matter wht people think.

The President is NOT a dictator. Hell, he doesn't even officialize a declaration of war. Really, the only reason to join a war is because the population wants to, righteous cause or not.

Good luck convincing the American people that it's worth their while to throw away American lives in Europe's problems. Especially since full sympathy did not lay on the Allied side.
 
In order to raise food prices so that farmers could have more money, he told the Department of Agriculture to deliberately destroy crops to raise food prices. Obviously, not a good idea in a Depression. To this day, this is practiced, destroying perfectly good crops such as:

50 million lemons
100 million pounds of raisins
1 billion oranges
(1980s, no idea how much now)

No, he didn't, although I think that's done in Europe. What the government did was to
pay farmers to not grow crops in order to raise agricultural
commodity prices. I know this because these policies were still in effect in the 1970s
when I was working in my dad's farm store. One of the things that
helped make soybeans a big crop here was the fact that in the 1930s no one
grew them, so they were'nt regulated like other crops.

BTW, how about citing some evidence that this actually caused Americans
to starve? In fact the opposite happened, by keeping farmers on land they
would have abandoned (and therefore produced no food at all) if they
couldn't make a living from it.
 
The President is NOT a dictator. Hell, he doesn't even officialize a declaration of war. Really, the only reason to join a war is because the population wants to, righteous cause or not.
Hmmm... I'd say that's a weak argument. First of all in practice democrazy is barely more then a dictatorship limited in time. Sure, in a democrazy power should be divided in executive, legislative and judicative, but in reality this doesn't work as it should in theory. I can remember that there was a high judge that got his job, because Bush wanted so. And there is still corruption. I know that Hungary isn't America, but I don't think things work much better in the US. So, take a look what's going on in Hungary: there are only very few people supporting the current pm now. There were demonstrations against him because he lied just before the elections (and thus got his power in a non-legitim way in my opinion). He lead Hungary into it's ruin, man, we are almost bankrupt! Almost everything he did since the last two years he did without support of the poplation. Normally a pm would give up his job to make it possible that someone else can try his luck. Not so in Hungary. He doesn't give up and the sad is that nobody can force him to (except by a revolution of course, but this is not an everyday method). Do you really think this can't happen in the US? If you don't then the danger that it will is even greater. And as I have mentioned in my last post there is still propaganda that can be used to change the opinion of the population. Nobody can honestly say he is immune against propaganda. Advertisement is also propaganda and it works. You don't even notice that it does, but it certainly does. I have also read in a forum, maybe even here at the beginning - I don't know and I am too lazy to check, that FDR showed dictatory characteristics. As far as I remember this was written by an American.
Just another question: did Bush have the support of the american population when he started the iraq war? If not, then this is an example for a president starting a war against the will of the population. If yes, then it shows how you have been manipulated by propaganda. Nowadays it's quite sure that Saddam had no such evil weapons, therefor it was unnecessary to start that war. A secret service then the one of the US should have been able to determine whether Saddam has those weapons or not. I'd say it's almost clear that Bush faked those "proofs". All you have reached is destabilizing the region. Now, do you think people were different in this point 70 years ago? Hmmm... I guess you won't be convinced by what I say since you are from Texas, but who knows? Maybe I have a wrong picture of you?

Good luck convincing the American people that it's worth their while to throw away American lives in Europe's problems.
If there are dying millions of people somewhere on earth it's a problem of mankind, not a plain european.
 
Hmmm... I'd say that's a weak argument. First of all in practice democrazy is barely more then a dictatorship limited in time.

Please elaborate. Over the last 250 years, the federal government has gained more power (all three branches) but more people have also been enfranchised and the power of party bosses and powerful corporations has been curbed (in the US at least).

Is democrazy a purposeful typo btw? I'm not entirely sure on the gist of your argument, but I will address your points in an effort to understand.

Sure, in a democrazy power should be divided in executive, legislative and judicative, but in reality this doesn't work as it should in theory. I can remember that there was a high judge that got his job, because Bush wanted so.

Hmm? The President has the power to appoint judges to the Supreme Court, but the Congress has to approve it. Seems like a good check to me! Is that your only example of how checks and balances does not work?

And there is still corruption. I know that Hungary isn't America, but I don't think things work much better in the US. So, take a look what's going on in Hungary: there are only very few people supporting the current pm now. There were demonstrations against him because he lied just before the elections (and thus got his power in a non-legitim way in my opinion). He lead Hungary into it's ruin, man, we are almost bankrupt! Almost everything he did since the last two years he did without support of the poplation. Normally a pm would give up his job to make it possible that someone else can try his luck. Not so in Hungary. He doesn't give up and the sad is that nobody can force him to (except by a revolution of course, but this is not an everyday method). Do you really think this can't happen in the US?

In Hungary, which is not the US, I would hope the Hungarian people would sweep the opposition into power and give them a mandate to reverse the damage of the previous PM. At least, that's the safeguard. It's not perfect, but I think Mr. PM will be out of office sooner in a parliamentary system than he would be in a dictatorship or whatever your offering as an alternative.

In the US, there have been plenty of bad presidents. It's a good thing he doesn't have supreme power! Usually, the opposition party will win the following election.

Do you have a perfect system in mind where we will never have ineffective rulers? Democratic type systems seek to reduce the damage of such individuals, it does not pretend to altogether prevent them :)

If you don't then the danger that it will is even greater. And as I have mentioned in my last post there is still propaganda that can be used to change the opinion of the population. Nobody can honestly say he is immune against propaganda. Advertisement is also propaganda and it works. You don't even notice that it does, but it certainly does. I have also read in a forum, maybe even here at the beginning - I don't know and I am too lazy to check, that FDR showed dictatory characteristics. As far as I remember this was written by an American.

FDR showed dictatorship type qualities, correct, in a time of war and economic strife. I'm no FDR apologist. The measures would have been much worse in a non-democratic system, is my argument.

Propaganda is a great weapon, sure, but in a democratic type system where freedom of the press is sanctified and you can depend on a litany of non-governmental sources...it is diminished in effectiveness.

Just another question: did Bush have the support of the american population when he started the iraq war? If not, then this is an example for a president starting a war against the will of the population. If yes, then it shows how you have been manipulated by propaganda. Nowadays it's quite sure that Saddam had no such evil weapons, therefor it was unnecessary to start that war. A secret service then the one of the US should have been able to determine whether Saddam has those weapons or not. I'd say it's almost clear that Bush faked those "proofs". All you have reached is destabilizing the region. Now, do you think people were different in this point 70 years ago? Hmmm... I guess you won't be convinced by what I say since you are from Texas, but who knows? Maybe I have a wrong picture of you?

Ok, I'll answer your questions in order.

Bush had statistical support for the war amongst the American population, yes. It's definitely not clear that Bush purposefully faked the proofs, so much as his administration warped CIA and British intelligence to suit their own agenda and ideological world view. Also, Saddam was no angel and made it easy to manipulate opinion against him. I'm no Bush sympathizer either.

Btw, support for the war had swung radically the other way less than 2 years in. Some propaganda machine!

70 years ago, American propaganda was more successful in the classic sense since the enemies of Fascism & Communism were well defined and easily seen.

I am from Texas, so what? Don't judge a person based on their location, but their arguments.


If there are dying millions of people somewhere on earth it's a problem of mankind, not a plain european.

Hey, don't look at me. I didn't say I agreed with American opinions pre-1942, I'm just saying that it would be hard to change that sentiment without something like Pearl Harbor happening.
 
I didn't want to say democrazy is bad at all. I don't know any system that is better then democrazy. I don't want to live in a dictatorship! It's just that in practice democrazy is imperfect and leaves room for let's say starting a war against the will of the population.
With "limited dictatorship limited in time" I meant that by electing a person you give someone a lot of power and you can't get rid off him if he turns out to be a bad leader or something. You usually have to accept the policy of the current PM or president.
I don't say that dividing the power into three branches is a bad idea either. All I say is, that this division is in practis less clear then it should be. That's why I mentioned the judge case. If Bush suggests a candidate and Bushs party has the majority in the parliament, then Bushs candidate will probably get the job. The judge then can judge in interest of Bush (corruption). This is one example how the branches can influence each other.
So, in conclusion, if there would be a clever person (I don't mean that in a positive sense) he could outwit the system. This could then allow FDR to start a war without support of the population. However, there is no better solution then democrazy, but we should be aware of this weaknesses to limitate the consequences. You should also think about the problem that if there is such a clever man, how difficult it is to stop him. Who could do that? The US has a decentralized federal system, so who would be responsible for stoping a mad president? Who has enough power? So why should a clever man don't use the room if there is nobody that can stop him?

I am from Texas, so what? Don't judge a person based on their location, but their arguments.
That's not what I wanted to say. Sorry, if it sounded like that. It's just that image that the world has from Texas: it's ful with Republicans. Maybe that's wrong, but if not, then it would be a question of probability that you would disagree with things I said about the iraq war. So, my appologizes.

In conclusion I'd say that it would have been possible that FDR could have started the war against the will of the population if he wanted to. The question is: Did FDR don't want to or did he only thought it to be impossible to start a war against the will of the population? If there would be some reports from people that knew him you could repeat or some entries in a diary or whatever that shows that FDR really wanted to help the British to stop Hitler, that would convince me.
 
They would applaud it. The Constitution is supposed to be adapted to the times; the language is quite vague, and intentionally so.

By amending it, not by having a president who every once in awhile goes "you know what, I think this clause should disappear."
 
Originally Posted By cool3a2: They fake "proofs" to start a war against Iraq and it works. Don't you guys think they could have done the same during WW2? As I said I am not really familiar with FDR, just repeating what the show said...



Pro war propaganda is more successful if going to war is portrayed as revenge for a terrible event that affected a nation's citizens directly.


Even the pro Iraq war propganda was partially about revenge for a terrible event. (i.e. 911)


What terrible event could FDR have blamed on the Axis? Is the stock market crash of 1929 even remotly plausible as a Axis attack?







Originally Posted By cool3a2:If there are dying millions of people somewhere on earth it's a problem of mankind, not a plain european.



But did the American people in the 1930s and 1940s believe that?
 
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