Berzerker
Deity
by disobeying God
still dont change the reason God gave his buddies for kicking them out, God doesn't even mention their disobedience - just wanted to prevent them from living forever
Questions About Adam and Eve
- Thread starter Berzerker
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by disobeying God
still dont change the reason God gave his buddies for kicking them out, God doesn't even mention their disobedience - just wanted to prevent them from living forever
Yes, it was a punishment for disobedience. They were commanded not to eat from the tree of knowledge on pain of death. Before that, they were able to eat from the tree of life and retain immortality. After the ate from the tree of knowledge, they were punished and evicted from paradise as punishment (the on pain of death part for eating from the tree of knowledge), cutting them off from the tree of life/immortality, leading to their eventual deaths.
Genesis 2:16-17 said:
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Had they obedey God, they would have been allowed to eat of the fruit of the tree of life, but since they disobeyed, they were forb idden from eating of this fruit. It is pretty simple, they disobeyed and thus they had to be kicked out. I have already explained this in the Bible thread. You refused to listen then and you are doing again now.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
So VRWCAgent, basically God gave them 2 options:
1. Live forever, but don't understand the difference between being good and sinning
2. Be mortal, but understand the difference between sin and non-sin
But didn't 2. have to happen so that Jesus could later show up and save us? He couldn't have if we didn't understand what sinning was, right?
So didn't Adam and Eve have to get kicked out of the garden? It doesn't seem to me like there was any alternative.
1. Live forever, but don't understand the difference between being good and sinning
2. Be mortal, but understand the difference between sin and non-sin
But didn't 2. have to happen so that Jesus could later show up and save us? He couldn't have if we didn't understand what sinning was, right?
So didn't Adam and Eve have to get kicked out of the garden? It doesn't seem to me like there was any alternative.
Berzerker
Deity
God didn't say they were kicked out for disobedience, God said they were being kicked out so they couldn't partake of the tree of life and live forever.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Because God said so. It was a simple command. There were plenty of other trees around to eat from and only one was forbidden. It should not have been that hard to leave on tree alone.
@VWRCA, but the problem is that rather than knowing good and evil, we are predisposed to only evil.
@VWRCA, but the problem is that rather than knowing good and evil, we are predisposed to only evil.
timtofly
One Day
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I'll admit it, I kinda like humans anyways.
Oh, Hi Perfection! I apologize for forgetting your presence.
God's "buddies" is an interesting term to use. We have satan, and a host of angels to fill that "slot". Unless we go with the Father, Son, and Spirit personality of God. We cannot go with "other gods" because they are human projections and so far humans had no need for such projections. I am pretty sure that satan knows first hand what disobedience is and the difference between good and evil. I think that the angels have such knowledge also, but choosing obedience seems easier for them to do, than mortals, even though a third of them defected with satan. So being like satan or the angels does not fit any more than trying to figure out mortality or immortality as in what kind of death was earned. We are told that human physical immortality comes from eating of the tree of life, which will once again grow in the new heavens and new earth (the collapse and reformation of the next universe).
The Garden was a place of paradise where life was easy and there was the tree that would afford immortality. Why does disobedience have to be mentioned? Every one knows that the physical application of learning what disobedience and the difference between good and evil was the forbidden fruit. It was not a thought that caused human downfall. It was not even seeing how far one could get, ie. touching the fruit that produced results. It was the actual partaking of such knowledge.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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Ah. Yes, Mr Agent. We've been here before, you and I.
But, it's Mr C. Hero who I'd like to answer my question. He does after all claim the whole episode is trivially easy to understand, so I think my question is a reasonable one to ask him.
But, it's Mr C. Hero who I'd like to answer my question. He does after all claim the whole episode is trivially easy to understand, so I think my question is a reasonable one to ask him.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
The only reason why we tend to think of the fruit as an apple is because of a visual pun often employed in religious artwork in areas where the church;s official language was Latin. Malum is Latin for Apple, and is also Latin for Evil. (The length of the first vowel differs, but the re still spelled the same.)
In the Eastern church, it was far more common to present the fruit as a fig, based on the reasoning that the scripture describes the first clothes as being made of fig leaves and the idea that the ashamed humans would have reached for the closest cover. It was also relatively common to prevent is as a pomegranate, drawing a comparison with the myth of Hades and Persephone.
timtofly
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Would you consider Adam and Eve to be feral? I think that it is more than just innocence. Although Edgar Rice Burroughs tried a look in that direction. What if they were put into a perfect environment with tame animals and no decisions to make whatsoever?
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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That's interesting. I'd never considered Adam and Eve might have been feral. Although I've never considered them to be anything more than allegorical figures. If even that.
Of course, since people evolved from earlier versions of themselves, at some stage they must have been feral...
No, no. This is clearly wrong. There's no reason to think that human beings were ever completely isolated. Individuals and human society arose contingently after all. That's the only thing that makes any sense.
Of course, since people evolved from earlier versions of themselves, at some stage they must have been feral...
No, no. This is clearly wrong. There's no reason to think that human beings were ever completely isolated. Individuals and human society arose contingently after all. That's the only thing that makes any sense.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
God doesn't have to explain anything to us.
Isaiah 55:8,9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
He created us and thus we answer to our creator. Just like the code written for a computer does exactly what the programmer says to do, so should we, but we are different, since we are created in his image, and thus he gave us a choice. You don't know love if they are forced to be with you, but you know someone loves when they choose to love you back. God set us free and allowed to show if we love him or not, but unfortunately the first thing we thought of was our own pleasure.
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
