Questions About Adam and Eve

[timtofly]

Added a word.

Does that point out a "false" prophet?

But they weren't immortal, they were and remained mortal. Nor did they die the day they partook, you quoted God saying their death would be that day, not centuries later.

What is the basis for Adam and Eve being mortal?

God did explain why it was forbidden, their eyes would be opened knowing good and evil like God. Thats what the serpent said would happen and thats what God reported to his buddies.

That is the logical outcome of having knowledge of good and evil.

The term used is a plural of god, his buddies were other gods - let us make man in our image

God is a spirit is the closest physical description we have. Most would not call a spirit a physical entity. Therefore God cannot have an image. I apologize if that was not clear in my first post. There is only one God. Even Rashiminos in all hinting has not provided proof of other Gods.

Why does God fear an immortal Adam and Eve? I suspect its the same reason for disrupting humans building the Tower of Babel - for what they'd achieve.

God does not fear anything. He did put the tree in the garden.

Sounds more like a slave plantation, Adam was to work in the Garden, not kick back in a life of leisure.

Where is the proof that Adam had to work?

If Adam and Eve were ignorant about sin then how'd they know that disobedience was sinful?

Who said Adam knew? All Adam needed to know was not to eat. That reasoning is similar to having faith for no other reason than to have faith. We know what disobedience is, but even the act of eating (in disobedience) stands without the disobedience part.

If I gave you a piece of "X" and told you not to eat it, would you eat it? You could eat it to spite me. You could eat it to disobey me. You could eat it because it looked good. You could eat it because it felt good. You could eat it, because your best friend was eating it. You could eat it because you were just curious. There could be lots of reasons why you would eat it. But there is only one reason to not eat it. I told you it would give you knowledge of "X" and you would "X".

 

[warpus]

Bait was in response to "What's the lesson there then?"

I grew up going to Sunday school - learning that the Bible is full of lessons... They're not just stories you read for the special effects I was taught, each page contains lessons, mostly of the moral variety.

Is it so weird to wonder what a particular lesson in this case might be?

 

[Birdjaguar]

God is a spirit is the closest physical description we have. Most would not call a spirit a physical entity. Therefore God cannot have an image. I apologize if that was not clear in my first post. There is only one God. Even Rashiminos in all hinting has not provided proof of other Gods.

To be honest, there isn't really any proof of any god actually existing, let alone many different gods. but if we take a look at the Old Testament, God does forbid the Jews from worshiping any of the other gods. That would seem to lay the foundation that the the God of the OT did have competitors and he knew it.

"10 Commandments: "thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Such a commandment would not be necessary if he was the only god. I've never seen a passage in the OT where god says that no other gods exist, but him. Is there one?

http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-3.htm

 

[timtofly]

When Moses was given the ten commandments, the nations had already established the notions of god's. I don't know too many people who associate Nimrod with Gilgamesh, but Gilgamesh is/was considered a demigod. He was a mighty hunter and king. Nimrod was a might hunter and leader who built what the Bible calls "tower of babel".

The stories became intertwined or were elaborations of the human the Bible called Nimrod. How does one go about removing the fact that all other nations worshipped god's? One can say that Gods existed and God won, or one can say that there is only one true God and all the others are false. God just told Moses that I AM. Why did he not say, there are a bunch of us and we decided to let a group of people leave Egypt and servitude to Egypt's God. During the plagues, the prophets of Egypt "gave up". They did not say "our gods failed us." They said, "This is the finger of God."

Thou shalt have no other gods before me does not prove there were other gods. It can mean that they were not to create any god beside God. The next command says that no images were to be made, seeing as how God does not have an image, humans could make up any image and call it god. In fact the Hebrews constantly did that even after being told not to. According to the story, Moses broke the only thing that was allegedly written by God because the group wanted a tangible representation of a god in the form of a bull and was already worshipping it. The next tablets for the commands were done by Moses himself.

When it comes to humans and religion, one cannot deny the facts that humans have to have a tangible god, they can see, hold, touch, and feel a part of. God does not really fit that description at all. Humans have given God attributes and have tried to personalize him throughout history. God either does not exist, or he exist on his own terms.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

If I gave you a piece of "X" and told you not to eat it, would you eat it? You could eat it to spite me. You could eat it to disobey me. You could eat it because it looked good. You could eat it because it felt good. You could eat it, because your best friend was eating it. You could eat it because you were just curious. There could be lots of reasons why you would eat it. But there is only one reason to not eat it. I told you it would give you knowledge of "X" and you would "X".

Nonsense. If you gave me a piece of grapefruit and told me not to eat it, I wouldn't eat it. Why? Not because you told me that eating it would give me knowledge of anything and I would die, but because I'm allergic to grapefruit.

Similarly, if you gave me a dish of asparagus and told me not to eat it, the reason I wouldn't eat it isn't because you managed to scare me with some tale of knowledge and death. The reason I wouldn't eat it is because to me, asparagus smells and tastes disgusting, revolting, vile, and many other similar adjectives.

 

[timtofly]

Like I said there can be any number of reasons to eat it, but what reason if everything was unknown would you not eat it? If you hade a reason to not eat, then you probably would not eat it. There were no reasons to not eat it, but one. don't eat it. Calling it the knowledge of good and evil and saying that you would die had no previous meaning until after it was eaten, and then it was too late to not eat it. We sorta understand what knowledge of good and evil are and what death is. We do not know that Adam understood one bit. You can call that nonsense, but you have no proof that is was nonsense to Adam.

Eve added we cannot touch it. Now we can surmise that Adam told her not to touch it, since after one touched it, they may also want to eat it. The serpent hinted that if Eve did eat it, they would be gods. The only thing Eve got from that was she would be wise. She had no idea, and more than likely Adam did not either what would happen. It was called knowledge after all, and they did not have it. If they had that knowledge, they probably would have avoided it like you avoid certain things.

 

[classical_hero]

This simply isn't true. I am asking you, and I'm not asking God. It's right there in that post of mine you quoted.

Are you just admitting you don't know? If so, why don't you simply say "I don't know"?

And if you don't know the answer to such a relatively simple question, what else don't you know?

I actually think it a very healthy thing to admit: that you don't know something. But that's not how you come across in general.

I said that only God knows why he made that simple command. Does that not answer you question, or are so simple minded that I have to spell it out? I have answered your question and since you refuse to take my answer, then that is your problem.

To be honest, there isn't really any proof of any god actually existing, let alone many different gods. but if we take a look at the Old Testament, God does forbid the Jews from worshiping any of the other gods. That would seem to lay the foundation that the the God of the OT did have competitors and he knew it.

"10 Commandments: "thou shalt have no other gods before me".

Such a commandment would not be necessary if he was the only god. I've never seen a passage in the OT where god says that no other gods exist, but him. Is there one?

http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-3.htm

God plainly states many times times that he is the one and only God.
Deuteronomy 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him
Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
2 Samuel 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the Lord is God, and that there is none else.
1 Chronicles 17:20 O Lord, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.
Psalm 86:6 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
Isaiah 45:5,6 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:14-22 Thus saith the Lord, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no (other) God.
15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

 

[JollyRoger]

Of course there is no one else. That explains the Garden of Eden voyeurism.

 

[Borachio]

I said that only God knows why he made that simple command. Does that not answer you question, or are so simple minded that I have to spell it out? I have answered your question and since you refuse to take my answer, then that is your problem.

It is certainly true that I'm simple minded. I've never claimed anything else.

But when you say that only God knows, that does imply that you don't, yes? (unless you're claiming to be God) But in that case why don't you ever simply say you don't know? So are you claiming to be God? I don't know. Are you God?

I mean you do claim an awful lot of knowledge for yourself generally, don't you?

You do claim to know that all the secrets of history are contained in your little black book, don't you?

But if you don't know why God made such a simple command as don't eat the fruit of that tree, how do you know that all the secrets of history are contained in your little black book?

(Hilarious thread, btw.)

 

[Rashiminos]

I grew up going to Sunday school - learning that the Bible is full of lessons... They're not just stories you read for the special effects I was taught, each page contains lessons, mostly of the moral variety.

Is it so weird to wonder what a particular lesson in this case might be?

So did I, but I have since come to realize that multiple interpretations are being expressed simultaneously within the same words, with not all of them being mutually congruent with each other.

It's not at all weird to wonder what lessons might be behind a particular story, and who is seeking to teach (to learn ) which lessons from which passages.

So when I say bait, it's a lesson about baiting in an abstract sense that's being touched upon in the situation presented. Another would be taking candy from strangers. Yet another would be accepting a sketchy deal.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This my last post here in this thread.

I think I am able to make a pretty decent argument against this statement.

 

[Rashiminos]

Does that point out a "false" prophet?

It posits something of the nature of the knowledge contained within the "fruit."

Even Rashiminos in all hinting has not provided proof of other Gods.

Proofs are rather laborious and require no small amount of attention to what premises we start from, and the myriad of steps that have to be climbed along the way. If we don't start from the same premises it's already a beleaguered cause. With or without those considerations, where's your proof that there's only one god?

Where is the proof that Adam had to work?

Adam was tasked with naming all of the animals. Ask a biologist how simple that is.

(QED)

Who said Adam knew?

Being told not to eat X may have been a clue.

If I gave you a piece of "X" and told you not to eat it, would you eat it? You could eat it to spite me. You could eat it to disobey me. You could eat it because it looked good. You could eat it because it felt good. You could eat it, because your best friend was eating it. You could eat it because you were just curious. There could be lots of reasons why you would eat it. But there is only one reason to not eat it. I told you it would give you knowledge of "X" and you would "X".

I think Valka covered that.

seeing as how God does not have an image, humans could make up any image and call it god.

But does God have an imagination?

When it comes to humans and religion, one cannot deny the facts that humans have to have a tangible god,

I'm sure one can.

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I said that only God knows why he made that simple command. Does that not answer you question, or are so simple minded that I have to spell it out?

The serpent asks, "is that right? " I'm not sure what purpose the "simple-minded" remark serves here.

God plainly states many times times that he is the one and only God.

'LORD God' says many things.

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You do claim to know that all the secrets of history are contained in your little black book, don't you?

Or in some mythical fruit.

 

[Leoreth]

I think I am able to make a pretty decent argument against this statement.

Don't, post a link instead.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, I'd prefer he post than keep that promise... the trick is to not make the promise in the first place.

@VWRCA, but the problem is that rather than knowing good and evil, we are predisposed to only evil.

No, that's not true. We're capable of both good and evil and predisposed to either. The problem is that we're not perfectly good, which is a very different thing.

 

[classical_hero]

The only way a person can be righteous before God is by the blood of Jesus Christ. Even our "best" works are simply not enough and in fact God compares them to menstrual rags in Isaiah 64:6. That is the idea behind filthy rags in that passage. We can never measure up to God.

 

[timtofly]

It posits something of the nature of the knowledge contained within the "fruit."

Knowledge starts somewhere. I suppose lying about it may work in certain circumstances. I don't think one needs an explanation though, especially if one is just lying about it.

Proofs are rather laborious and require no small amount of attention to what premises we start from, and the myriad of steps that have to be climbed along the way. If we don't start from the same premises it's already a beleaguered cause. With or without those considerations, where's your proof that there's only one god?

If God alone is, then what else exist? Now if there is no imagination, I am sure we can figure something out eventually.

Adam was tasked with naming all of the animals. Ask a biologist how simple that is.

At least a slave can eat the fruits of their work. You may have a point there.

Being told not to eat X may have been a clue.

I am clueless why every one knows what actually happened.

I think Valka covered that.

We are sticking with the idea that Adam actually knew what he was getting into and did it any way? I thought everything was pre-determined and Adam had no choice.

But does God have an imagination?

Does any rational entity have an imagination? Perhaps a better quandary would be, can God control his thoughts? If God knows everything and everything consist within God, does God have any control? If God has an imagination, can he stop it from happening?

I'm sure one can.

Then one still has a choice.

 

[El_Machinae]

No, that's not true. We're capable of both good and evil and predisposed to either. The problem is that we're not perfectly good, which is a very different thing.

The only way a person can be righteous before God is by the blood of Jesus Christ. Even our "best" works are simply not enough and in fact God compares them to menstrual rags in Isaiah 64:6. That is the idea behind filthy rags in that passage. We can never measure up to God.

Right, but that statement is basically the same thing that I said. The problem is that we're not perfectly good, not that we are only evil. We're certainly predisposed to both good and evil, we're not 'only corrupt' but we're certainly imperfect.

 

[JollyRoger]

The only way a person can be righteous before God is by the blood of Jesus Christ. Even our "best" works are simply not enough and in fact God compares them to menstrual rags in Isaiah 64:6. That is the idea behind filthy rags in that passage. We can never measure up to God.

Yeah, in other verses God dictates his fantasy to a prophet where his chosen people are seen as a whore deserving of gang rape. God's perversions came a long way since the Garden of Eden voyeurism.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Yeah, in other verses God dictates his fantasy to a prophet where his chosen people are seen as a whore deserving of gang rape. God's perversions came a long way since the Garden of Eden voyeurism.

Could you please rephrase this I am not sure I quite understand.

I think one must be aware of the fact that people at that time were comparing by our standards pretty barbaric. So was their religion...

 

[Borachio]

Rape is still quite popular widespread, I've heard.