Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.

[warpus]

1. As I said, to born circumcised is a sign of a high spiritual personality (high soul).
Not all people are so high.
2. For the same reason that Abraham wasn't born circumcised despite being a great righteous person.
The very idea of a commandment implies that it is supposed to be done by the PERSON, not given as a GIFT from Above.
Therefore, Abraham had to personally circumcise himself and go through the pains the followed, even though he could very well be BORN circumcised.
But G-d told him specifically to do it himself, so that Abraham could MERIT a great spiritual reward for this deed.
3. Therefore, Jews are still born uncircumcised - and do the action themselves, to be the ones that reach out to G-d, not be fed the connection for free.

Sure, but my question revolves around this:

Some people are born without foreskin, right? This happens because God views them to be special or holy in some way, right? So then you'd expect a high percentage of those born without foreskin to be Jewish, right?

But that isn't the case. How come?

 

[civ2]

warpus
Well, I'd say that being (potentially) holy is one thing and having a random mutation is another.
And not necessarily contradicting each other - or not.
I mean, it's a sign of POSSIBLE holiness, not necessarily a 100% one.
In other words, such PHYSICAL events can not be taken as 100% signs for SPIRITUAL things.
As I so like to say: "Maybe yes, maybe not".
So:
1. Not all holy men are born this way.
2. Not all born this way are holy.
3. Not all holy men are Jewish, though this requires explanation.
The level of holiness, attainable by Jews and non-Jews is different, though NOT implying any inferiority on PERSONAL level.
You don't expect an ant to grow as big as an elephant.
But still there are HUGE ants and SMALL elephants.
And any non-Jew has a full ability to get a full connection to G-d, but on his level.
Don't forget, from G-d's point of view - we're all nothing.
We only differ when we take OURSELVES into account.

 

[timtofly]

Do you think that the Apostles conspired to make Jesus a Moshiach?

 

[civ2]

timtofly
Not sure what you mean by that.
Also, the way Christians view him, is way different from what Jews are awaiting in Moshiach.
And I'm talking about the concept of Moshiach itself, not mentioning all that weird (and wrong) stuff that got attached to the word Messiah.

 

[timtofly]

timtofly
Not sure what you mean by that.
Also, the way Christians view him, is way different from what Jews are awaiting in Moshiach.
And I'm talking about the concept of Moshiach itself, not mentioning all that weird (and wrong) stuff that got attached to the word Messiah.

I asked the question after reading this page.

I am under the assumption that reading the New Testament without commentary is similiar to emersing oneself in their shoes, but I may be wrong.

 

[civ2]

timtofly
I see no connection between your link and your question...
Also, your last question is not to me, cause I'm not gonna read it anyways.

 

[laksy]

It's pretty rare to be born without foreskin, it is considered a rare birth defect, some people will even say it doesn't happen. But, circumcision is part of Jewish culture. You have to have both, just because someone is circumcised doesn't make them Jewish.

Moderator Action: Link removed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[civ2]

laksy
Well, I know it's rare - makes total sense.
If something is meant to be that way - it usually should.
And yeah, circumcision is required to BECOME Jewish (for converts), but not required to STAY/BE Jewish (for born Jews).
On the other hand, circumcision itself does NOTHING - as we have half of America and most of Middle East being "deforeskined".

 

[timtofly]

Ok retry:

Would Jesus have been considered Moshiach (for His generation), up until the last 4 days of His life? Does the New Testament "paint" Him that way, or did His life actually exist totally different? Any answer you give will not be considered offensive. I am just curious, unless that part of history is unfamiliar to you, then you can just ignore the question altogether. If you do not reply, then case closed.

The statement about the NT was not a question. Actually I am looking for an answer devoid of any added commentary (on the Christian side) that you might assume what a Christian understands about the concept. (any commentary from the Jewish perspective is welcome) The link that I gave seems to clearly point out what the Jews expect in the Moshiach. Unless you want to go into detail a simple yes or no will suffice. I just wanted your educated honest opinion. If this is not a discussion that you want to continue, then I will not bring it up again.

PS, yes I may mention Daniel, if the conversation progresses.

 

[warpus]

Don't forget, from G-d's point of view - we're all nothing.

How do you mean?

Aren't we his beloved children?

 

[warpus]

Oh yeah, I have another question: When this Moshiach arrives, is it going to be a man? Could it be a woman?

What is he/she going to do when he/she gets here?

 

[timtofly]

Oh yeah, I have another question: When this Moshiach arrives, is it going to be a man? Could it be a woman?

What is he/she going to do when he/she gets here?

Male/King.

Spoiler :

The ultimate monarchy.

 

[civ2]

timtofly
To begin with...
So, even if (IF, not sure) you're asking about the "possible" Moshiach, which we do have in every generation (although we're still waiting for the DEFINITE one, the ONLY and the LAST one) - still, this guy doesn't fit in.
And I don't think I should (cause I like you personally and don't wanna throw in rude things) elaborate on the RESULTS that came because of him.
You know them well anyways.
Sorry.
I'm open to any more questions anyways, you're welcome to ask.
(But on this topic there isn't much I could say without being rude or openly aggressive...)

warpus
1. Thanks timtofly for answering, that's quite enough, I think.
2. I meant that COMPARED to G-d, we're all nothing.
Doesn't mean He doesn't love us.
Actually, I kinda forgot what I meant there...
Sorry.

 

[warpus]

Couldn't it be a Queen? WHy not, is there a verse that says that he will be a man?

And what will he do?

I know that the Muslims believe that a demon are going to come back one day and that Jesus is going to have to come back and fight him. (I am not sure if this is 100% accurate but that's what a muslim cabbie told me once)

So it seems like the idea of a saviour coming back is a common thread in the 3 abrahamic religions.. but I wonder what the specifics of the Jewish beliefs are?

What is the Moshiach going to do when he gets here?

 

[civ2]

A very good book on this topic: "As a New Day Breaks".
You should leaf through other pages (on the left) too.
I'm sure, it'll give you a LOT of new/nice info.
Good luck!

PS.
The full list of books on Moshiach from that site.
There are other topics being discussed too - you can look it up, if you want.

 

[_random_]

What's your perspective on this blog post? and it put things in an interesting new light for me. The author is Christian, but the thesis doesn't seem to contradict Judaism per se. What do you think of it? What's the traditional Jewish interpretation of the sacrifice of Isaac been?

 

[civ2]

Semitic gods (or their priesthoods) tended to demand that you sacrifice your animals, your virginity, and sometimes your children. The worship of YHWH was just one of the religions competing for mind share in ancient Israel; the Jews on the whole didn’t really grasp the concept of monotheism till their return from exile in Babylon.

No further reading is needed...
And you can definitely guess my opinion on this IDIOCY.
Sorry, but even if something else he writes is interesting, I'm not gonna except anything from a guy who writes such things.

As of the event, please ask some more speicific questions, it's too broad a subject to "guess" what you refer to...

 

[_random_]

No further reading is needed...
And you can definitely guess my opinion on this IDIOCY.
Sorry, but even if something else he writes is interesting, I'm not gonna except anything from a guy who writes such things.

That's pretty much scholarly consensus as I understand it, and the Bible is full of the people of Israel succumbing to idol worship. Regardless, his point is that YHWH is establishing Himself to Abraham as different from other gods worshiped in the area. Unlike them, He won't demand that you sacrifice your children. He'll provide sacrifices for you, that they may live. People who interpret it primarily as a show of Abraham's devotion miss the point.

As of the event, please ask some more speicific questions, it's too broad a subject to "guess" what you refer to...

Why did God tell Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? What should we take away from this?

 

[civ2]

random
I'll rather answer your question than start the pointless discussion on how people tend to distort Judaism.
TEXT.
COMMENTARY.
TEXTS IN-DEPTH:
#1
#2
#3
#4
#5
#6
#7
#8
#9
#10
Sorry for bringing so many LINKS - but I couldn't choose just one or two...
When you'll have time and IF you'll have the will, I do suggest to read through them - I'm sure you'll be surprised many times.
Good luck!

 

[Algeroth]

No further reading is needed...
And you can definitely guess my opinion on this IDIOCY.
Sorry, but even if something else he writes is interesting, I'm not gonna except anything from a guy who writes such things.

Question: Do you have any knowledge of archaeological and historical research on beginning of Judaism?