Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.

[timtofly]

The command from G-d was not vengence, it was justice. It was not genocide, nor infanticide, nor even sacrifice. In fact Saul did not even keep the command that G-d gave, but kept back things to sacrifice to G-d. If the sacrifice was keeping the command, why did Saul keep part to offer later sacrifices? Keeping the spoils and even keeping alive humans for later sacrifice was the pagan way. Saul did not obey but tried to paganize G-d's command.

The G-d of the Torah gives life and takes it away. He is a just G-d and also long suffering. However when He proclaims that it is time to remove a nation or group of people, it is time to do so due to justice, not genocide, or plain killing babies. Humans are allowed to believe that G-d is unjust and a baby killer, but you have to look at G-d through the Torah, not cut Him out and humanize Him. One can accept Him as G-d or be disgusted with Him. Occam's Razor and all that.

Humans left to themselves, can either be moral or genocidal. In fact most man-made religions are either live and let live, or they tend to be controlling. G-d in the Torah did command the removal of people who in modern times would be considered barbarian and ruthless, to make way for a more moral group. Even G-d's chosen people could not keep out pagan practices unless, G-d Himself came and babysat them.

It seems a basic historical fact that G-d stopped asking people to do things for Him, when they could not even obey Him in the easy things. I would even like to point out that G-d only asks the Jews as a whole Nation to carry out physical commands of violence. When the tribes were scattered by the Assyrians, those commands stopped. They have never been given since, and if any one says they carry out any such acts in G-d's name they are lying. Abrahamic religions may tend towards violence today, but they are not doing so out of obedience, or even sacrifice, but human selfishness. Only when the Moshiach comes and re-unites the 12 tribes into one nation will G-d again command violence through a human instrument. That will be after almost 3000 years of long suffering towards mankind.

I would also like to point out that Abraham has another son, due to his inability to wait and obey G-d. That son also had 12 tribes, but G-d rejected them. Jacob was the younger of two nations, and was the less honorable one, but the First Born G-d rejected. Lot was selfish and created two nations by his own daughters and G-d had to destroy them. One may choose to look on G-d any way they see fit, but He is still G-d and they are not. Nor will man ever evolve to be any more G-dlike, than they did when satan tempted them to be gods in the very beginning. Knowledge is good, if one knows how to use it properly, or it can destroy, but it will never make one G-d. And if one denies G-d due to human pettiness, they are free to do so. G-d will not take offence, at least not until Moshiach comes.

 

[warpus]

However when He proclaims that it is time to remove a nation or group of people, it is time to do so due to justice, not genocide

That's what genocide is, by definition.

You could argue it's justified genocide, but it'd be pretty hard to argue that it isn't genocide at all.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Keep digging that hole guys. Don't let rock-bottom stop you.

edit: The terrorists who flew their planes into the WTC believed they acted in the name of God, and they did so because they believed that America was out to destroy the Islam way of life. The initiator being the American troops being stationed in the Holy Lands in Saudi Arabia. Now obviously you believe them to be wrong. They may have faith, but that's not what you think God wants. And I know you do not condone terrorism. Not the reason I bring this up. The reason I bring this up is, regardless whether they are wrong in their believes or not, they do have absolute faith in it. They gave their lives for it. They thought they were protecting Islam.

Maybe one might have put it like this: America has MURDERED hundreds of thousands of Muslims. They are out to commit GENOCIDE against the Islamic people. Etc, etc, blah, BLAH, blah.

My question is: explain the difference in mentality.

 

[Agent327]

None of that really promotes child sacrifice. The Jephthah example could be disputed I guess, but given the general attitude toward human sacrifice seen elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures and the fact that Judges records a lot of Israel ignoring morality in rather bizarre ways, I'd say its audience wouldn't take it that way and neither should we.

You seem to miss the point: the mere fact that child sacrifice is repeatedly forbidden is a fair indication of the practice actually existing. You asked for examples, there are plenty.

A similar example is the Commandment ´thou shallt not kill´: there are innumerable examples of this Commandment being broken in the Torah. The fact that something is explicitly forbidden is a clear indication of a practice actually existing.

As of "children" and the stupid attempts to make Ancient Jews LOOK polytheistic.
SIMPLY CRAP.
Sorry but true.
Same goes for the "scientific theory" (used in Civ ) that polytheism was a prerequisite for monotheism.
According to what I consider to be true (Torah), it's wrong logically - cause even the first Man (Adam, who else?) was clearly "monotheistic" (though not Jewish).

Once again you show some severe ignorance about ancient Jewish customs: religous historians generally agree that Judaism originally wasn´t monotheistic at all. What you consider to be true is not quite in agreement with how things actually were. And there was no first man named Adam; if you take the Torah that literally, you are seriously lacking in education. Or do you actually think prehistoric people actually lived for 1,000 years? The average life expectancy in prehistoric times indicates that a man who was able to celebrate his 40th birthday could be considered very lucky indeed.

The easiest example:
If you dismiss that Creation took place LITERALLY in SIX days - you're destroying the very idea of the SEVENTH day of rest as a reminder of the Creation.

Actually it´s said that He ´rested´ on the 7th day. Why? Surely God wasn´t tired? And no, it doesn´t follow that rejection of the universe´s creation in 6 days destroys the idea of the 7th day as a reminder of Creation. The story of creation is obviously a symbolic story: it explains to simple folk how the universe came about to be; and it is a symbolic story, simply because people when these things were written had absolutely no idea of the origin of the universe.

You obviously DIDN'T read what I brought about Amalek...
They were basically the NAZIS of their time.
Actually, worse.
(Nazis weren't a NATION of murderers.)

Your hisorical ´knowledge´is baffling...

1) If Nazi Germany wasn´t collectively a nation of murderers, then why did the West German postwar government publicly accept guilt and initiate a program of ´Wiedergutmachung´ to all the victims of Nazi persecution.

2) Comparing an ancient people to Nazis, based on baby murder, is way beyond ´rational´; not to mention that child sacrifice was a practice among ancient Jews - hence the repeated banning of it. (You don´t have to repeatedly forbid something if it doesn´t occur.)

Just keep in mind that I didn't see too many people of Jewish FAITH here, not just origin.

I´m not surprised if no Jewish person views this particular thread. Oh, and there´s no such thing as Jewish ´origin´: that´s the principle the Nazis used to ascertain if somenone was ´Jewish´.

That's what genocide is, by definition.

You could argue it's justified genocide, but it'd be pretty hard to argue that it isn't genocide at all.

Justified genocide? Again, that´s a typical Nazi argument.

 

[warpus]

Justified genocide? Again, that´s a typical Nazi argument.

I didn't say you could have justified genocide, I said you could argue that that's what it was, if anything. You couldn't argue it wasn't genocide.

 

[civ2]

JEELEN
Like timtofly VERY NICELY said:
You either take G-d FOR GRANTED - or the OPPOSITE.
If you DO - you must take His DIRECT COMMANDS for granted either.
If you DON'T - you're FREE TO BANG YOUR HEAD ON THE WALL - and He WON'T complain.
That's FREE WILL to CHOOSE.
Now, in details:
1. Repeating several prohibitions against harsh stuff (like murder) was, true, to it being common in the PAGAN ENVIRONMENT that Jews lived in.
Actually, more than once it's written: "And you shouldn't copy the ways of your (pagan) NEIGHBORS" or the like.
Jews are told to be BETTER than those nations - and thus to NOT act like them.
Yet, Jews were FAILING this command often.
All this "archeohistorical" JUNK is based on the MISTAKES that Jews did - not the COMMON practice.
It were the SPOILED kings that tried to paganize their nation, not true G-d's followers.
In fact, when truly believing kings did rise to power - first thing they did, was to GET RID of all pagan traces.
In other words, don't judge a nation by its prisons.
I meant it in the modern meaning - if you look at most countries, they have prisons overflowing.
Does it mean that those nations are immoral bastards??? NO!!!
Same goes for Jewish history - when you're LOOKING for JUNK, you'll definitely FIND it.
But it PROVES NOTHING.
2. About "my ignorance".
No, I simply hold G-d's words above those of humans.
3. About repeating prohibitions:
YES, you have to, if your NEIGHBORS are relishing in it!!!
And stop trying to look like an expert in subjects you are NOT.
4. Nazis weren't a NATION.
If you remove Hitler and FEW of his main followers - you're left with NORMAL Germans, who were just following INSTRUCTIONS, rather than doing it on their own wish.
Amalek, on the other hand, attacked as a NATION, not under pressing of its leaders.
But whatever.
5. There are quite few Jews here, but only a very small percent of them are of Orthodox Judaism.
I'm not saying anything against the others - except that they're not the right experts on Torah questions.

 

[Agent327]

I believe in God. But believing in God does not justify not using my Godgiven mental capabilities; in fact, that would be and insult.

As for the rest:

1) the Commandments aren´t meant for pagans, but for Jews; you are ignoring the point that there were made repeated laws against murder and child sacrifice. These would not be necessary if these didn´t occur - among Jews, not pagans.

If you don´t stop to referring to archaeology as being ´junk´, I can no longer take you (or this thread seriously); perhaps you are unaware of Jewish archaeological research and findings. If so, I suggest you look some of it up; it might enlighten you.

You also seem to be unaware that Judaism wasn´t written in stone: it evolved over time, and the Mosaic books are the first examples of this being done.

2) Revering God´s word above those of humans is no excuse for ignoring facts - and the Word of God was written down by humans.

3) You are repeating 1), so I´ll refer to that.

4) You´ve never heard of Nazi Germany? That wasn´t a nation? And as for Amalek: which nation attacks without leaders? In fact, what military force period attacks withoud commands? It seems to me you are using two measures for the same thing: if Germany attacks, common Germans aren´t responsible; if Amalek attacks the whole people are responsible. That´s beyond arbitrary, it´s irrational.

5) I sincerely hope you do not consider yourself an expert on matters Judaic, because so far I´m not too impressed. Seriously. (And I´d use capital letters only if you are talking about YHWH.)

 

[civ2]

JEELEN
To begin with.
Sorry for being rude, but how do you know WHAT I know???
Do you even know me in real life??? No. That's it.
(As a side note, are YOU Jewish??? If not, how come are you stating that you know better than a religious Jew like myself???)
Also, to believe in G-d and to know what He really wants from you, is quite not the same.
As of the rest (numbers are different, sorry):
1. When you live in a place full of thieves, you definitely teach your children "not to steal" with MUCH MORE fervor then if you didn't.
You're mistaking "being affected by immoral neighbors" to "being immoral themselves".
Thus, the repeated warnings: "NOT TO BE LIKE THEM".
Which I mentioned - and is written in plain text.
You just chose to not see it.
2. I'll repeat - I have more trust in (Jewish) SCHOLARS rather than in (even Jewish) SCIENTISTS, for personal ("religious") reasons.
You are the other way around - it's your personal choice which I'm not the one to discuss.
Nor to agree with.
3. The very words of "evolving Judaism" are trying to make it unauthentic and "human".
(As in "not-Divine".)
Thus, my attitude towards it - ignore.
4. Yes, it was written by humans:
Moses (under direct G-d's supervision), Sages (who checked each other for 100 times - just read some Talmud to see it), etc.
Or are you rather referring to it not being Divine?
If so, see 3.
5. Amalek - whatever.
Too complicated and insignificant point to continue the endless argument.
6. Well, definitely MORE than someone who isn't even Jewish, or never really spend time with "those who know better".
7. As of CAPITAL LETTERS.
OK, maybe looks weird - but I don't know of a better way to "stress" words, that is as easy and as obvious.
Do you???
I'm all attention.

 

[civ2]

Ugh... BUMP???

 

[Agent327]

JEELEN
To begin with.
Sorry for being rude, but how do you know WHAT I know???
Do you even know me in real life??? No. That's it.
(As a side note, are YOU Jewish??? If not, how come are you stating that you know better than a religious Jew like myself???)

Yes, I know what you know, from what you repeatedly keep telling. Do I know you in real life? No, nor do I see how that is relevant here. Are you saying that people who don´t know one another in real life can´t discuss a topic?

Also, to believe in G-d and to know what He really wants from you, is quite not the same.

That goes true for everybody. But, as mentioned before, the Ten Commandments seem quite sufficient to me.

As of the rest (numbers are different, sorry):
1. When you live in a place full of thieves, you definitely teach your children "not to steal" with MUCH MORE fervor then if you didn't.
You're mistaking "being affected by immoral neighbors" to "being immoral themselves".
Thus, the repeated warnings: "NOT TO BE LIKE THEM".
Which I mentioned - and is written in plain text.
You just chose to not see it.

That is an assumption on your part. You also seem to assume Jews cannot be thieves, or even be immoral. Which, again, makes such warnings redundant. You seem also to assume that Jews are better than non-Jews. If that were true, Jews would not need such warnings. So such an assumption is pure prejudice.

2. I'll repeat - I have more trust in (Jewish) SCHOLARS rather than in (even Jewish) SCIENTISTS, for personal ("religious") reasons.
You are the other way around - it's your personal choice which I'm not the one to discuss.
Nor to agree with.

Any scholar that ignores science, is a bad scholar. (Example: creationism has no basis in facts, yet people adhere to it over evolution. Yet evolution does not preclude creation, and is based on facts.) Theologians - Judaic or otherwise - that ignore advances in theology are bad scholars, just as any scientist that ignores advances in his/her discipline will at some point be found lacking. You seem to think that theology isn´t a science; to a considerable degree it is. (And you don´t have to take my word for it - Ask a theologian is an established thread on these forums.)

3. The very words of "evolving Judaism" are trying to make it unauthentic and "human".
(As in "not-Divine".)
Thus, my attitude towards it - ignore.

See 2. If you are unaware of how Judaism evolved, your knowledge on Judaism will be impaired. (You are ignoring facts about Judaism.) I do not see how ignoring facts will help people understand more about Judaism.

4. Yes, it was written by humans:
Moses (under direct G-d's supervision), Sages (who checked each other for 100 times - just read some Talmud to see it), etc.
Or are you rather referring to it not being Divine?
If so, see 3.

As mentioned before, Moses did not write any of the ´Books of Moses´. I do not see how ignoring this fact has anything to do with the Torah being ´Divine´ or not.

6. Well, definitely MORE than someone who isn't even Jewish, or never really spend time with "those who know better".

What is your point here? That, because you are Jewish you know more about Judaism than a gentile? You have already proven yourself wrong on this. (See above.)

7. As of CAPITAL LETTERS.
OK, maybe looks weird - but I don't know of a better way to "stress" words, that is as easy and as obvious.
Do you???
I'm all attention.

Yes, I do. (You may also note that while I stressed ´Yes´, that´s completely unnecessary other than for showing how to stress a word.)

 

[_random_]

You seem to miss the point: the mere fact that child sacrifice is repeatedly forbidden is a fair indication of the practice actually existing. You asked for examples, there are plenty.

Fair enough.

 

[civ2]

JEELEN
The problem about "scientific" view on Judaism (the one you are talking about) - is that it doesn't take G-d's words for ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
But - and I mentioned it already - this leads to "de-Divinize" Torah as a whole.
You have only 2 options:
1. It's Divine, thus unchanging, thus no "evolution of religion".
2. It's NOT Divine, thus human-written, thus "evolving".
But you can't have BOTH options at once.
As a JEW - I know what I said now.
Oh, and I found an example of such a "scientist".
The discussion of his book, and how it's not-so-good.
The above example is quite typical - people that don't BELIEVE in Torah, try to "discredit" it.
And then people like YOU come, and take them for granted, simply due to lack of your personal knowledge.
That's what I'm talking about when I say "how are you so sure that you know better than a religious Jew".
Cause I have more authentic sources than you.
But of course YOU think that such guys are trusted, cause "they're scientists".
But this reminds me of a joke:
A guy comes into a restaurant.
He sees a big picture of a bearded Jew with a hat etc. on the wall.
Then, the clean-shaved owner comes out to greet him.
"Who is that on the wall?"
"Oh, that's my father."
Then the guy asks about some details on the KASHRUT of the food there.
"It's all 100% kosher - just look at my father's picture!"
"Well, if it was your FATHER standing by the counter, and YOUR picture hanging on the wall - then I'd have no questions. But now..."
Meaning:
The person is trustworthy in a field where he is personally "active".
A (world famous) mathematician won't be trusted in medical questions, if he's not a doctor himself.
Thus, a "scientist" can't be trusted in "religious" questions, if he's not observant himself.
And most-if-not-all examples of those that "know it better" about Torah (even Jews, or rather, specifically Jews) - are NOT religious or fully observant.
To summarize:
I'll believe in "evolving religion" only when my RABBI will tell me about it.
And he would, if it was true.
You can call me whatever you want - your opinion on myself is totally unimportant, when it comes to the topic of G-d.
Sorry.
OH!
And WHERE did I say anything about "Jews being superior" or something - I do wonder???
Also, you definitely can't read:
I clearly stated that the reason for so many repeated warnings "not to do this and that" - was due to the utterly corrupt environment, not (as you impose) the natural Jewish traits.
I'm stressing the REPETITION of the prohibitions, not themselves!
Everyone has stupid urges - but in a NORMAL society, they get suppressed.
Which is NOT so in a corrupt one.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The problem about "scientific" view on Judaism (the one you are talking about) - is that it doesn't take G-d's words for ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

I can see how you'd think that's a problem. For those of us interested in reality, it's nothing more than logical.

Cause I have more authentic sources than you.
But of course YOU think that such guys are trusted, cause "they're scientists".

No, because they are using science.

Thus, a "scientist" can't be trusted in "religious" questions, if he's not observant himself.

Au contraire. A religious person can't be trusted in religious questions because he has a personal interest, UNLESS .... he used the scientific method to arrive at his or her conclusion, because then it will be verifiable. "Trust me" is not verifiable and thus rightly ignored by the scientific field.

I'll believe in "evolving religion" only when my RABBI will tell me about it.
And he would, if it was true.

Thanks for your admission on your close-mindedness. Refreshing to see such honesty. No amount of facts will convince you, you trust your Rabbi. This is why discussion with you is pointless.

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
Well, you can say it this way.
I'd say that all your "logic" is nothing more than another attempt to "ditch" G-d.
Whatever.
And yes, a Rabbi is more trusted in RELIGIOUS topics than a SECULAR scientist.
Like I said - you wouldn't go to a mathematician even to cure your sore throat (let alone a serious surgery) - not his field.
But you still BELIEVE that secular scientists can (and have rights) to discuss (and DISMISS) G-d.
Well, it's nothing new - "scientists" of the widest spread of "theories" appeared and disappeared (and no one remembers most of them), but WE'RE STILL HERE.
End of pointless discussion, like you said.

Oh, how many times have I said these words...
The adage is so true: You can take the horse to the river - but you CAN'T make it DRINK...
(And now I get the same adage thrown at me.
OPINIONS, opinions, opinions...
WHO CARES about the TRUTH?!?
It's the OPINION that we care about!!!
Like all TRUE scientists.)

 

[useless]

Do you dismiss the Germ theory and theory of gravity as well, because both were pre-posed by scientists?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy
Well, you can say it this way.
I'd say that all your "logic" is nothing more than another attempt to "ditch" G-d.

Yes, you would say that. I can understand that you are very keen to dismiss it.

Whatever.

Compelling argument. I like the gleeful wilful ignorance on display.

And yes, a Rabbi is more trusted in RELIGIOUS topics than a SECULAR scientist.

Again, very deep argument.

Like I said - you wouldn't go to a mathematician even to cure your sore throat (let alone a serious surgery) - not his field.

Question.

When you are ill, do you go to a secular doctor, or do you ask your Rabbi to pray for you to get better?

But you still BELIEVE that secular scientists can (and have rights) to discuss (and DISMISS) G-d.

Rights? My dear boy, they have every right. And when they support their case with data, they have credibility over the Rabbi who has "trust me" as data.

Well, it's nothing new - "scientists" of the widest spread of "theories" appeared and disappeared (and no one remembers most of them), but WE'RE STILL HERE.

Are we still here and enjoying our improved way of living because scientists have found solutions to problems like curing diseases, or are we still here because Rabbis prayed for all those nasty diseases to go away?

End of pointless discussion, like you said.

This is not a discussion.

Oh, how many times have I said these words...
The adage is so true: You can take the horse to the river - but you CAN'T make it DRINK...
(And now I get the same adage thrown at me.
OPINIONS, opinions, opinions...
WHO CARES about the TRUTH?!?
It's the OPINION that we care about!!!
Like all TRUE scientists.)

Projecting again eh?

You wouldn't recognize Science if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord singing 'Science is here again"

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
Stop pretending.
1. My ignorance is my only - and is not a subject to yours.
2. Yes, I'd go to a DOCTOR, cause (like I said and you pretended to ignore) it's HIS field.
Nothing to do with HOW he learned it - but he is the one that knows the PRACTICAL part.
Your beloved SECULAR scientist has zero practical knowledge about religion (let alone Judaism).
Thus my conclusion.
3. Give me any DATA that _I_ personally can TEST - and that has anything to do with "dis/proving" G-d!
So???
Or you will again appeal to the THEORIES - that no one can actually TEST???
4. There is science and there is prejudice.
You're constantly referring to the latter.
Real search for TRUTH doesn't take THEORIES for GRANTED.
And stop the pointless attacking on the "terms" I use - you fully understand (and I explained endless times) what I mean by "theory" - something that _I_ can't test (even given a lab).
This does NOT include computers and cures.
And those don't "prove" UNTESTABLE things like evolution or big bang etc.
But your BELIEF in science is as strong as mine - in G-d.
Well...

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: This thread has proven time and time again that it is unable to contain a sustained civil or productive discussion. And it's devolving yet again. So thread closed. Don't start a duplicate.