jeps
Arcadefire
Yes, but there is a giant debate in Israel right now about speedy-conversions, whether non-Orthodox conversions are allowed (at the moment, no), and all that that DOES affect the right of return.
Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.
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Yes, but there is a giant debate in Israel right now about speedy-conversions, whether non-Orthodox conversions are allowed (at the moment, no), and all that that DOES affect the right of return.
actually it doesn't, currently.
Israel recognizes non-orthodox conversions conducted outside of Israel and the law they are arguing about is also one aimed at conversions within Israel - where currently orthodox conversions are the only recognized form, though not by offcial decree but rather because any religious activity in Israel is left to the official bodies of the religions in question, for judaism that being the two orthodox chief rabbinates. However it is aimed primarily towards those persons that were allowed in by the law of return but are not considered jewish by halakhic standards.
The controversy stems not from attempts at changing the law of return or ruling about non-Israeli conversions but from it being the first time the state of israel was seen as officially describing one branch of judaism as the normative one instead of keeping the status quo that is a non-official recognition of orthodox judaism as the normative one. This has been shelved for now.
Israel recognizes non-orthodox conversions conducted outside of Israel and the law they are arguing about is also one aimed at conversions within Israel - where currently orthodox conversions are the only recognized form, though not by offcial decree but rather because any religious activity in Israel is left to the official bodies of the religions in question, for judaism that being the two orthodox chief rabbinates. However it is aimed primarily towards those persons that were allowed in by the law of return but are not considered jewish by halakhic standards.
The controversy stems not from attempts at changing the law of return or ruling about non-Israeli conversions but from it being the first time the state of israel was seen as officially describing one branch of judaism as the normative one instead of keeping the status quo that is a non-official recognition of orthodox judaism as the normative one. This has been shelved for now.
How easily could one scam the Law of Return? Could a Canadian just claim to have converted? Could a Palestinian?
civ2
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El_Machinae
As far as I know, one can't "claim" such a thing - some serious documents are definitely needed to prove something.
(That would involve a (at least somewhat known) Rabbi, would be checkable etc.)
But I'm not Israeli nor I care about their politics - as stated somewhere above.
So I'd really prefer if such questions wouldn't appear in this topic.
(But somehow I think it's between inevitable and unpreventable.
)
As far as I know, one can't "claim" such a thing - some serious documents are definitely needed to prove something.
(That would involve a (at least somewhat known) Rabbi, would be checkable etc.)
But I'm not Israeli nor I care about their politics - as stated somewhere above.
So I'd really prefer if such questions wouldn't appear in this topic.
(But somehow I think it's between inevitable and unpreventable.
)
Obviously how easy scamming a government beaurocracy is is hard to judge from outside 
However with regards to conversion this always involves some paperwork signed by someone other than the one converting*. It would be a lot easier to just claim descent from jews for the Canadian - the Palestinian would get into trouble there since there might be paper trail regarding the religion of his ancestors due to the way births and ancestry were recorded in ottoman/british mandate/whoever ruled the region he is from afterwards times. In that region there usually was recording of religion in the papertrail.
*Generally a Beit Din (religious court) needs to allow the conversion after hearing the prospective convert - a Beit Din usually consists of 3 persons, in most cases all rabbis - some movements allow two lay persons plus a rabbi. They also sign a certificate to that matter. Some reform congregations allow conversion under the sole supervision of one rabbi - but he/she would also certify that.
Edit: x-post, thats what you get for leaving the computer for a few hours
However with regards to conversion this always involves some paperwork signed by someone other than the one converting*. It would be a lot easier to just claim descent from jews for the Canadian - the Palestinian would get into trouble there since there might be paper trail regarding the religion of his ancestors due to the way births and ancestry were recorded in ottoman/british mandate/whoever ruled the region he is from afterwards times. In that region there usually was recording of religion in the papertrail.
*Generally a Beit Din (religious court) needs to allow the conversion after hearing the prospective convert - a Beit Din usually consists of 3 persons, in most cases all rabbis - some movements allow two lay persons plus a rabbi. They also sign a certificate to that matter. Some reform congregations allow conversion under the sole supervision of one rabbi - but he/she would also certify that.
Edit: x-post, thats what you get for leaving the computer for a few hours
I guess it's a question of how long one would have to study before you could convince a Beit Din. If I were a Palestinian, though, I'd be very tempted to convert just to get migratory rights.
yeah - but once the Beit Din allows the conversion it is an actual conversion - not any kind of deceit
We're discussing how one could get the right to become a citizen of Israel.
QUOTE=ori;9450294]yeah - but once the Beit Din allows the conversion it is an actual conversion - not any kind of deceit[/QUOTE]
I don't really understand. I think one could fool the Beit Din into think you were actually one of the faith. And, upon their approval, one would gain increased rights with regards to Israeli citizenship, etc.
QUOTE=ori;9450294]yeah - but once the Beit Din allows the conversion it is an actual conversion - not any kind of deceit
[/QUOTE]I don't really understand. I think one could fool the Beit Din into think you were actually one of the faith. And, upon their approval, one would gain increased rights with regards to Israeli citizenship, etc.
Just to make this clear: The Law of Return is not a religious thing, conversion is. The Beit Din is part of the conversion process - and actually the actual act of conversion is conducted under its supervision. Once conversion is accomplished the Beit Din will issue a certificate signed by its members stating something along the lines of the person before them has satisfied them that he/she has fulfilled all the necessary requirements for conversion and is thus now a member of the jewish community. This is something a beaurocrat in Israel would look for if someone wanted to enter the country as a convert under the law of return.
civ2
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...AND it takes too much effort and learning to just "fake" the conversion.
It's NOT done in a few days, rather a few years!
(Depends, can be shorter, but not too significantly.)
Also, the Rabbis are NOT blind nor stupid - and an Orthodox conversion can be done ONLY if one wishes to LIVE as a Jew - not just go to Israel or get privilegies.
So faking a conversion is close to not-being-a-case-ever.
Unlike those "Reform" ones which (could and often do) lead to HUGE problems, both for the converts and for other people.
(I mean, there's a BIG question whether one is Jewish or not - which makes a huge difference/problem.)
It's NOT done in a few days, rather a few years!
(Depends, can be shorter, but not too significantly.)
Also, the Rabbis are NOT blind nor stupid - and an Orthodox conversion can be done ONLY if one wishes to LIVE as a Jew - not just go to Israel or get privilegies.
So faking a conversion is close to not-being-a-case-ever.
Unlike those "Reform" ones which (could and often do) lead to HUGE problems, both for the converts and for other people.
(I mean, there's a BIG question whether one is Jewish or not - which makes a huge difference/problem.)
@Maimonides
Thank you for the welcome! I'm at home here.
@jeps
Thank you for understanding the question (!) and for giving such a patiently detailed explanation.
Naturally as yet - as I'm a new boy here - I'm unable to match everything you wrote to my limited observations, but if what you say is true it makes a lot of sense. 
Thank you for the welcome! I'm at home here.
@jeps
Thank you for understanding the question (!) and for giving such a patiently detailed explanation.
Naturally as yet - as I'm a new boy here - I'm unable to match everything you wrote to my limited observations, but if what you say is true it makes a lot of sense.
jeps
Arcadefire
Not very easily. Every Jew to have a Bar Mitzvah is inscribed in a book in Israel. There are SIGNIFICANTLY fewer conversions than Bar Mitzvahs. If they keep track of the first, you can bet they keep track of the latter.
As well, it is QUITE difficult to convert to Judaism. There are tests (that you are informed of and ones you are not) you must pass, as well as things you must say (and hopefully mean). This includes, to every single non-jew hoping to convert for marriage, the question "should your marriage end in divorce, would you remain a jew?". Some rabbis will not even convert people the first time they ask, but instead will wait till the second or third to show their true dedication to conversion.
There is a saying that, translated, means "the convert is more jewish than the jew". This comes from the fact that as Judaism only lets the MOST dedicated convert, and they learn all the rules to be allowed to convert, they follow them more "hardcore" than people who were born as Jews. (This also applies to people who "frum out", conservative or reform jews who decide to go ultra-orthodox).
With this in mind, it would be very easy for them to realize you did not truly convert (COMPLETELY ignoring the debate on whether a convert is Jewish if they did not have an orthodox conversion, involving a mikvah).
HOWEVER, it would be moderately easy for a non-Jew to scam the system of Birthright (which unfortunately went bankrupt in the US, possibly due to this), where a Jew meeting certain travel requirements between the age of 18-25 can get a free trip to Israel including a free tour of many sites, for 2-3 weeks. At one point, the question to test if you were Jewish was "what is your mothers hebrew name". I know a non-Jew who went on the trip, so THAT could be scammed if it hasn't changed.
there are all sorts of reasons why this cannot be the case. For one Judaism doesn't have a centralized system of religious governance, secondly there is no entitiy apart from the divinity that all orthodox much less all jewish congregations would accept as legitimate, thirdly there is no reliable census of jewish persons worldwide available and those that exist vary almost by an order of magnitude at times, if such a database existed that would not be the case, this is not an exhaustive list and I could name quite a few more - but I'd like a source for this first. I am not disputing that some organisations may maintain records of Bar Mitzvahs on a voluntary/congregational/larger organisation level, however this blanket statement is certainly a myth.
jeps
Arcadefire
I am not disputing that some organisations may maintain records of Bar Mitzvahs on a voluntary/congregational/larger organisation level, however this blanket statement is certainly a myth.
True, should add a qualifier of that I only know of it from both attending way too many bar mitzvahs to count, and my own. I have no clue of the location of the supposed book of bar mitzvah, and that it is most likely only affiliated with the Conservative/Masorti movement, but I do know that every bar mitzvah they mentioned being inscribed in the book of bar mitzvah like it was a physical thing.
Maimonides
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Maimonides
One thing though that I tend to strongly disagree:
Why do you keep calling Chassidim a SECT???
There's a big mistake in that.
There are NO sects in Judaism - it's either Torah-based (then it is Jewish) or not.
(There's a much bigger logic to call Reform a "sect" - but even that would be quite incorrect. And anyways, the PEOPLE stay Jewish regardless of which Rabbi they listen to.)
Also your differentiation betweem "mainstream" vs "chassidic" is wrong for the above reason.
It's ALL based on the same Torah, under same rules given to Moshe at Sinai.
What I mean is that Litvish is not a yota more "mainstream" than Chassidic - both ARE.
(Or were you talking about something else - probably even a bigger misconception? Sorry.
Word "sect" implys something (negative) outside the "normative" (up to the level of becoming another religion) - but as I already said, THIS is not such a case.
So such usage implys very negative and wrong understanding by outsiders.
Please try not to use it in such a way, OK?
Sorry for the above - but I feel close to insulted when hearing it this way...
EDIT:
Even Wiki agrees with me.
Absolutely no offense or insult was intended.
I am well aware that most differences within Judaism regard level of observance.
I think you might be confusing the word "sect" with the word "cult" which does have a negative implication. I am not calling Chassidism, or whatever sect of it you belong to, a cult.
As you are aware, there are many different groups/sects/branches/orders/whatevers within Chassidism. I don't care what you want to call them. A rose is still a rose even if you call it a chicken. What term do you prefer?
I'd rather not get hung up on the idea of "mainstream" Judaism, either. As we both know, there are lots of varying traditions within Judaism. I just didn't want any onlookers to get the erroneous idea that reincarnation is a basic tenet of Judaism. Reincarnation is much more associated with Hinduism than it is with Judaism. Kabbalah is pretty difficult to explain to a Jew, much less somebody who knows little about Judaism.
Shalom Alechem.
GhostWriter16
Deity
Just curious, but has it crossed your mind that the messiah that you await could be Jesus and could have already come?
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