Quick Answers / 'Newbie' Questions

[jmas]

the game automatically chooses the defender and tries to use the one with the best odds against an attacker.

...unless you have units with several Drill promotions , in which case those promotions are given disproportionate weight toward making one of those units the defender even though other units may have higher odds. Here are some threads I made a note of about this matter (I think I got them from a post by r_rolo1):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331227
(especially post #23 and on)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333365

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333931

 

[Front242]

the bowman may very well be the best defender - especially if it is on a hill - if in doubt: provide a save

Sorry, do you mean a screen cap, or revert to a previous save? My long bowmen were city defense based, single multiplier, almost worthless outside of the city from what I could tell. I am not familiar with the terms of the forum so I am trying to provide enough info without confusing everyone. They were set up in haste to protect the only iron mine in my territory, after it was razed by marauders. So I pulled them from a group I was going to use to support an attack on Tokyo.

My riflemen were upgraded from pikemen with the sole intent of defending against/attacking knights or other mounts. I really just need to sit down with the manual (I will search online for one) and see what I am missing.

 

[ori]

what I meant is if you have a save file where you think it does not choose the right defender - attach it to a post here - you can attach files to a post by clicking on go advanced and then on manage attachments below the quick reply box.
Also note jmas' explanation.

@jmas: I had this nagging feeling that my statement was not 100% right - but did not remember what screws this up.

 

[Front242]

...unless you have units with several Drill promotions , in which case those promotions are given disproportionate weight toward making one of those units the defender even though other units may have higher odds. Here are some threads I made a note of about this matter (I think I got them from a post by r_rolo1):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331227
(especially post #23 and on)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333365

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333931

Thanks for those very informative links, .

The units:

Defense (me):
(riflemen) were upgraded from pikemen and had First strike II(X2) and III(X3) promotions @ 100% health
(Bowmen) strength I (X5) promotions @ 100% health, on a plains based iron mine (no hill defense).

Offense (Japan):
(knights) were Strength I(X2) III(X3) promotions @ unknown health
(Samurai) were strength I/archer defense I/melee defense I(X4) promotions @ unknown health.

I hope that you can give me an idea of what multipliers to use when figuring defense.

*Edit* The number of units are in parenthesis, and my last autosave is now long after the battle I mentioned. So no screen cap, but I will keep an eye out for this in the future.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Even though the defence algorithm isn't perfect (it doesn't always pick the very best defender), it is pretty decent. I find it very weird that it's picking a healthy bowman (I guess you mean longbowmen and not the unique unit) over a healthy riflemen. There would have to be a ridiculous number of promotions on the longbowman to make it better according to the defence algorithm.

Upload a savegame, the next time you notice something this weird. It might help us explain it. Could it be that the riflemen were already damaged due to some earlier attacks in the same turn? They might have been healthy at the end of your turn, but maybe not when the knight attacked.

 

[jmas]

@jmas: I had this nagging feeling that my statement was not 100% right - but did not remember what screws this up.

Thanks for those very informative links, .

No problem, guys.

Front, I like math myself, however I worked overnight the last 2 nights, so I'll leave it open for someone else to work out more numbers for you. Some points to be aware of: Attackers always get their base strength * (1+(.1*number of Combat promotions (until Combat 6 anyway ))). (The nested parentheses are just to try to avoid any potential confusion, sorry if it's overkill). However, other promos on the attacker, such as Cover and Shock ("archer defense /melee defense"--those don't have multiple levels by the way, they are a one-time deal) give negative amounts (-25% for Cover and Shock) to the defender's total modifiers. E.g., a bowman defending with Combat 1 (+10%), against a non-melee unit (against melee they get an extra bonus), let's say fully fortified (+25%) would normally get +35%, so 3*1.35 = 4.05 strength. But when a Cover unit is attacking, the bowman would have only +10%+25%-25% = 10%; that's 3.3 strength. Doesn't sound too good against knights (EDIT: Okay, I just remembered Knights can't get Cover, but I don't want to work out any more details for this post, especially since it's not clear whether we're talking about Babylonian Bowmen or generic Longbowmen), and even the Bowman's +50% vs. melee (e.g. samurai) wouldn't give much better odds. Of course you did have rifles. But Knights are immune to first strikes so the Riflemen's Drill promotions didn't help. (Drill IV, which you didn't have, gives a bonus vs. mounted units; though you said for the Rifles you had "the sole intent of defending against/attacking knights or other mounts"--so Combat 1, 2, and if possible Formation--the anti-mounted promotion--would have helped more).

Of course losing a set of battles in a row might have been your luck with the random number generator. It's been posted recently that it is a good generator, however I know it doesn't necessarily feel that way when you suffer statistically unlikely losses when strategically you needed some wins (maybe even just a couple more wins!)

This excellent article and discussion may help you: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615. Especially take note of what happens if the defender has net negative modifiers--if somehow a Bowman has a net -10%, it's not a 3*.9 strength unit, it's 3/(1+.1). The difference can be important.

Thank you for updating to explain the "X"'s in your post. I wondered if perhaps you were imitating the crossed swords of the City Raider promotions!

EDIT: I see Roland's point that you probably had longbowmen and not Babylonian bowmen. Combat 1, (fully) fortified longbows should be 6 * 1.35 = 8.1. Not as good as rifles or pikes vs. knights. By the way, did you check the Combat log to make sure the match-ups of attacker and defender were as you recall? I think it's Control-Tab to open the logs, then click the Combat log tab. The information there goes from most recent, backwards chronologically as you go down--it took me a little getting used to to read it. Maybe initial matchups were vs. the "expected" best defenders, who then got weakened until, say, longbows defended vs. knights. I know with this many fights I could probably lose track of what fight happened when without checking the log--especially in the heat of emotion..

Hope all that helps.

 

[Hsinchu]

My long bowmen were city defense based, single multiplier, almost worthless outside of the city from what I could tell.

Natural ability for Longbowmen is +75% while defending hills.

Hills naturally give +25% defense.

This means you have a +100% Longbowmen (12 STR) with First Strike. If it is 5 turns fortified, this means you got another 1.5 rounding out at 13.5 total strength. A Rifleman at full 14 + 25% from hill would be 17.5 at least, and 21 STR if fortified 5 turns. A Pikeman should also be 6 STR + 125% = 13.5 w/o First Strike. Between Longbowmen and Pikeman, Longbowman is first up.

Longbowmen with a +10% str promotion would round out at 14.1 which still doesn't explain priority against 17.5 Riflemen (ignoring +25% vs mounted).

Rifleman should have gone first without doubt. If he got softened, then longbowmen would follow before Pikemen. Are you sure it wasn't musket? Musketman has no interior bonuses and 9+25% = 11.25 unfortifiied and 13.5 fortified, which still leaves first strike longbows up.

Wow... fortified longbows on hills are comparable to unfortified pikeman against mounted and BETTER than fortified muskets. No wonder we all have to get cannons. XD

 

[jmas]

Hsinchu, there wasn't a hill (and unpromoted longbows get a total of +50%, not +75%, on hills without cities on them):

Defense (me):

[snip]

(Bowmen) strength I (X5) promotions @ 100% health, on a plains based iron mine (no hill defense).

first strike longbows

Remember, Knights are immune to first strikes..

 

[Hsinchu]

Hsinchu, there wasn't a hill (and unpromoted longbows get a total of +50%, not +75%, on hills without cities on them)

Remember, Knights are immune to first strikes..

Alright. I was assuming ideal conditions that could explain why longbowman > two obviously superior defenders. On a plains iron, there is ZERO reasonable logic in my mind.

It has never happened to me (in Vanilla) and if it ever does, I'll be sure to let y'all have my save.

 

[Front242]

Alright. I was assuming ideal conditions that could explain why longbowman > two obviously superior defenders. On a plains iron, there is ZERO reasonable logic in my mind.

It has never happened to me (in Vanilla) and if it ever does, I'll be sure to let y'all have my save.

It was generic longbowmen, and I did not realize that knights are immune to first strike (Good to know). Somehow I was playing in epic mode and that seemed to change the odds. A new test in quick is much easier, but I am not sure why. I am over my frustration although, I started to try and see why the other Civ's were out producing me in everything so I found a debug mode on the forum and ran 33 moves with it toggled on to see what they were doing, and 33 with it toggled off (3 different scenarios) ... the results were exactly the same. The scouts made a beeline for all of the villages closest to them, No fog of war for them it seems.

I am hooked for good it seems.

 

[Hsinchu]

One other possible thought: The knights promotions may have downgraded Rifleman/Pikeman ranking. I'm not sure how. Gunpowder bonus would decrease the odds against Rif, but not by much. and I don't think knights get shock unless they are upgrades.

 

[jmas]

One other possible thought: The knights promotions may have downgraded Rifleman/Pikeman ranking. I'm not sure how. Gunpowder bonus would decrease the odds against Rif, but not by much. and I don't think knights get shock unless they are upgrades.

I think (from Front's "(knights) were Strength I(X2) III(X3) promotions @ unknown health ") that 2 Knights had Combat 1 and 3 Knights had Combat 1, 2, and 3. Knights can get Shock but it doesn't look like these ones had it. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Pinch (anti-gunpowder bonus) is only available once one has the Gunpowder tech; Front, did Toku have Gunpowder? Though even if he had it, and Pinch on his Knights, it shouldn't change the odds so much (as Hsinchu alludes to) as to change attacker/defender matchups to where Longbows would defend against the Knights.

******

I have my own question. Did patch 3.19 make it so that ice can block coastal trade? I think I've always gotten coastal trade before whether there was ice or not. But with all the necessary tiles revealed (most of them visible in the screenie below), I don't have trade with Ramses to the southeast, with whom I have Open Borders. There's a barb city on the lower right of the screen that doesn't have the culture to cover a coastal water tile. There is another barb city somewhere south-by-southeast (all I could see was 2 tiles of barb culture that had appeared on my map) but it didn't look very likely to me that the barb culture would extend to the coast in question here. I suppose I could be wrong about that though. Anyone know what's going on?

Spoiler :

 

[gilgamesh009]

I have reached a point in the game when the "enemy" has more units in a city than are shown on the normal screen interface. Is there a way to scroll down through the enemy units in a city to see what all I am up against?

Still Learning

gilgamesh009

 

[Silu]

I have my own question. Did patch 3.19 make it so that ice can block coastal trade? I think I've always gotten coastal trade before whether there was ice or not. But with all the necessary tiles revealed (most of them visible in the screenie below), I don't have trade with Ramses to the southeast, with whom I have Open Borders. There's a barb city on the lower right of the screen that doesn't have the culture to cover a coastal water tile. There is another barb city somewhere south-by-southeast (all I could see was 2 tiles of barb culture that had appeared on my map) but it didn't look very likely to me that the barb culture would extend to the coast in question here. I suppose I could be wrong about that though. Anyone know what's going on?

AFAIK it's always been that way. I remember doing an actual WB test to prove that floating Ice blocks Sailing-trade back in 3.17.

 

[Roland Johansen]

The scouts made a beeline for all of the villages closest to them, No fog of war for them it seems.

The AI also suffers from the fog of war, but its units can look a bit further than the humans units (based on their movement range). The AI also suffers various disadvantages compared to the human player. It for instance has no recollection of what it has seen in the past, any decision it takes is solely based on what it sees now. And it of course suffers from being stupid (compared to humans). It's fairly competent as far as AIs go.

I have my own question. Did patch 3.19 make it so that ice can block coastal trade? I think I've always gotten coastal trade before whether there was ice or not. But with all the necessary tiles revealed (most of them visible in the screenie below), I don't have trade with Ramses to the southeast, with whom I have Open Borders. There's a barb city on the lower right of the screen that doesn't have the culture to cover a coastal water tile. There is another barb city somewhere south-by-southeast (all I could see was 2 tiles of barb culture that had appeared on my map) but it didn't look very likely to me that the barb culture would extend to the coast in question here. I suppose I could be wrong about that though. Anyone know what's going on?

I thought ice blocked trade. There could also be a barb city in the FOW, but I think the ice is enough.

I have reached a point in the game when the "enemy" has more units in a city than are shown on the normal screen interface. Is there a way to scroll down through the enemy units in a city to see what all I am up against?

Still Learning

gilgamesh009

Welcome to civfanatics!

There's no way to scroll through the list.

First a set of units is listed in detail, but the last few lines have listings as follow:

rifleman (12) combat I (10) combat II (3) drill I (4), cavalry (4) flanking I (4) flanking II (2)

meaning that next to the detailed list of riflemen and cavalry and other units, the stack also contains 12 riflemen which have 10 combat I promotions and 3 combat II promotions and 4 drill I promotions divided among them and 4 cavalry which have 4 flanking I and 2 flanking II promotions divided among them. You won't know exactly which unit has which promotions, but usually that's not that interesting anyway with such huge stacks. You're mainly interested in how huge the stack actually is and what type of units it contains.

 

[Hsinchu]

If you are interested in what kind of units you are up against in terms of promotions...

Remember, when you have a go to attack function against a civ you are at war with, it will give you a combat odds popup which typically includes what bonuses are being rendered by the BEST DEFENSIVE UNIT. If you are planning on doing combat with a stack of doom without siege, I'd suggest you forget it, but that's a matter of choice, of course. If you ARE using siege, hopefully collateral will reduce the strength numbers where promos don't matter.

What I would like to see is a combat odds determination without an active DoW. Aside from that, SIEGE SIEGE SIEGE or... COLLATERAL COLLATERAL COLLATERAL (Tanks).

or.. ICBM

 

[jmas]

Thank you Silu and Roland. I'll have to find another way for trade to go, I suppose..

 

[YodaTheCat]

Hey gurus

Only just got onto CivIV after too many years on CivIII, and have been through the Civilopedia and found it wanting.

I can't work out all the icons that are above the city name in the main game screen, where the trade route and cities religions are displayed. They've only appeared recently midway through the game and I can't work out what triggered them. Is there a legend for them somewhere that I've missed?

I get a hammer, beaker & coin, which I reckon are for the top producing cities in those areas, but I have no culture one.

What about the grey/silver star? Something to do with Forbidden Palace?

And the lightning flash is Power, but what is power all about? Is it if I have a plant in the city? Does the fact the city has power do anything other than boost hammers?

 

[Hsinchu]

Hey gurus

not a guru, but hello to you, too.

I can't work out all the icons that are above the city name in the main game screen, where the trade route and cities religions are displayed. They've only appeared recently midway through the game and I can't work out what triggered them. Is there a legend for them somewhere that I've missed?

Nope, no legend that I can find. If you search the forums, there are one or two threads enumerating what they stand for, though.

I get a hammer, beaker & coin, which I reckon are for the top producing cities in those areas, but I have no culture one.

You got it right. No culture one exists in the ordinary interface. Open your domestic advisor to have a glance at the real numbers.

What about the grey/silver star? Something to do with Forbidden Palace?

Bingo. Forbidden Palace and Versailles (World Wonder). Gives you a general indication of where your maintenance costs are coming from.

And the lightning flash is Power, but what is power all about? Is it if I have a plant in the city? Does the fact the city has power do anything other than boost hammers?

Power is gained by having one of four things:
A Hydro Plant
A Coal Plant + Coal
A Nuclear Plant + Uranium
Being on the same continent as YOUR Three Gorges Dam

If you have a factory, you get +50% for having power. In late game, this is somewhat important as without power you probably won't be producing much unless you are buying everything for your powerless city in gold via Universal Suffrage.

 

[Front242]

The AI also suffers from the fog of war, but its units can look a bit further than the humans units (based on their movement range). The AI also suffers various disadvantages compared to the human player. It for instance has no recollection of what it has seen in the past, any decision it takes is solely based on what it sees now. And it of course suffers from being stupid (compared to humans). It's fairly competent as far as AIs go.

I agree about the competency if the AI since I am quite familiar with programing. That said, my reference to them making a beeline to the ones closest to them was not referring to just 3 or four squares away, but quite a distance (as some of the villages were eight or nine). Although it is true that it has no true recall of the past, the algorithms in current programing do a good job of allowing a fairly good approximation of recollection. The disadvantages the AI suffers can be balanced and saying it is stupid is a bit a simplified IMO. Programing is still not much different than a complex form of "if[ ] then goto[ ]". For example, You build a mental pathway based on decisions made by the AI Civ's and make your choices based on those. The AI is able to do the same but in a less complex way. So more like "If[ ]and[ ]and[ ]... then goto[ ]", in a complex flow chart that allows changes based on past decision made by you and it. It is not so dissimilar to the thought processes we make throughout our day. The difference is it is less likely to make a mistake by miss click, or forgetting the path you originally intended to take. Fortunately, we have save points for those instances.

The process is quite a bit more complex then my explanation, but I am hoping to put it in words that those who are not familiar with programing will understand.

*EDIT* Is there a screen capture feature in CivIX vanilla?