R&T C P2: Payoff

[donsig]

The Great Leaders cannot rush wonders in C3C.

So, what can they be used for?

Do we try to build the great library every demogame? I hate the great library. If it ever gets built we should burn it to the ground. Everyone should go back and re-read mad-bax's post. It explains very clearly why we do not need the great library.

As for other, have you guys ever heard of Marx? The only point behind getting the most expensive free tech we could monopolize would be to turn around and sell it for profit. Do we really want to do that? Who knows right now! Perhaps doing so would be a good idea if we bartered for techs to bring us to parity with other civs. If on the other hand we could only sell for gold (because we were already advanced) then wouldn't maintaining the tech lead be worth much more than a few shiny yellow coins? It seems to me this poll is a bit premature. We should go back to the drawing board on this one...

BTW, I'm sticking with map making for now. I don't have Conquests so I'm not sure but can it really be that map making bestows no benefits upon a seafaring nation? Sid wouldn't do that, would he?

 

[MOTH]

Hi Donsig,
I don't own C3C either, so I'm not 100% sure on all this.

Military Great Leaders can be used to:
1. Build an Army
2. Rush any improvement except Great Wonders.

There is also the concept of Scientific Great Leaders. These can be used to rush Great Wonders. The chance that you get one is 2-4% each time you are the first civ to research a tech. Pretty rare.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Just to clear up a few issues:
Map trading requires navigation.

correct

Military great leaders cannot, I believe, rush small wonders either.

Incorrect; small Wonders can be rushed.

Take care if we're going to republic. One free unit per town, two gold per unit after that.

correct

I'd like to reiterate going for map making. Let us exploit our seafaring trait to the max!

Our seafaring trait gives our galeys +1 movement. Can be useful. But not my preferred path.

I also hate the great Library; It prevents people from doing things right as TGL compensates a lot of bad play. I only build it when I absolutely need it. And then only if capturing is not an option.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I have usually found Literature to have great value to the AI, and in fact, I suspect it would be the answer for the monopoly pick as well. I don't think the great library is necessary for us to build, but the AI usually pays me quite well to get the chance to build it. The key is to horde the tech until several opponents are met, then sell it to all in one turn, especially if they are all racing with the pyramids, oracle, etc...

 

[greekguy]

Military great leaders cannot, I believe, rush small wonders either.

MGL's can definitely rush small wonders. they can't rush great wonders or an army, IIRC.

 

[RegentMan]

Thanks for correcting me. Like I implied, I wasn't too sure.

 

[DaveShack]

MGL's can definitely rush small wonders. they can't rush great wonders or an army, IIRC.

MGL's can rush small wonders, form armies, or rush any improvement.

SGL's can rush great wonders or start an age of science (which seems buggy, or at least doesn't have very much effect most of the time).

 

[YNCS]

I disagree with mad-bax that the GL is worthless. He says:

First we can turn research down or off and accumulate gold. This will of course condemn us to not taking a tech lead since 2 civs will already know any tech we get. Since we may not know all the civs, it is likely that there will be civs out there that are even more advanced, on another continent maybe with more civs and better terrain. Thus we can never get a monopoly tech and thus buying "stuff" like maps and resources will take up some of the extra gold we make.

Right now we're in this position. We're behind in the tech race (the Indians know a tech we don't) and likely to stay that way for a while. With the GL, we don't fall further behind.

Second, we can try to research at an accelerated rate to get a monopoly tech, or a tech lead for military advantage, in which case the GL will provide no benefit, except for a few initially. Thus we will be 300 shields shy of where we should be, which is 10 horses or swords and enough to take out a neighbour on their own.

I fail to see how having the GL keeps us from having accelerated research. If we have research at, let's say, 40%, we'll be able to research techs before the AI AND not have to duplicate research other civs have done.

 

[RegentMan]

If we have research at, let's say, 40%, we'll be able to research techs before the AI AND not have to duplicate research other civs have done.

What's the point of having the Great Library if we're going to research?

 

[Xerol]

We could go after techs the AI doesn't research as often, and let the GL get the techs that the AIs research frequently anyway. I do it a lot(build the GL AND research simultaneously).

Still, I think Map Making is what we should go for. If it is continents, then that does mean Suicide Galleys - but keep in mind what the lighthouse would give us: +1 movement and access to sea tiles -- which basically shaves several turns off of any potential SG route. To restate that in a different way: Sea tile access means we can start closer, and +1 movement means we move faster.

So really which one we should go for depends almost entirely on the landmass: GL would be most effective on a Pangaea, and GL most effective on Continents. My vote is "Abstain" with the caveat that we should wait before deciding--I'd agree with either Map Making or Literature, but we don't have enough information at this time.

 

[Octavian X]

Voted Map Making, as it's really the most beneficial tech we can chose should we manage to pull off the Philo gambit. Remember, we're seafaring, so our gallies would get 4 movement, plus a reduced chance of sinking in water. Very useful for extensive exploration, in my opinion.

 

[RegentMan]

GL would be most effective on a Pangaea, and GL most effective on Continents.

Great lighthouse would be most effective on a pangaea, and great library most effective on continents?

 

[YNCS]

What's the point of having the Great Library if we're going to research?

Having the GL means that we don't have to research certain techs, leaving us free to research other techs. The GL is a means of getting techs without trading for them from other civs or researching them ourselves.

 

[classical_hero]

Great lighthouse would be most effective on a pangaea, and great library most effective on continents?

Maybe we should call the Great Library; GLib, and the Great Lighthouse; GLig, to shop any cofusion.

I voted for Map Making as the tech that we should get if we get Philosophy first. It makes more sense to go for because of the advantages it gives to any Civilization. One of the best things is that we get a ship that can now transport troops and it has an extra mvnt compared to the curragh. There is one thing that is a worry about this tech is that if we go for the GLig as a result of this tech, we will be getting a very early GA, which is not the best thing to happen.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

woah.
did this poll just swing five points overnight?

Also- there are only a few hours left. Vote'em if you've got'em.

SaaM

 

[donsig]

I thought GL was Great Leader!

 

[Ginger_Ale]

GL = Great Leader, Great Lighthouse, Great Library

Depends on the context. It's nice if people say the full word out the first time, so from then on we know what they're talking about (especially since it involves the techs with the two Great Library/Lighthouse wonders).

 

[RegentMan]

The four move galleys could also aid settlement. Our settles could board and be at a spot within turns, not nine or ten.

 

[mad-bax]

The four move galleys could also aid settlement. Our settles could board and be at a spot within turns, not nine or ten.

4 move galleys are good for war. More movement points than a foot unit on road. Take rivers into account and the worker turns required to build a land based supply line and we finally have a decent argument for map making.

 

[Xerol]

Great lighthouse would be most effective on a pangaea, and great library most effective on continents?

Other way around.

And I didn't even bring up the advantages of the Lighthouse with expansion and war, but those are 2 more good points to add towards it. I still think the Library should be considered in the event that we ARE on Pangaea, however. (In the case of either landform, though, those fast galleys mean faster contact, and in turn more techs and brokering involved.)