R8XFT mod

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen
Alexander isnt from what i consider North Greece, which to me is Thessaly, but rather from the thracian stock that seesm to have been Macedon- though all fo this dosetn matter- the "Greeks" which we speak of are macenaeans and Minoans- and need I reming you, that there is NO pictoral evidence of them being blond haired- in fact, the time hair is mention is when int he beginning, there is reference to Achilles blood red hair- but this is easilly explain by the tradition of dyeing hair red, which was wide spred- even Rameses II The Great dyed his hair red.

(and to note, frescos portray alexander as a dirty blond, not blond )

If there's no pictorial evidence Xen, and if you regard pictorial evidence as the only acceptable kind, then why are you saying that they have black curly hair? Seems a strange double standard.


Aristotle: his hair is straight:

But the fact of the matter is, skeletons classified Alpine or Nordic never have black curly hair...and there are scores of Greek personalities described as fair-haired: Achilles and Alexander are but two. I'm not saying the Greeks were blonde or anything - no nation in the world is predominantly blonde except Scandinavia - but really, I doubt that the aristocracy had black curly hair, esp. the Mycenaean aristocracy, and especially women, who are far more likely to be fair than men.

 

[Xen]

A) care to point where achiiles is described as fair haired? I have neve rseen any copy anywhere saying he was, obnly one small mention in the beginning of red hair, which again, concidereing all the other bronze age cultural left overs in it, is more then likelly dued hair

B)Mycenaeans and Minoans are NOT the same as classical greeks in geneology, save perhaps for the Achaians- otherwise they all seem to have been Doric transpalnts into the regions, and the two peoples intermingled

C)I also said no pictoral evidence fopr blond hair- all the pictures of people, commaner and aristocrat alike are of people with black curely/wavy haried people form the graecian bronze age- not a single other colpur, even brown, to be found.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Well, if there's only one small mention, i'm not going to kill loads of time looking for it. But here you go for some others:

Helen:

"But among them stood magnificent Paris now,
fair-haired Helen’s lord, and he came back
with a winging burst in answer: "Stop, Antenor!
No more of your hot insistence—it repels me."
(Iliad, VII 354-58)


Menelaos

"Deeply stirred, Menelaos of the fair hair answered him"

(Iliad, XVII, 18)

"But if red-haired Menelaus kills Alexander,
then let the Trojans hand back Helen,
with all her property, and compensate
Achaeans with something suitable,
which future ages will remember"

(Iliad, III, 317-21)

Menelaos is called "red-haired" virtually every other mention of his name. Many other characters, such as Briseis, Thetis (Achilles' mother) and Neoptolemus (Achilles' son of later Trojan Cycle) are decribed as having fair hair. (The Greeks, like the Romans, didn't distinguish between red and blonde hair).



And when did I mention the Minoans? I mentioned the Mycenaeans because the topic is Helen of Sparta, a Mycenaean (culturally) princess.


And if you're talking about Greek pottery, that hair-color is stylization; the artists had neither the inclination, nor the knowledge to accurately depict their subjects

 

[Xen]

whos translation are you using- I've virtually sword off all others then the W.H.D Rouse translation.

as far as art goes- Minoans and Mycenareans are one in the same IIRC- there are certianlyl enough ledgends regarding Cretains coming into Greece and founding cities (Eg: King Pelops founder of Mycenae or Argos)

and as far as art goes, no NOT greek pottery, Minoan/Mycenaea pottery- it dosent matter how th eclassical greeks portrayed hehlen, as if a legendary queen of sparta existed, she would have been Mycenaea/Minoan

that said, ther eis no argument- you dont find any blond or red haired figures in Mycenaean or Minoan art except fo rthe fact that its known red dye was used, at least in times of war to daily dye a warriors hair.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen
whos translation are you using- I've virtually sword off all others then the W.H.D Rouse translation.

I'm using loads of translations, but Perseus has the original Greek.

Originally posted by Xen
as far as art goes- Minoans and Mycenareans are one in the same IIRC- there are certianlyl enough ledgends regarding Cretains coming into Greece and founding cities (Eg: King Pelops founder of Mycenae or Argos)

Nope, totally different.

Originally posted by Xen

and as far as art goes, no NOT greek pottery, Minoan/Mycenaea pottery- it dosent matter how th eclassical greeks portrayed hehlen, as if a legendary queen of sparta existed, she would have been Mycenaea/Minoan

Really, you have a Minoan potrait of Helen? Care to show it...

Originally posted by Xen

that said, ther eis no argument- you dont find any blond or red haired figures in Mycenaean or Minoan art except fo rthe fact that its known red dye was used, at least in times of war to daily dye a warriors hair.

The Iliad does not mention dye. Menelaos clearly had red hair, and girls like Helen and Briseis were fair. I've no idea where you're digging that dye argument from...I'd be pleased if you were to give some examples.

 

[aaminion00]

Take this to the bloody history forums, otherwise if I know you two well enough this will go for another 3 pages or so -.-

 

[Xen]

A)origional greek dosetn matter at all, considering we're speaking english, and it has to go through some translation- perseus is a great source- but no one ever said thier translatio was flawless

B)no, completley the same- we all know that generally, greek myths seem to have seeds of truth to them- even if the specifics are greatlley exagerted


C)a portrait of helen herslef? no- but consideing se was of the same people, one dosetn need one

D)you cant take ANY thing that old literally, be it the christian bible, or the Homeric epics

E)the illiad dosetn have to mention dye- its a cultutural trait that was spread from Egot to scandanaiva, and persisted unto Rome times- after all, the Illiad dosetn mention inscense being used in offerings either, yet we know it used at that time- such stories dont concern themselves with specifics- th emention of red hair is meant basically to show how rough and tough and ready for war these guys were, not as what thier literal hair color was- and how might I know this? because its stupid to even begin to take somthing liek that litterally, unless your goping to concider the entire work a work of fiction.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen
A)origional greek dosetn matter at all, considering we're speaking english, and it has to go through some translation- perseus is a great source- but no one ever said thier translatio was flawless

It doesn't matter? Well, it does if you want to quibble about a word. Just go to perseus and see what Greek word they're using.

Originally posted by Xen
B)no, completley the same- we all know that generally, greek myths seem to have seeds of truth to them- even if the specifics are greatlley exagerted

They're centuries apart...one is based on Crete (we're not even sure if it was Greek), the other mainly on the Argolid.

Originally posted by Xen

C)a portrait of helen herslef? no- but consideing se was of the same people, one dosetn need one

Well, what are you talking about then? The paintings from Minoan Crete are stylized...everyone looks identical anyway, and human communities usually possess individuals of varying physical appearance.

Originally posted by Xen
E)the illiad dosetn have to mention dye- its a cultutural trait that was spread from Egot to scandanaiva, and persisted unto Rome times- after all, the Illiad dosetn mention inscense being used in offerings either, yet we know it used at that time- such stories dont concern themselves with specifics- th emention of red hair is meant basically to show how rough and tough and ready for war these guys were, not as what thier literal hair color was- and how might I know this? because its stupid to even begin to take somthing liek that litterally, unless your goping to concider the entire work a work of fiction.

Nonsense, red hair is a pretty distinctive characteristic...and even modern Greeks are known to have it. When I was in the far north-east of Turkey..Lazica...the area near ancient Colchis, I noticed that a large proportion of the men had red hair.

And what's this about red dye spreading from Egypt to Scandinavia until Roman times? There couldn't be any evidence for that...you're making it up. There is virtually no evidence at all, beside basic archaeological finds, for pre-Roman time Scandinavia. Hair dying is probably very old, and probably spread to Egypt from elsewhere rather than the other way about...but there's no evidence either way.

But saying that Menelaos and those others all dyed their hair is pure fantasy. 1) There's no evidence that Mycenaeans had hair-dying as part of their military culture. 2) If Menelaos has done it, why doesn't Agamemnon and Ajax and Odysseus, etc, etc, ?


Besides all this, it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that most of the core of Greek religion comes from the same source as Germanic religion. The conception of the universe being governed by warring Gods and Giants (the latter being older, and spawned from the Earth) is a totally unique vision shared by only the Greeks and Germans/Norse.

 

[Xen]

oh no, not egypt in roman times, only germany- but in the bronze age it WAS wide spread- sorry for the confusion

there is also the little thing that if anything, its the germanic religions that coem from the greek belifes- or whereever the Indo-europeans of our far past came from- which are the people who laid the seeds for a great deal of the cultural triats of european civilization, and why certian aspects are seen all over the continent

 

[Osubaker]

Sheeeesh, sorry I brought it up

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen
there is also the little thing that if anything, its the germanic religions that coem from the greek belifes- or whereever the Indo-europeans of our far past came from- which are the people who laid the seeds for a great deal of the cultural triats of european civilization, and why certian aspects are seen all over the continent

That seems very unlikely, as the Norse/Germans have a pretty distinctive version. Besides, I don't see the means of communication. My view is that the Mycenaean Greek aristocracy had its origins from a similar source as the Germans...maybe the Hittites too.

 

[Xen]

I'm also not arguing- there is no possible way that any will ever convice me otherwise on this issue, for me, its just a matter of fact- the mycaneana and minoan greeks of the time of the trojan war were all basicall olive or fair skinned dark haird people, with curley or wavy hair (and for note, your aristotle is wavy haired as well- you need only look to see it)

theres also that fact that the Minans and Mycenaeans are NOT centuires apart, its just the names connect wth places start to confuse things, as th eclassicla greeks changed some specifics, liek Agamemnon being king of Mycenae, which wa salso later identified with/as Argos

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Xen
I'm also not arguing- there is no possible way that any will ever convice me otherwise on this issue, for me, its just a matter of fact- the mycaneana and minoan greeks of the time of the trojan war were all basicall olive or fair skinned dark haird people, with curley or wavy hair (and for note, your aristotle is wavy haired as well- you need only look to see it)

My Aristotle has straight hair. His hair has been done up, but only straight hair people can have a beard like that.

Originally posted by Xen

theres also that fact that the Minans and Mycenaeans are NOT centuires apart, its just the names connect wth places start to confuse things, as th eclassicla greeks changed some specifics, liek Agamemnon being king of Mycenae, which wa salso later identified with/as Argos

Read some bronze age history Xen Minoan and Cycladic civilizations are maritime, possibly non-Greek civilizations. Mycenaean civilization is a distinctive, war-like civilization of the late bronze age, that probably destroyed Minoan civilization.

If we to were rely only on archaeology and artistic similarity, we'd think the Germans and Romans were the same civilization.

 

[Xen]

even if they were not the same civilization, they seem to have been the same peoples- that said, I have reada great dea of history regardign the Helladic Bronze age- its perhaps one of my most favorite periods in history- and while the mycenaens were a war like social culture, in almost ever other aspect outside of war and diplomacy, there is little deviation from Minoan culture, weather it be art, architecture, government, or arts and crafts, rampant trade between the two cultures ment a constant flow, and subsequent blending- mostlly resutling the in the Mycenaeans being the ones who were gradually changed, as eveidenced by thier temples. and the gradual growth in the importance of thier own goddesses, or perhaps incorperation of the minoan goddesses into thier own religion, or at leas tthe aspects of the minoan goddesses were attributed to local Mycenaean dieities, all while keep the male centralized heirarchy of deities... but I'm getting off track- this is about hair colour, and if its wavy or not.

that said, after thinking about it some, while i would say that straight hair, or semi straight is common all over, still forward that the Hellenic populace of old was predomiantlly of this kind, and almost exclusivelly dark haird- because if they were not, then its doubtful that blond hair would have had such a negative connotation in the med sea (and at least the Greco-Roman tradtition of disliking blond hair has resulted with the continuation of the roman invention of the "stupid blond joke", or so I've heard- that said, I myself have nothign agiant blonds, because blond chicks are hot)

 

[tjedge1]

Take this to the bloody history forums, otherwise if I know you two well enough this will go for another 3 pages or so -.-

Here we go again.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

If you two keep it up.....I'll call Zulu!! Mhahahaha!

This thread is for R8XFT's mod, not some discussion on what the Greeks and Romans looked like, take it to another forum....or ignore me and tempt the wrath of the undead Uncle Sam....

 

[Xen]

I wont argu the point anymore, at leas tnot here, though calgacus and I, depite being like of mind in many areas, are more then a little vocal when we find a difference in our opinions

I apoologize, on at least my own, if not both of our behalfs

 

[Margim]

Back on topic - Just wanted to reaffirm how great these images are... work looks top notch, and its all coming out so quickly!

 

[Goldflash]

New Helen is execllent. She'll probably make it into my next great project. Maybe the Morcoccan will too

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Helen is now Queen Tueta of the Illyrians. I've used that new ancient and modern leaderhead that I posted, and done new Medieval and Industrial. The industrial era is currently rendering (and this leaderhead is taking hours to render each era), and then all I need to do is the TU_all pcx (all the other pcxs and eras are done.)
I've completed Kekkonen based on Drift's feedback, and done an all-new Justinian, who has whiter skin following Xen's comments. As I lost the original background images, I've done new ones for Kekkonen and Justinian. I think the backgrounds look better, if anything.
The next leaderheads to undergo any real updating will be Malcolm of Scotland and Sojourner Truth.
I'm going to put up some previews later today and re-vamp my first posts so that it's clear what's done and where I'm at with the others. Please don't ask me to upload any completed leaderheads until the project's finished - but remember, like people have commented in this thread, I'm a fast worker .

In terms of UUs, I thought I'd give the Byzantines a cataphract. Their original dromon could be given to the Greeks to become their UU and renamed "trireme" or "fire trireme" or something like that. Then the hoplite could be given to the Illyrians as their UU. I might use Kryten's peltast instead of the hoplite graphics. For Scotland, I thought as I was replacing the Celts, that their Gallic Swordsman could be used - red hair, tartan trousers, looks more authentic than any other Scottish unit I've seen. There's the later unit with the kilt downloadable from this forum, but I prefer the Gallic Swordsman. What do you think?