More rivers does work as preferable, given that all other things work out equal. I do like Korea. Finding a 5 food map doesn't work as too difficult with them. The problems come as that we'll need to get pottery somehow, or luck out on grabbing territory while granaryless, and that getting a worker pump (s) with them probably won't happen until we've reached The Republic... and then still works out as harder, or we have multiple food bonuses. I know you can get the slingshot if you play as an alphabetic tribe without any alphabet opponents. And I know Chamnix did it one a large map with multiple scientific opponents. But, can we do it here?
Racing Deity to Space
- Thread starter Spoonwood
- Start date
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I wasn't really factoring-in the slingshot, to be honest; Writing, though, is definitely do-able, without deviating too much from normal opening strategy, and it's usually (in my experience, at least) enough to get all first tier techs, so I wouldn't have too many concerns about getting Pottery.
OTOH, researching a first-tier tech, like we have been doing with CB (I did manage a few attempts last night), seems to require an adjustment to do it - for example, I found it necessary to keep the first two warrior builds as MPs to keep the research going fast enough. I also found that doing so left little or no trade options once I'd got it, which meant a slow start right from the beginning.
And, of course, getting Writing gives us a shot at that SGL, too.
That said, I'll happily play Sumeria, but preferably with a more river intensive terrain.
OTOH, researching a first-tier tech, like we have been doing with CB (I did manage a few attempts last night), seems to require an adjustment to do it - for example, I found it necessary to keep the first two warrior builds as MPs to keep the research going fast enough. I also found that doing so left little or no trade options once I'd got it, which meant a slow start right from the beginning.
And, of course, getting Writing gives us a shot at that SGL, too.
That said, I'll happily play Sumeria, but preferably with a more river intensive terrain.
Here's something with Korea.
We don't have any contacts yet, and maybe that's better for us. I think the settler goes best directly east of seoul at a CxxxC here, and we can plop the next settler north of it to get the wheat in soon enough. The start doesn't look all too great, but not too shabby... all those forests can make things easier later. If you guys like it, I say we play it out and go for the slingshot. If we make it, we'll play it out to finish. If not, either another attempt with Korea, Pyramids SGL with the Ottos via CB, or we'll play as Sumeria (with 7 scientific opponents). We've got all 6 non-alphabetic tribes as our opponents in this one. I kind of like our proximity (though not too close) to two coasts, since we'll hopefully have more sea squares that way. I probably should have went with the settler after the 2nd warrior instead of a third warrior, but maybe this will work out better in the long run. We should keep -1 gpt until we have our 2nd city founded. We won't go broke.
Spoiler :
We don't have any contacts yet, and maybe that's better for us. I think the settler goes best directly east of seoul at a CxxxC here, and we can plop the next settler north of it to get the wheat in soon enough. The start doesn't look all too great, but not too shabby... all those forests can make things easier later. If you guys like it, I say we play it out and go for the slingshot. If we make it, we'll play it out to finish. If not, either another attempt with Korea, Pyramids SGL with the Ottos via CB, or we'll play as Sumeria (with 7 scientific opponents). We've got all 6 non-alphabetic tribes as our opponents in this one. I kind of like our proximity (though not too close) to two coasts, since we'll hopefully have more sea squares that way. I probably should have went with the settler after the 2nd warrior instead of a third warrior, but maybe this will work out better in the long run. We should keep -1 gpt until we have our 2nd city founded. We won't go broke.
Bartleby
Remembers laughter
lurker's comment: Would you guys think the Great Library Loan could pay off in this sort of game?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Do you mean 'gifting' the city containing the GL, pre-Education, then taking it back at a later stage?
@Bartleby:
If you meant what Bucephalus (and myself) suspect, interesting question. Sometimes keeping up in tech in the late middle ages in this sort of game can get really hard. So, I can see how one would feel inclined to think that. But, I'll say probably not, even if you have trouble keeping up in tech.
If that does work out as a suitable trick here, then you'll have to give it away to the weakest tribe, as you don't want to war with the strongest tribe and slow them down. That's fine, but
1. when you take the city back you'll have less improvements there.
2. You'll need a semi-decent military by the end of the middle ages. Usually I have trouble getting a semi-decent military up by the industrial ages, while still getting infrastructure up to push the tech pace.
3. Gifting the tribe you warred with into the industrial age for their free tech might now not work.
4. Doesn't a city lose population when one tribe captures it? If so, you'll have less population in that city now.
5. This one comes as the biggest in my mind. Let's say once you learn Education... Gunpowder, Astronomy, and Banking come as the next three non-optional techs. You research Banking and get beat to it by say Korea. You catch up and still get beat to Chemistry. But then, you learn Physics first while the AIs research Metallurgy, Democracy, and Navigation. The AIs then beat you to Theory of Gravity and Magnetism. You still picked up the pace by learning one tech before the AIs did, even if you got clobbered techwise and now have a broken bank account. I'd suspect that in most games like this there will exist at least one tech you can get to first as a monopoly tech in the high middle ages.
So, I say probably not. Still worth a thought though.
If you meant what Bucephalus (and myself) suspect, interesting question. Sometimes keeping up in tech in the late middle ages in this sort of game can get really hard. So, I can see how one would feel inclined to think that. But, I'll say probably not, even if you have trouble keeping up in tech.
If that does work out as a suitable trick here, then you'll have to give it away to the weakest tribe, as you don't want to war with the strongest tribe and slow them down. That's fine, but
1. when you take the city back you'll have less improvements there.
2. You'll need a semi-decent military by the end of the middle ages. Usually I have trouble getting a semi-decent military up by the industrial ages, while still getting infrastructure up to push the tech pace.
3. Gifting the tribe you warred with into the industrial age for their free tech might now not work.
4. Doesn't a city lose population when one tribe captures it? If so, you'll have less population in that city now.
5. This one comes as the biggest in my mind. Let's say once you learn Education... Gunpowder, Astronomy, and Banking come as the next three non-optional techs. You research Banking and get beat to it by say Korea. You catch up and still get beat to Chemistry. But then, you learn Physics first while the AIs research Metallurgy, Democracy, and Navigation. The AIs then beat you to Theory of Gravity and Magnetism. You still picked up the pace by learning one tech before the AIs did, even if you got clobbered techwise and now have a broken bank account. I'd suspect that in most games like this there will exist at least one tech you can get to first as a monopoly tech in the high middle ages.
So, I say probably not. Still worth a thought though.
Bartleby
Remembers laughter
I do mean gifting the GL pre-education; I'm just curious because I haven't played much at Deity level but I've found that on Demigod the return is not that great. I've used the strategy a couple of times, but it's largely been so I could focus on miltary buildup rather than pushing the tech pace.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
To add to what SW said, the biggest drawback, IMO, would be it's location. Unless we've had the good fortune of a SGL, it's going to be in a core city. Apart from the resultant loss of commerce and production, it would put us under cultural pressure, hard enough to cope with at Deity anyway.
Andronicus
Emperor
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Agree not loan library. If we cant keep up without GLib, then we probably havnt got a commerce rich map, have not played well enough or had bad luck (or combination of above).
I have played a further 10 turns on Spoonwood's save. I am not too hopeful for this map - no lux and small number of river tiles I have been able to work means 30 turns research and we are still 20 turns from writing. We need another 2 beakers per turn to reduce that. Have met Germans who are our neighbours and Persia, but dont yet know where they reside. The nearest lux found so far is the far side of Germany. Alpha netted pots, WC and wheel - we do have horses available. Germany are up iron, Persia are up masonry.
With the slow research I think the slingshot is out of the question, however we could have a shot at phil after writing then wait and hope AI research CoL, trade for that and research phil following turn. I have found this works maybe 50% of the time. If AI researches phil first they beat you to it, if no AI researches CoL first it can be a long wait. I think this gives us the best chance to get into early rep which we need to improve our commerce.
Seoul completes granary next turn, I recommend that be followed by a worker, then a chop aided settler in 3 turns. We may then want a couple more workers before putting it on full time setter duty.
Settling sites
We want to settle towards Germany to grab those river sites. Unfortunately the food boni fp sites are a long way away and I suspect will be taken by Germany. The other sites are plains tiles and will require irrigation for any growth. I suggest we next settler 2S,1SW of Seoul (red dot) (can share cows later) and 2S of Pyongyang (yellow dot) (can share wheat), then reach out to the sugar with grass around on the southern river before filling in to the north. Pyongyang may want a EW next to explore the rest of our area to see if there are any lux or food boni in the fog.
Turnlog
2950BC
we have much unexplored, I'll take the settler east to the wheat but not sure on settling site yet.
Eastern warrior sees blue border ... that would be Germany? Not the best vhoice for neighbours.
Southern warrior follows western coastline.
2900BC
We do indeed meet the Germans. They are up WC and IW, but down alpha. I can get WC but not IW, so I wait for more contacts for now.
2850BC
Grow size 4, lux to 20% - I'm hoping we find some nearby lux.
Settler moves to 3E of eoul, its 1 tile from coast and all coast spots are BGs. I'd rather settle 1NW of wheat so not wasted being non coastal and closer to Seoul for less corruption, This site will have lots of BGs in the future
Warroirs explore - north coast appears above Germany - we may be on a peninsula with Germany at the neck (although a wide neck)
Price for alpha (WC+10g) not going down so Germany does not appear about to research it.
2800BC
Settler in position
2750BC
Settle Pyongyang, starts worker
2710BC
Meet Persian pike. They are up Masonry, Pots, wheel, WC, down alpha. They will meet Germany next turn.
Trade Persia Alpha for Pots + WC + 20g (masonary or wheel not affordable with pots and pots is what we really need). Germany wont trade IW for alpha, pots and 7gpt (not even close).
Switch Seoul to granary.
2670BC
Exploring
2630BC
Seoul grows size 5 and we need 30% lux
Exploring - see incense east of Germany
2590BC
More exploring
Germany now have the wheel, trade alpha for wheel + 10g
There are horses RCP9 from Seoul to the SW.
I have played a further 10 turns on Spoonwood's save. I am not too hopeful for this map - no lux and small number of river tiles I have been able to work means 30 turns research and we are still 20 turns from writing. We need another 2 beakers per turn to reduce that. Have met Germans who are our neighbours and Persia, but dont yet know where they reside. The nearest lux found so far is the far side of Germany. Alpha netted pots, WC and wheel - we do have horses available. Germany are up iron, Persia are up masonry.
With the slow research I think the slingshot is out of the question, however we could have a shot at phil after writing then wait and hope AI research CoL, trade for that and research phil following turn. I have found this works maybe 50% of the time. If AI researches phil first they beat you to it, if no AI researches CoL first it can be a long wait. I think this gives us the best chance to get into early rep which we need to improve our commerce.
Seoul completes granary next turn, I recommend that be followed by a worker, then a chop aided settler in 3 turns. We may then want a couple more workers before putting it on full time setter duty.
Settling sites
We want to settle towards Germany to grab those river sites. Unfortunately the food boni fp sites are a long way away and I suspect will be taken by Germany. The other sites are plains tiles and will require irrigation for any growth. I suggest we next settler 2S,1SW of Seoul (red dot) (can share cows later) and 2S of Pyongyang (yellow dot) (can share wheat), then reach out to the sugar with grass around on the southern river before filling in to the north. Pyongyang may want a EW next to explore the rest of our area to see if there are any lux or food boni in the fog.
Turnlog
2950BC
we have much unexplored, I'll take the settler east to the wheat but not sure on settling site yet.
Eastern warrior sees blue border ... that would be Germany? Not the best vhoice for neighbours.
Southern warrior follows western coastline.
2900BC
We do indeed meet the Germans. They are up WC and IW, but down alpha. I can get WC but not IW, so I wait for more contacts for now.
2850BC
Grow size 4, lux to 20% - I'm hoping we find some nearby lux.
Settler moves to 3E of eoul, its 1 tile from coast and all coast spots are BGs. I'd rather settle 1NW of wheat so not wasted being non coastal and closer to Seoul for less corruption, This site will have lots of BGs in the future
Warroirs explore - north coast appears above Germany - we may be on a peninsula with Germany at the neck (although a wide neck)
Price for alpha (WC+10g) not going down so Germany does not appear about to research it.
2800BC
Settler in position
2750BC
Settle Pyongyang, starts worker
2710BC
Meet Persian pike. They are up Masonry, Pots, wheel, WC, down alpha. They will meet Germany next turn.
Trade Persia Alpha for Pots + WC + 20g (masonary or wheel not affordable with pots and pots is what we really need). Germany wont trade IW for alpha, pots and 7gpt (not even close).
Switch Seoul to granary.
2670BC
Exploring
2630BC
Seoul grows size 5 and we need 30% lux
Exploring - see incense east of Germany
2590BC
More exploring
Germany now have the wheel, trade alpha for wheel + 10g
There are horses RCP9 from Seoul to the SW.
Attachments
I doubt this is going to happen. Even on Sid it rearely happens, I don't think this will work out on Deity.
I assume you need to grow ASAP so why mining wheat?
Throw this map to recycle bin and search for other food/commerce rich start if you want to launch SS fast.
Andronicus
Emperor
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I have had quite a number of experiences of it working out on deity and even DG, my estimate is 50% of the time but perhaps the odds are quite a bit less. It depends how many AI you trade writing with immed on researching. If none research phil (and MM is most common post writing research target) and at least one goes CoL, it is doable. These are big ifs and in a GOTM I would take poly for monarchy SS if CoL not avail, but here we need republic I think so I would restart if unsuccessful.
For 4 turn SF which will be up and running very soon. Irrigating the wheat to allow use of river forest requires irrigating a grass tile first
I suspect as much myself
Probably less than 50%.
Almost all AI's will go for MM after Writing is gifted, maybe someone will go for CoL but maybe for philo. It is a big gamble that such game shouldn't rely on, if the time invested is important to you.
Missed one wheat in screenshot. Although you could share it with other town if enough bg's.
Throw away this if you want to get Spoonwood's Andromeda Award.
I'd like to see how much takes it to finish in 10xx AD's.
I could join for now, but don't know about future if it's OK. Research games are my favourite since civ3 came out.
Greece better than Korea (UU more useful and getting GA is faster and easier).
Someone find a map with river and food near river (commerce for initial research so faster research towards republic) to get us going. Slingshot is usually doable on Deity.
Infrastructure building + some warring for geting science farms is needed.
Also fast global research is needed for fast launch (we need AI's to reseaerch us techs!)
Greece better than Korea (UU more useful and getting GA is faster and easier).
Someone find a map with river and food near river (commerce for initial research so faster research towards republic) to get us going. Slingshot is usually doable on Deity.
Infrastructure building + some warring for geting science farms is needed.
Also fast global research is needed for fast launch (we need AI's to reseaerch us techs!)
I'd think Korea better, since their UU can help you take territory. Having a GA later might work out better since the AIs won't help as much with research then as they do earlier. Warring isn't needed (I finished one in 1220 AD without any war), and it's tricky since we probably don't want the best AI researches to join in any war we have going on and we'll probably want infrastructure first, and war weariness doesn't sound good at all. It could help, but it's tricky.
What does everyone else think on Korea vs. Greece?
Oh... and Ignas, have you managed the republic slingshot vs. all scientific tribes? I *believe* they tend to research faster, as the AIs probably have a higher science rate for them, but I don't know here really.
What does everyone else think on Korea vs. Greece?
Oh... and Ignas, have you managed the republic slingshot vs. all scientific tribes? I *believe* they tend to research faster, as the AIs probably have a higher science rate for them, but I don't know here really.
I think we should rely more on fast units.
We need more production from GA during massive lib/university building, so it's early MA. Also I noticed AI's do more research for you in early MA, later you catch up and lead in techs while empire grows.
Oh no, AI's have no bonuses. They have just 50% cheaper sci buildings and free tech which sometimes lead to faster tech pace.
And yes slingshot is possible. Just pick non alphabet AI's and delay trading Writing.
If you feel risk sometimes assign few scientists to get it faster(reduces growth though).
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
I share the reservations about this map.
My daughter is well enough to return to school today, so I'll have some time spare - I'll roll some starts.
My own preference is Greece, too.
@Andronicus: I know you're on the other side of the world, so probably asleep, but if you have a chance to post your preferences anytime soon, I'll get Mapfinder running this morning.
My daughter is well enough to return to school today, so I'll have some time spare - I'll roll some starts.
My own preference is Greece, too.
@Andronicus: I know you're on the other side of the world, so probably asleep, but if you have a chance to post your preferences anytime soon, I'll get Mapfinder running this morning.
Andronicus
Emperor
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You posted this when it was 5.58pm here in Adelaide ... I wasnt sleeping, rather still working. Now
I'm happy with either Greece or Korea
I think we need food rich tiles that are on river so that the tiles we work in the early game get an extra 1gpt for being on river. This will make a huge difference to getting the SS.
If no lux nearby it will be difficult, having sources of lux for happies + trade helps a lot. Of course reputation must be safely maintained.
I'm not big on worrying about the GLib. I would prioritise getting early republic and max growth to boost AI research early and our research later. By the time we build GLib (if AI wonder cascade doesnt beat us), we are likely to be researching second or third tier middle ages tech. Sure going no science for a bit helps cash rush infrastructure but so can picking the right tech to research and trading intelligently.
I must admit I am unfamiliar with non-war. I tend to rely on science farms gained by taking territory from nearby AI (these wars usually being fought in middle ages). We can leave a scientific AI OCC to get their age change freebie, but why leave an AI to prosper if it is going to contribute less to global research than we would with their territory?
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
.... Now
Spoken like a true Aussie!
Yep, I'm coming around to that way of thinking, myself. It's the way I always used to play, but I decided to experiment with a less aggressive game; however, I've had my fingers burnt a couple of times with that approach recently.
OK, I'll see what Mapfinder throws up today.
Andronicus
Emperor
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, but I found a few starts the old fashioned way
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