Rambling on Civics...

[Arathorn]

I've been trying to get an idea of what choices you can make for civics, to effect your government. Facts are these....

5 types of Civics. Government, Legal, Labor, Economy, Religion. Each has 5 sub-types. Some mentioned types of civics are Pacifistic, Universal Suffereage, Free Speech, Slavery, Emancipation, Serfdom, Polic State, Theocracy, but it's not said which goes where.

Now, it's possible each of the 5 sub-types is an "on/off" thing, so you can turn on/off slavery or turn on/off free speech or something like that. The comments tend to make me believe, however, that they are options that open up over time. Note, this is primarily speculation.

So, what could those options be? Well, this is essentially pure speculation, trying to tie together some ideas from previous games, what has been said, and my own guesses/hopes. I also consider gameplay reasons for these things and also include my guesses on what the various civics might mean that way.

Government: I'm taking this to mean the way the leader(s) are chosen -- how is it that certain people get power?

Totalitarian -- my guess for the start -- a single despot siezes power in a fierce grab -- force to the front -- like Despotism (and maybe Fascism) in Civ3
Hereditary -- like kings/queens or the various family dynasties found in various parts of the world -- a bit more stable than totalitarian but probably causes some unhappines/cultural problems
Oligarchy -- rule by an "enlightened" few -- tried a few times and a popular conception of how things might work. Not sure what traits to infer,
Republic -- limited voting -- the ancient Greek model and possibly the same model for the US, at least its early years. Many people vote but less than half, say. Reasonable happiness but pressure from the more enlightened civilizations.
Universal Sufferage -- democracy from Civ3, more or less. Everybody votes. Should be more chaotic in certain ways than the other govts and negative game effects (wars, civic/religious pressure from other civs) will have greater effect.

Legal: How is justice dispensed/enforced? What's the method?

Police State -- Government cracks down HARD on misbehavior -- most closed borders but also probably lowest culture/happiness -- hard to spy on or send missionaries
None -- Start state -- law is up to each individual to determine and enforce
Vigililantism -- Small groups take it upon themselves to enforce the law as they best see it -- culture/law/effectiveness varies significantly from place to place
Organized Justice -- courts, police, appeals, jails...
???

Labor:

Slavery -- People work because they have to, fear for their lives or families, repressed groups, low efficiency but cheap cost -- Start state
Serfdom -- People work because they have little choice, society demands it of them to survive, close to slavery but a bit more freedom. More efficiency but more cost, too
Emancipation -- Slaves are freed, people are "paid" to work, high cost but reasonable efficiency
Conscription -- Govt forces people to spend a portion of their life working for the govt good. Semi-efficient and happiness but greater potential for good and bad than serfdom
Anarchy -- Some people work when they want to. Little gets done but it's awfully cheap.

Economy: How are goods exchanged? How are things distributed?

None -- Start state. You only have what you can get for yourself.
Barter -- Allows trade with other nations. People trade a bit internally, so some luxes/food shared internally (?) but little tax dollars for govt. benefit
Communism -- Everything is shared completely equally. Really extreme socialism. No personal property, everything is jointly owned. All cities benefit some but little specialization is truly possible. "All are equal" taken to the extreme. [N.B. Name not exactly accurate, but close enough.]
Socialism -- Half of what is made is shared, half kept for personal gain. Some specialization but some cost with that specialization, too.
Capitalism -- Free market. High output work but high maintenance and subject to large fluctuations. High specialization but "outsiders" hard to incorporate in, often.

Religion: What is the state's view of religion? What is official policy?

None -- Start state -- religion just is -- no policy and all kinds of odd things can happen, missionaries have a very easy time but aren't protected
Theocracy -- the state and the religion are one. All cities are expected to conform to the state's religion, whatever that may be.
Atheism -- the state actively seeks out and destroys religion. Missionaries are enemy units. People may or may not like religion but the state fights against it.
Separation from State -- the State tries to divorce itself from all religious decisions. No/limited benefit from religious powers and potential for missionaries/spying is high. Some kind of corresponding benefit, however. ?
???

======================================
Well, that's my take. Just some thoughts I had on what the system *might* look like. I have absolutely no insider information, so this is all just a guess.

I would expect some mini-anarchies to modify one aspect of the civics system. Some civics categories appear to have natural progressions, while others appear to have no "better" options, just options. There seem to be some natural techs that might correspond with enabling various civics options.

Can anybody fill in the blanks? Or suggest alternate models?

Arathorn

 

[Esckey]

I'm not sure about filling in the blanks, infact I think you got everything that I can think of. But I want to know, what happens when you change government/civics...would you get anarchy like what you get now? or just less anarchy for less of a change. Never understood why it takes just as many anarchy turns to go from democracy to republic as it does to go from democracy to dictatorship

 

[Global Nexus]

Well, since they're implementing what appears to be Alpha Centauri's social engineering, maybe there'll be similar penalties? Spending gold on changes, and the more change you do the more gold is charged for it...

 

[GoodGame]

I mostly agree with your Government and Legals suggestions.


I'd rename Totalitarianism as Dictatorial (same description though).

Oligarchy is literally "rule by the rich" Hegemony is closer to the concept you describe.

Since Monarchies tend to have complications in transfer of power, I'd go with Dynasty rather than Hereditary.

Totally agree on your other government suggestions.




The moderate Legal would be "Juris Prudence" ----appeals and other considerations of the rights of plaintaints and defendents, and being judged by one's peers.

None & Vigilantism are kind of hard choices. I don't believe anarchy, viglanteism, etc.. ever is truly law, it just manages to evade the legal system.

Tribal law would be a good 'first' choice, representing a mix of culture and tradition that the nation naturally falls into first, and any early factional in-fighting the tribe experiences. Trial by Combat would be a sub-set of tribal law.

Theocratic law would probably represent fundamentalist systems ruling from religious inspiration. The make-up of the government is separate from this.


Police State could be more appropriately titled Totalitarianism (although that's almost splitting hairs). In that case the legal system is always right, vigorously and proactively defended, and never questioned (no appeals, etc...). In this case the law simply exists to perpetuate the government. A dictatorship of a single person isn't alway a pre-requisite for that, so it should be separate from government style.


Can't think of another, except maybe Feudal Law or Vassalage, in which feudal bonds between classes/ranks of people are the main basis of laws. Kind of an advanced tribal law that is well-defined in obligations/castes. I think that is historically accurate, and the earliest non-theocratic, formal law.


I disagree with some of your labor choices.
On one hand, you can break it all down, but on the other, if you separate out politics, economics, and government structure, it boils down to how much freedom individuals have over what they own, who they can buy from, and who they can sell to.
Free Market (labor) is a definite choice. Total freedom
given to the individual in terms of economics they choose
to participate in.

Slavery is nearly 100% the opposite of free market
labor.

Everything else is some degree of 'forced labor' for the
state. Putting exact terms on it is subjective.

This civic almost certainly needs a continuous mathematic slider bar, with new slider settings rewarded for researching techs like Emancipation, Unionization, Laissez Faire, etc... The default would be about 50%, with slavery being a possibility from the start. All other possible slider settings would have to be researched.

There'd have to be direct proportions of derived bonuses and penalties calculated from the bar. E.g. a happiness modifier, an economic modifier, a productivity (hammer) modifier, a research modifier, a culture modifer etc...



I like your Economics choices. I'd change the None default to Tribal (no one really starts all alone, except maybe in the modern world).


I semi-agree with your Religious choices. I think the main choices are to describe religious-cultral traits, not only religious-legal traits. I'd make Theocracy a Legal choice.

For Religion:
Tolerance: Tolerant of other religions (basically null
effect)
Crusader: Enforces one religion, actively purges
heresies in its culture, and antagonizes all
other religions in the world, and the nations
that support them.
Atheist: Disallows religion within the culture.
(probably encourages science as a natural
bonus)
Devout: Strongly encourages one religion, but not too
crusade. Slightly tolerant, but may occasionally purge it's own culture of heresies.

I've been trying to get an idea of what choices you can make for civics, to effect your government. Facts are these....

5 types of Civics. Government, Legal, Labor, Economy, Religion. Each has 5 sub-types. Some mentioned types of civics are Pacifistic, Universal Suffereage, Free Speech, Slavery, Emancipation, Serfdom, Polic State, Theocracy, but it's not said which goes where.

Now, it's possible each of the 5 sub-types is an "on/off" thing, so you can turn on/off slavery or turn on/off free speech or something like that. The comments tend to make me believe, however, that they are options that open up over time. Note, this is primarily speculation.

So, what could those options be? Well, this is essentially pure speculation, trying to tie together some ideas from previous games, what has been said, and my own guesses/hopes. I also consider gameplay reasons for these things and also include my guesses on what the various civics might mean that way.

Government: I'm taking this to mean the way the leader(s) are chosen -- how is it that certain people get power?

Totalitarian -- my guess for the start -- a single despot siezes power in a fierce grab -- force to the front -- like Despotism (and maybe Fascism) in Civ3
Hereditary -- like kings/queens or the various family dynasties found in various parts of the world -- a bit more stable than totalitarian but probably causes some unhappines/cultural problems
Oligarchy -- rule by an "enlightened" few -- tried a few times and a popular conception of how things might work. Not sure what traits to infer,
Republic -- limited voting -- the ancient Greek model and possibly the same model for the US, at least its early years. Many people vote but less than half, say. Reasonable happiness but pressure from the more enlightened civilizations.
Universal Sufferage -- democracy from Civ3, more or less. Everybody votes. Should be more chaotic in certain ways than the other govts and negative game effects (wars, civic/religious pressure from other civs) will have greater effect.

Legal: How is justice dispensed/enforced? What's the method?

Police State -- Government cracks down HARD on misbehavior -- most closed borders but also probably lowest culture/happiness -- hard to spy on or send missionaries
None -- Start state -- law is up to each individual to determine and enforce
Vigililantism -- Small groups take it upon themselves to enforce the law as they best see it -- culture/law/effectiveness varies significantly from place to place
Organized Justice -- courts, police, appeals, jails...
???

Labor:

Slavery -- People work because they have to, fear for their lives or families, repressed groups, low efficiency but cheap cost -- Start state
Serfdom -- People work because they have little choice, society demands it of them to survive, close to slavery but a bit more freedom. More efficiency but more cost, too
Emancipation -- Slaves are freed, people are "paid" to work, high cost but reasonable efficiency
Conscription -- Govt forces people to spend a portion of their life working for the govt good. Semi-efficient and happiness but greater potential for good and bad than serfdom
Anarchy -- Some people work when they want to. Little gets done but it's awfully cheap.

Economy: How are goods exchanged? How are things distributed?

None -- Start state. You only have what you can get for yourself.
Barter -- Allows trade with other nations. People trade a bit internally, so some luxes/food shared internally (?) but little tax dollars for govt. benefit
Communism -- Everything is shared completely equally. Really extreme socialism. No personal property, everything is jointly owned. All cities benefit some but little specialization is truly possible. "All are equal" taken to the extreme. [N.B. Name not exactly accurate, but close enough.]
Socialism -- Half of what is made is shared, half kept for personal gain. Some specialization but some cost with that specialization, too.
Capitalism -- Free market. High output work but high maintenance and subject to large fluctuations. High specialization but "outsiders" hard to incorporate in, often.

Religion: What is the state's view of religion? What is official policy?

None -- Start state -- religion just is -- no policy and all kinds of odd things can happen, missionaries have a very easy time but aren't protected
Theocracy -- the state and the religion are one. All cities are expected to conform to the state's religion, whatever that may be.
Atheism -- the state actively seeks out and destroys religion. Missionaries are enemy units. People may or may not like religion but the state fights against it.
Separation from State -- the State tries to divorce itself from all religious decisions. No/limited benefit from religious powers and potential for missionaries/spying is high. Some kind of corresponding benefit, however. ?
???

======================================
Well, that's my take. Just some thoughts I had on what the system *might* look like. I have absolutely no insider information, so this is all just a guess.

I would expect some mini-anarchies to modify one aspect of the civics system. Some civics categories appear to have natural progressions, while others appear to have no "better" options, just options. There seem to be some natural techs that might correspond with enabling various civics options.

Can anybody fill in the blanks? Or suggest alternate models?

Arathorn