Rat 40 - Introduction to CCM

[vmxa]

Upgrading all knights/arques to Hussars/Muskets. LB's upgrade to muskets too. Muskets are also a 4-5 unit so they can finish off a city if / when you run out of hussars.

We would have Asian Muskets and pedia says they are 6/6.

BTW if we cut the salt of Spains, no more strong defenders.

 

[vmxa]

I would say to not worry about the next ages wonders. For one thing, we may want to go with Steam Screw, before Sci Meth, depending on what the world looks like. Second we have a lot of techs, before then.

We can hold an SGL and still get another SGL. I have done that. We would stop all MGL's, but given no armies that may not be a concern.

If you want Leo, going for Free is not to bad as it also offers a wonder. The problem we have is we have so little to use to get more than a handful of turns into a pre.

MT and Cavs is going be be useful to deal with the rest of the continent, especially as some muskets will be in play by then. Leo is currently worth about 28 beakers to use.

It won't be worth much more as we are using all tiles, but 1. We would have to take a tile to get the last possible tile.

East India says extra commerce in each worked tile. I presume it means for the city it is in, not the empire.

It does not matter much to me, I see no problme holding for Leo or even into the next age. This ages wonders are not as good as the early one in the next age, but we may get one or more of them anyway.

We must be the top beaker maker in the game and will steady pull away as we get bigger and bigger.

 

[vmxa]

Ok, I checked Fascism and there is one real negative point, the killer blow for me and that is no cash rushing. What to do with all the cash then? I rather chose Communism then. Got a nice SM for a 75% production boost and cheap barracks in addition to NO tile penalty.

Are you sure about the no cash rush? No tile penalty for Fascism or Commie.

 

[vmxa]

BTW MDI upgrade to Asian Muskets. We can really increase the safely of the wokrers with these dudes.

 

[barbslinger]

As for government I am not so sure which is better: communism or facism.

We are exploring! I thought I read that the only government that is pop rush is despotism. All others are paid.

 

[Civinator]

As for government I am not so sure which is better: communism or facism. Maybe Civinator can tell us more?

Great you are talking now about governments, as I took a big effort in forming them for CCM. As you all still know, CCM is designed to switch governments more frequently and I hope, that even experienced gamers can take some profit by doing so.

In CCM the question -even for warmongers like you all are - is not communism or facism -or monarchy or theocracy or democracy or despotism -there can be situations in CCM when each of them could be the best choice. Besides despotism all governments have paid labor.

Fascism looks splendid for warmongers (and that is what it should do). The big backside of that government, that wasn´t discussed here yet, is: It is xenophobic. This means, you only can get growth in culture if more than half of the city population belongs to that civ. The consequence in gameplay is that you have a lot of cityradius-1-cities in new conquered districts. Even your "culturebombs" wouldn´t work here as long as the population barrier isn´t broken. So it can be a great government for conquering bigger regions, but than something other must come.

Communism doesn´t have that culture barrier and is great in spying. So most CCM prebetatesters -who also are warmongers- had a tendency to use this government more frequently. In the next version the master spies for that government will be one step less qualified.

Don´t call me mad, but consider that even democracy can be a great government for warmongers in CCM, presupposed you have a massive basis in religious happiness to balance warweariness for a longer time - and don´t forget you can pay cities of other civs.

In late phases of CCM-testgames I frequently had the situation, that all forms of governments were used by AI civs. The clue to success is to switch the governments according to the situations you have to master in your game.

 

[barbslinger]

- and don´t forget you can pay cities of other civs.

I don't understand what you mean by this?

 

[vmxa]

Fascism looks splendid for warmongers (and that is what it should do). The big backside of that government, that wasn´t discussed here yet, is: It is xenophobic. This means, you only can get growth in culture if more than half of the city population belongs to that civ. The consequence in gameplay is that you have a lot of cityradius-1-cities in new conquered districts. Even your "culturebombs" wouldn´t work here as long as the population barrier isn´t broken. So it can be a great government for conquering bigger regions, but than something other must come.

Actually I did mention the culture issue (post 400), that we have to be the majority of the pop. If culture bombs do not work, that is a bit of an issue, but not huge IMO.

It is a big help to slow them down, but we will not have a big issue with them anyway. I cannot address spies as I am not sure how important they would be to us. I suspect not real critical.

All in all I have no real preference. If you want to try one or the other just for giggles, that is good enough for me. I suspect culture bombs are going to be less frequent as we go forward.

The defenders will be hard to kill with even Lawyers, unless we can get to attack damaged ones. By the time we have rails and have them up this continet will probably be cleared.

 

[barbslinger]

The xenophobe setting so that we can't culture bomb isn't that big an issue IMHO. By the time we get overseas and taking cities we may be able to produce workers. There is also a tech that gives double growth rate. Once we get a city, we starve it down, add a worker and bomb it.

Perhaps we can swap to Theocracy to get 80% research and try out Fascism about the middle of next tech tree.

I don't think we will lose either way. Looking forward to getting the map of the other continent to see who is who.

 

[vmxa]

Not much point in going to Theo for 80%, when Fascism is 90%, is there? I mean, if the 80 is what you were after. If it something else like the culture that is different.

 

[barbslinger]

Fascism isn't until after Nationalism which will be a while. Theocracy has 3 nice points. Support is 10 free-5town-5city-4metro while Monarchy is
4 free-4-4-3, while unit cost is the same amount per unit over the limits. Theo corruption is Minimal while Monarchy is Nuisance. Science level is 80% while Monarchy is 70%. Both have 0% WW.
All together, we would make more money through unit cost savings to spend on rushing units and we would get a 14% jump in Research.

Edit - I just saw the tile penalty. That might kill my whole argument. What kind of penalty is this? Food only or cash too.
Edit - It is food and shields. No more than 2 per tile.

I have been using Theocracy in my solo games and have loved it but it would be hard to calculate the ROI for a switch.

 

[ThomAnder]

Fascism isn't until after Nationalism which will be a while. Theocracy has 3 nice points. Support is 10 free-5town-5city-4metro while Monarchy is
4 free-4-4-3, while unit cost is the same amount per unit over the limits. Theo corruption is Minimal while Monarchy is Nuisance. Science level is 80% while Monarchy is 70%. Both have 0% WW.
All together, we would make more money through unit cost savings to spend on rushing units and we would get a 14% jump in Research.

lurker's comment: Theo is pop rush if i recall properly, so no use for all those money saved...

 

[barbslinger]

lurker's comment: Theo is pop rush if i recall properly, so no use for all those money saved...

Not in CCM, only Despot's pop rush.

 

[Civinator]

The xenophobe setting so that we can't culture bomb isn't that big an issue IMHO. By the time we get overseas and taking cities we may be able to produce workers. There is also a tech that gives double growth rate. Once we get a city, we starve it down, add a worker and bomb it.

This is the common methode to handle xenophobia in C3C. But you loose a lot of population and therefore production, research and money. In CCM democracy has a much better quote of assimilation than in normal C3C. So to switch to democracy after fascism can be an interesting alternative.

There is no tech in CCM to double the growth rate and even the option of a GW allowing this in standard Civ 3 (Longevity) is not available in CCM. The reason is, to counter that common methode to handle xenophobia.

 

[vmxa]

I'm not going to lose any sleep about lost productivity in the unteenth town. It is only temporary anyway. It will grow back. I mean you may have 50 or 60 towns and the 51st or 61st has to be starve, not a big deal.

Every town after that can starve as well, it will not really impact us at all. We have lots of cash and each nation will be giving us more and more. We either sell them stuff or we take their towns. Either way we get more cash.

The one thing about being limited to 70%, is you pile up even more gold. If we end up with 90% research, the flow will slow a bit. Still you gain a lot when you dial down at the break through.

 

[barbslinger]

Double growth from hospitals from Medicine tech, 140 shields gives double growth to city it is built in.

 

[Greebley]

I kind of like the idea of trying Democracy. Getting ahead in tech is probably the best way to keep losses down. We also have enough cities to afford shorter wars.

 

[ThERat]

Actually I agree to try democracy. We will have issues with veteran troops as barracks are non existent. However, we can upgrade our troops in our capital. And if we have an overpowering force, we should be able to have short wars.

 

[Northern Pike]

View attachment 254781, end of turn

 

[vmxa]

Does demo have WW? If so what is it offering that we want to mess around with WW? I just do not remember what it offers. I presume 100% research. No pop lost for switch.

I am not so sure we will have short wars. First we could face additonal nations on the other land. Second they probably have a fair number of units when we get there and third we will not be able to ship all the units we want in one wave, unless we wait for a lot more boats.

All of these things could be of not real concern, but what do we get that we need in return?

In the end, we can do anything we want. I just want to understand, which makes the most sense. Then we can do one of the others, just because we can.