Rat 40 - Introduction to CCM

I think the intention was to make it very difficult to get veteran troops while you are a democracy. Looking at real world USA, that might actually not be the truth. USA leading wars all the time and everywhere should have plenty of veteran if not elite troops.

Anyway, back to the game. I think we could head for communism as research won't be bad with so many cities, so many rushed science boosters. We will have to fight a lot given the big continents waiting, so a no WW government will really help.
 
OTOH, the USA gets its veteran and elite troops by colossal military expenditures, not by being the sort of regimented society (Germany until 1945, say) that inherently produces good soldiers. So perhaps the 500-shield barracks are an accurate idea.

Anyway, we seem to be moving towards agreement on communism as our next government.
 
And Hidden Reserve is not, of course, a choice actually offered on the tech trees. I'm sure Civinator will clarify all this eventually.

It´s a pleasure for me to clarify your questions about barracks :):

In my eyes barracks are the most powerful building in Civ 3, but many civers are not aware of that, as barracks normally are available from start and cheap. The power of barracks in my eyes is less the production of veteran units. In my eyes the real power of these buildings is the possibility to heal damaged landunits in one turn. If you attack with tons of mounted units and than you return 60 or hundred redlined units to a city with barracks and let them rest there one turn, you get 60 or hundred fresh units in one turn. What else building has such a production rate for landunit-hitpoints?

So I decided it is a good idea for a different style of landwarfare in CCM, to make the barracks a part of the balancing of governments in this mod:

For fascism and theocracy (here monasteries) barracks are cheap and give happiness (and monasteries additional science).

In communism and monarchy barracks are cheap and neutral (in monarchie´s earlier times castles give additional protection).

Republic is so strong in normal Civ 3, that most players have this government from the time it´s available to the end of the game. So here I needed something to reduce the attraction of that government. I decided to give them no barracks for reasons of gamebalance, so this has no approach to history.

For democracy I intended to give them a sw: The Army headquarters. The basis for this building you are seeing in the editor: the barracks democracy –but this building is not available at present in CCM. Testgames proofed, that democracy is such a strong government in CCM (not only the gigantic research rate, but also the special buildings, especially migrant workers, who give you a very cheap 25% boost in production), that such an Army headquarter could be too much for game balance.

One word to the statement: In governments where no barracks are available, units can only be upgraded in the palace:

Even in these governments there are more options for upgrading landunits than the palace:

Cities that have the worker houses, the Military academy, the ordonance factory, the siege workshop, the great guild (as long as these buildings didn´t go obsolete), US cavalry, Marine Corps all can upgrade units, heal them and produce veteran units as well as the palace.

If cleverly used in different cities these buildings allow even strong armies in republic and democracy.
 
I think you are nearly right about the power of barracks. It is not the healing of large numbers of attackers. This is very strong, most would heal in 1 turn or 2 anyway.

Its real power is not going to be seen in this game. It is to heal in one turn for units that did not move, WHEN used in your town. IOW I get the most from a barracks on defense. Now I get to have all the units that survived available at full health the next turn for defense.

This is most powerful when using armies to defend in straight C3C. It is the only way I could expect to defend wave after wave of several hundred attackers, with a much smaller force.
 
Civinator, thanks for the full discussion. :thumbsup: It's good to have the concepts of game balance in CCM made explicit.
 
It is to heal in one turn for units that did not move, WHEN used in your town. IOW I get the most from a barracks on defense.
this would hurt a lot if attacked while in a democracy and defending outer cities. 2 turns anarchy, a turn to rush a barracks. As long as you are at peace in a builders game Democracy looks great.
I have a rail-net up in my solo and it is not that bad to upgrade anymore but unit building is off for now. There are so many nice wonders at this point the capital is on those.
 
Its real power is not going to be seen in this game. It is to heal in one turn for units that did not move, WHEN used in your town. IOW I get the most from a barracks on defense. Now I get to have all the units that survived available at full health the next turn for defense.

I completely agree. :yup: The example with the attackers was only -well, an example. :)
 
Looking at real world USA, that might actually not be the truth. USA leading wars all the time and everywhere should have plenty of veteran if not elite troops.

I always felt the idea of demo being so war unfriendly was not as realistic as they claimed. All popualtions are fine with wars, as long as it is going well and not costing them directly.

BTW America is not a demoncracy, it is a republic and we all know that is ok for wars. :D

Was there an I got it?
 
No; it's about forty hours since I posted the save, and we have no evidence that Greebley knows he's up. So if you'd like to play right now, I'd suggest that you go ahead, and we can fit Greebley in after you.
 
I give him till tomorow as it is probably better for everyone else to play on the weekend. Weekdays are fine for me. I know he finished his set in GR.
 
I'll be going back tonight, will still have internet access every now and then, but won't be able to play. Thus, a slight slowdown of the game is not the worst case scenario at the moment.

I agree to wait one more day to see whether Greebley can play.
 
I can wait. I've got solo fish to fry right now. Greebley will make short work of Spain and have us prepped for Portugal I'm sure.
 
Don't worry about it. I always get impatient when the game is in limbo, with no one responsible for playing. ;)

BTW, we have two Spanish workers right at the front in the hope that one of our slavers will create a Spanish slave. Then we'll be able to try using a garrison offensively, buiding it in one turn and adding the slave to the job last so that only it is consumed. Just an option you can experiment with if you're interested.
 
One important point about Democracy. Is the minimum number of turns less than 4 turns like RaR? We can do PP in 4 turns. Demo will only be useful if the minimum is 2 (or 3).

If we are doing fastest research at 50% science in Monarchy (for 4 turns PP) then democracy is pointless.
 
The minimum research costs in CCM are 4 turns.
 
Preturn:
I steal France's world map. We succeed.
Fortify our science leader

IBT: Madrid is attacked and we lose a unit.
Germany and France sign a peace treaty.
French are building Arc de Triumph
Start PP. We could trade away Mil Trad to France. Decide not to.

1630 AD: Start Military Academy in Osaka. It appears this works as barracks even in Democracy, so we would have 2 spots at least.
Capture Barcelona. 2 losses I think with some retreats.
We get another Monk.

IBT: Lose a Hussar on defense from an Elephant
Valencia Flips

1635 AD: Made the mistaken assumption I could upgrade Hussars to Cav not realizing they need some hot kisses to upgrade (or something like that). Should have checked before I moved out of Spanish lands.

IBT: Just bombardment

1640 AD: Move back next to Spanish town.

1645 AD: Capture Seville with about 3 losses.
Went for Scandanavian maps. Another Success. We now have the outline and much of the interior of the other large continent. We probably want Mongolian, British, or Turkish maps next none of whom we have met. Could also go for Italian, Portuguese, Incan, Mayan for interiors we can't see, but this seems lower priority.

IBT: Scandanavia offers us a deal for a lux. I accept.
We get PP now. I go for Free Artistry. Several Wonders there.

1650 AD: Moving on next city. Free Artistry is 5 turns.

IBT: We lose dyes.

1655 AD: We capture Pamplona. Lost like 4 due to bad RNG or big bonuses to defense.

IBT: We lose one of the War Galleons defending the Galleons for getting to the Spanish island.
Complete National Exchange.
Arc de Triumph completed by France, MesoAmerican Christianity completed by Mayans

Found a sort-of bug. It looks like the Galleon defended rather than the War Galleon so the War Galleon provided no defense. I think it is because the defense is the same but the WG have 2 defensive fire. Therefore they use the Galleon first for defense? The galleon that defended is down to 2 hp and the WG are all full health, plus the ship that sank seems to be a Galleon. I think it would be better if the WG defended the Galleons. Why do Frigates defend def 2 transport ships like galleons in the regular game? It may be due to the fact that Frigates move one more square so you can fortify them over the galleons - but I think (am not sure though) that the Frigates defend even if not fortified. Or maybe the fact that they don't have defensive fire? You could also give Galleons one less hp that WG if other things don't work.

1660 AD: Move on small Spanish town.

IBT: We get Military Academy in Osaka. Finish Supreme Court. Hebrews get Holy book.

1665 AD: Destroy Asturias. Land 12 troops on the Spanish island
Start moving on Vitoria - hope we have enough troops.

1670 AD: We Capture the Spanish island city Zargoza.
A ship reaches the Mongols and another map steal Succeeds.
Make some trades for older techs.
Also decide to trade Mil Trad and some resources to France for Medicine

IBT: We get Free Artistry.

1675 AD:
Capture Vitoria and Spain is destroyed.

Notes:
I left the Science leader active because I was thinking we might want to rush Leonardo's for the science boost. It seems as good as anything else at least. Free Artistery gives several wonders and I started work on them all. Another possibility would be the Great Playhouse which Osaka is currently building in 9 turns. I think we will get all the wonders though whether we use the leader or not. We do get Leo's faster research 12 turns earlier - which is why I think we should use it. I think we can reach other wonders we want first since we can direct our tech to be first so I don't see saving the science leader as being necessary for a key wonder.

We have an attack force of 34 units next to the Portuguese border for next turn.

Built a lot of infrastructure.

Sorry about the lost Cavalry unit. It is sort-of guarding the desert approach after we attack Portugal, but I should have used a lesser unit to do that.

We have a bunch of units on boats and it just now occurred to me that we might as well use them to take out Washington.

I also used up both Settlers.

On my previous comment most techs are taking 5 turns at max research. Democracy will be overkill since 4 is the minimum and not worth it. I think it would be worthwhile to lower this value. These games with more techs and faster research make research faster - as shown by the fact we can already almost keep up in Monarchy (5 instead of 4 is close). I see no reason for Democracy and the lack of barracks.

My suggestion for this mod is to consider lowering the 4 to at least 3 (2 in RaR does tend to be fast, but it doesn't spoil it IMO) to bring Democracy more into play. I don't think Demo would be chosen much as it is. It also makes the modern era more likely to be played in (which I like to do).

I couldn't figure out if we ever get Rails, but it looks like no? If no it will make this huge map a lot slower to play. If you update the civopedia to state it one way or the other (looking at rails it says Steam Power - looking at steam power I see no rails).

 
As you probably noticed we now know the shape of the other continents. There could be a civ hidden away so I think we should clear the fog of war to check. Russia, America, and China all started on a tiny island - I think there was difficulty placing all 31 civs.

I think we were missing 7 contacts or so.
 
The way I think it works is that when a stack all have the same defense, the AI will put up the lessor unit. In your case the War Galleon was of more value in the engines eye as it can attack.

In the frigate/galleon scenario it is often the case that the frigates will have a larger HP and henced be declared better defenders than the galleon, often just regulars.
 
I am good with rushing Leo. What is the issue that you see with rails? We need Steam Power and then Compound Steam. We need coal and iron after that. We should be good to go.

I guess I can wait till this evening to see what others think. If Barbslinger would prefer to play using the weekend, I can swap.
 
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