Rate the Beliefs - part I: Pantheon beliefs

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Worth to mention is that you can still found a religion on deity and win a religious victory without much if even any warfare. Even a civ without any religious bonus at all can still generate large amount of faith just from holy sities. A shrine a temple and 2 specialist is 10 faith per turn with zero adjacency bonus and is accessible quite early in the game. With reformation + worship building a holy site can generate near 30 faith per turn.

The only really goal you have if you plan to win a religious victory the "orthodox" way is to maximize how much faith you can generate which is pretty much the same thing as maximizing how many holy sities you have. So simply pack cities as close together as possible, chop out the holy sities and chop/purchase/build the religious buildings. Get culture somehow so you can get to reformation as quickly as possible. And such case 500-1000 faith per turn look quite doable and even more so if you are lucky with parthenon and religion.

If you are bored at easy deity game a religious victory with minimal conquest may add atleast some challenge to the game.

Faith is utterly useless

No it is not. Just because the game make conquest ridiculous easy and cheap don't make the rest of the game mechanics useless. Add in some house rules such as not declaring war to kill religious agents (which I would say is an exploit) and really try to avoid using military much (because of ai weakness in that area) and the game become a bit more enjoyable In my opinion. Not saying the ai have a chance but its still In my opinion more fun giving the ai some help.

Faith is useful for national parks (culture victory) and religious agents (religious victory).

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

God of war is winning a battle within 8 tiles of a Holy Site.... *any* Holy Site, it doesn't have to be yours. That makes a HUGE difference if you are going out warmongering (which with higher settler costs and broken alliances, why not??).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

why not??)

Because it is too easy

 

[fodazd]

I actually think River Goddess is the best Pantheon, and I take it every single time (the AI does not seem to be interested in it, so I always get it).

Reasoning: Once I have 10+ Cities, Luxury Resources are spread pretty thin, so anything that gives additional Amenities helps. Since I build most of my Cities somewhere in the Proximity of a river anyway, it's usually not to hard to place the Holy Site next to it. Of course, this only applies if you go for religion and build Holy Sites.

 

[UWHabs]

They're all very situational, which I actually love about them. I just wish there was a way (or a civ) to let me choose a second pantheon later. Too often I pick it early based mostly on what's around my first or second city, and then after picking it I discover a new area that would go very well for a new pantheon.

Otherwise, again it depends too much on the area. Some people seem to not like stone quarries, but I had one game (didn't actually finish it, though), where my capital had 7 quarries visible on turn 1. Plus there were another 5 or 6 around where my 2nd and 3rd cities would go. That much faith early is a huge boost. Another game I had a Russia/Tundra start, and got some pretty insane lavras going. They were each running +8 or +9 adjacency, which made it actually better to run the double adjacency bonus than the double faith buildings bonus (although I think i ran both and was putting out enough faith for an apostle a turn).

I do think otherwise that the harvesting one is one of the better ones overall, just because I'll naturally chop a lot of trees and rainforests, so even without actually harvesting it still gives a ton of faith. And there's a "bug" with it which gives you an extra bonus for harvesting crabs or copper, since they give more gold than you get food/production from other harvests, they also give extra faith. So while chopping a forest might give 50 hammers and thus 50 faith, harvesting a crab will give 100 gold and 100 faith then. But I haven't run the numbers to really figure out if it is better than others, , and balancing faith vs the other yields is always a tough choice.

 

[antimony]

once i took desert folklore and put a holy district inside 6 desert tiles, one with a mountain and one with a natural wonder (Kilimanjaro) i got +8 adjacency bonus, which is pretty neat.

Just got a +6 with Nubia + desert folklore, first time I was happy to get Hildegard de Bingen as a GS.

 

[MadDjinn]

God of war is winning a battle within 8 tiles of a Holy Site.... *any* Holy Site, it doesn't have to be yours. That makes a HUGE difference if you are going out warmongering (which with higher settler costs and broken alliances, why not??).

yeah, I'm pretty sure this is still a bug. But for now, 'any' holy site will do.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

yeah, I'm pretty sure this is still a bug. But for now, 'any' holy site will do.

But, it's not a bug. It's the actual description of the belief in-game (not what was printed here). Next to *your* holy site was Civ V.

 

[Japper007]

Wall o'text warning

3 (if Russia, otherwise 0) Dance of the Aurora: Holy Site districts get +1 Faith from adjacent Tundra tiles.
3 (if Brazil, otherwise 0) Sacred Path: Holy Site districts get +1 Faith from adjacent Rainforest tiles.
0 - Desert Folklore: Holy Site districts get +1 Faith from adjacent Desert tiles.

These pantheons suffer from the problem that they either rely on having a lot of a terrain type you shouldn't want a whole lot of (Tundra/Desert) or force you to keep around suboptimal terrain (unimprovable Jungle tiles, that crush Appeal and are infinetly better just getting chopped). As Russia Tundra is pretty manegeable though and they can get great faith income with this, and Brazil wants to keep Rainforests around for their adjacency (still think Brazil is better off going cultural though) . On top of that you have to build Holy Sites to exploit them, which are a suboptimal build in general (again except for Russia).

0 (maybe 1 as China)- Monument of the Gods: +15% Production to Ancient and Classical era Wonders.

Terrible, a very minor bonus to something that isn't even that great to have to begin with. Unless you manage to land the Colloseum with it it's just a waste of a Pantheon. As China it can be a stronger boost, but then China doesn't have to go to far out of it's way to grab early wonders anyways...

5 - Lady of the Reeds and Marshes: +1 Production from Marsh, Oasis, and Floodplains.

Situational, but man is it strong if that situation presents itself! It turns a Marsh into a 3/1 tile. I'll take that over Farming it (which also cost you two builder charges) anyday. Floodplain starts just become godly with this pantheon.

4- God of the Sea: +1 Production from Fishing Boats.

See above^, it's pretty much the same power and just as situational as Reeds and Marches, except coastal cities aren't very great unless you have no other choise.

0 - God of the Craftsmen: +1 Production from Mines over Strategic resources.

By far the worst of the +production pantheons, I usually can't even see Iron when I get to Pantheons and you'll be lucky to have three or so sources of iron and niter later on...

5 - God of the Open Sky: +1 Culture from Pastures.
4 - Oral Tradition: +1 Culture from Banana, Citrus, Cotton, Dyes, Silk, Spices, and Sugar Plantations.

The culture pantheons are very strong indeed, with open sky edging out oral trad because pastures are better tiles to work and are probably the first thing you work. Early game culture is extremely important, the faster you get the early government the better.

0 - River Goddess: +1 Amenity to cities if they have a Holy Site district adjacent to a River.

Hot steaming garbage, forcing you to build Holy Sites on rivers means they block of Wonders and Commercial Hubs. I usually ignore amenities in favor of more pop and cities low or even negative amenities isn't as much of a demerit as one would think in this game.

3 - Divine Spark: +1 Great Person point from Holy Site (Prophet), Campus (Scientist), and Theater Square (Writer) districts.

Meh, by the time I get to the Great People I care about (i.e. Industrial and later) I usually have enough Districts and projects that I'm steamrolling through them anyways.

2 - Goddess of the Hunt: +1 Food from Camps.
2 - Goddess of Festivals: +1 Food from Wine, Incense, Cocoa, Tobacco, Coffee, and Tea Plantations.

Food on poor tiles is nice to have, but I'd rather get something else.

0 - Fertility Rites: City growth rate is 10% higher.

Doesn't do much of anything for you, early game you hit the housing cap very fast anyways, and after neighbourhood you grow rapidly regardless because of farming triangles

1 - Religious Idols: +1 Faith from Mines over Luxury and Bonus resources.

Better than craftsmen, but only just

3 - Stone Circles: +2 Faith from Quarries.

On a start with lots of flatland stone, a cool pantheon to run if nothing else seems appealing.

0 - God of the Forge: +25% Production toward Ancient and Classical military units.

Between agoge, cheap upgrades and low unit costs in this era in general, I don't have any problem getting units out in the early game at all.

0 - Initiation Rites: +50 Faith for each Barbarian Outpost cleared.
0 - Goddess of the Harvest: Harvesting a resource or removing a feature receives Faith equal to the other yield's quantity.
0 - God of War: Bonus Faith equal to 50% of the strength of each enemy unit killed within 8 tiles of a Holy Site district you own.

I don't like these sorts of "burst" bonuses at all, very hard to get any real advantage out of at all

0 - God of Healing: Increases Healing by +30 in your Holy Site district, or any adjacent tiles.

Maybe if you get rushed early and somehow went for a Holy Site instead of something smarter, like... say, units and walls?

0 - Religious Settlements: Border expansion rate is 15% faster.

No city in this game will ever grow fast enough to work it's full three rings, so you're better of IMHO just cramming them all closetogether civ 4 style. Because of this smallpox strategy I hardly purchase tiles at all, except to annoy MP opponents, in which case it's more trolling than anything

 

[Abraxis]

People really have no respect for Amenities huh

I think something has to be done about the visibility of its bonuses. Something about how the cities look on the map should reflect the bonus for each city, like at +10% there are fireworks going off over the city all the time like the old "We Love The King Day" celebrations, and something less extreme for +5%.
Currently the only feedback you get (without digging around in the horrible city UI) for it is if you don't have enough amenities, so that's all anyone seems to care about.

 

[EpicWestern]

Really think divine spark is the best pantheon by far, to the point that its overpowered and needs to be nerfed.

In cultural and science games its absolutely mandatory since great people are so key in achieving those victory types.

In religious games, on deity at least, getting your great prophet is difficult enough that its usually needed just for those few extra points early on. Some games where you're Arabia, have an extra wildcard policy slot (for +2 prophet points card), or games in which opposing civs are lagging in prophet points for whatever reason you can get away with not picking it. If that's the case usually God of the Open Sky (+1 pasture culture) is probably best. Lots of other options can still be decent though.

 

[MadDjinn]

People really have no respect for Amenities huh

I think something has to be done about the visibility of its bonuses. Something about how the cities look on the map should reflect the bonus for each city, like at +10% there are fireworks going off over the city all the time like the old "We Love The King Day" celebrations, and something less extreme for +5%.
Currently the only feedback you get (without digging around in the horrible city UI) for it is if you don't have enough amenities, so that's all anyone seems to care about.

They're probably doing it wrong

But the 'holy site on river' pantheon isn't that useful, even for me. I can usually find a better pantheon than one that makes me add holy sites to rivers, and possibly get no adjacency bonuses for it. Let alone those cities that have no river.

 

[UWHabs]

They're probably doing it wrong

But the 'holy site on river' pantheon isn't that useful, even for me. I can usually find a better pantheon than one that makes me add holy sites to rivers, and possibly get no adjacency bonuses for it. Let alone those cities that have no river.

Yeah I've played a few games where I'm swimming in amenities and it's pretty awesome. I mean, if that +1 pushes your city to happy, then it's worth 5% to all yields, which is pretty damn nice. And my last game I was running +5 in my cities for a time, which let me trade away one of mine for about 18 gold per turn. At least, until my cities grew to use them all up. But to be running at +5 in each city without an entertainment complex is pretty nice, still.

But yeah, only getting +1 from holy sites on rivers is still a little situational. I think the only time I'd even think about using that one is if I was playing a game where I expected to build a bunch of holy sites, and when mapping out their best adjacency locations, they happened to be riverside. Maybe if it was a weaker condition - riverside cities get +1 amenity with a holy site, I could see that being good enough to pick ahead of some of the other choices.

 

[spfun]

I only play with about 4 cities normally so for me its a complete no-brainer to pick divine spark every single time no matter what resources/terrain is nearby.

 

[Ferocitus]

Thanx, but several of the opinions expressed in that thread focus on single beliefs or seem to be flavored by the fact that game is very new at that point. It would be nice to have a full rating I think.

No problem: my memory isn't what it was.

The problem with a poll might be that you will end up with a "flat curve".
Responses will be coloured by what type of game respondents like to play,
and so you might end up with results that show that preference, and not
necessarily the "best" all-round or most useful pantheon.

 

[Amrunril]

I'm not going to do a full ranking, since its hard to compare generalized and terrain specific pantheons on a single scale, but there are some specific pantheons I thought it would be worth weighing in on:

Desert Folklore/Dance of the Aurora/Sacred Paths: I'm surprised to see so much disagreement about these pantheons- the chance to get 12 faith per holy site (with the appropriate policy) is absolutely amazing, whether you're looking to buy an army with theocracy, build up your infrastructure with Valetta/Jesuit Education, rush great people or simply spread a religion with good founder bonuses. Or win the game religiously, for that matter, if you're playing with settings where that's actually possible. I know desert and tundra are generally bad terrain, but it's possible to take full advantage of these pantheons while still keeping them to the periphery of your cities, and the desert and tundra is in low enough demand for other civs that they'll generally be available even if your early expansion focuses on conventionally stronger/more competitive terrain.

Goddess of Festivals (+1 Food from Wine, Incense, Cocoa, Tobacco, Coffee, and Tea Plantations): This bonus sounds relatively weak on paper, but I actually find myself picking it fairly often, as the starts that have these resources generally tend to be poor in food.

Divine Spark: This is absolutely a strong pantheon, but perhaps not quite as strong as its proponents claim. The plus 1 great prophet point can be huge when it comes to founding a religion, but it does absolutely nothing afterwards, and I'd argue that the games where it makes the difference between founding a religion and not founding one (including most deity games) are usually games where a religion isn't worth the investment it would take to found one. The writer and scientist points are a nice additional bonus, but a substantially weaker one than other GPP abilities, like Stockholm or the Oracle.

Goddess of the Harvest/Initiation Rites: These stand out as being mathematically weak even in the circumstances where they're designed to shine. The map just doesn't have enough barbarian encampments or harvestable resources to break even with even a mediocre Stone Circles or Desert Folklore setup.

God of Healing: I have absolutely no idea what to do with this. It seems like it could change the outcome of a close city defense, but if you can see such a battle far enough in advance to plan your pantheon choice and city placement around it, there are any number of other things you could do to change the outcome. If you're planning to conquer someone with lots of holy sites, it could speed up your advance a bit, but making sure you win the first battle/siege is generally much more important than saving a turn or two of healing afterwards. Besides the presumably unintended synergy with aircraft (I remember this was a think in V, I haven't tested whether it still works in VI), has anyone found a way to use this pantheon effectively?

 

[Lily_Lancer]

My rating of this. I seldom have chance to choose a 5 or 6 score one since they're too popular and too powerful. (Surely to reduce your winning time by at least 10T for any VC condition )I usually end up choosing a 4 score one, or 3 score on some certain situations. 2 or below is not in my consideration since I always have better choices.

3 - Dance of the Aurora: Holy Site districts get +1 Faith from adjacent Tundra tiles, as Russia or Tundra Japan this one can be powerful. （why the other two do not have a good score is because Russia tend to burn on Tundra, not Rainforest or Desert)

1 - Sacred Path: Holy Site districts get +1 Faith from adjacent Rainforest tiles.
0 - Monument of the Gods: +15% Production to Ancient and Classical era Wonders.
3 - Lady of the Reeds and Marshes: +1 Production from Marsh, Oasis, and Floodplains, good choice for a desert start.
4 - God of the Open Sky: +1 Culture from Pastures, pastures are everywhere and can certainly grant you a lot of early culture
1 - Desert Folklore: Holy Site districts get +1 Faith from adjacent Desert tiles.
2 - River Goddess: +1 Amenity to cities if they have a Holy Site district adjacent to a River.
4 - Divine Spark: +1 Great Person point from Holy Site (Prophet), Campus (Scientist), and Theater Square (Writer) districts, reasonable bonus for GP points
3 - God of the Sea: +1 Production from Fishing Boats, if you start alone on a small island you can only choose this.
2 - Goddess of the Hunt: +1 Food from Camps.
2 - Fertility Rites: City growth rate is 10% higher.
2 - Religious Idols: +1 Faith from Mines over Luxury and Bonus resources.
2 - God of the Craftsmen: +1 Production from Mines over Strategic resources.
2 - Goddess of Festivals: +1 Food from Wine, Incense, Cocoa, Tobacco, Coffee, and Tea Plantations.
3 - Oral Tradition: +1 Culture from Banana, Citrus, Cotton, Dyes, Silk, Spices, and Sugar Plantations, early culture is powerful, though plantation is little weaker than pastures.
5 - God of the Forge: +25% Production toward Ancient and Classical military units, giant bonus for early production
1 - Initiation Rites: +50 Faith for each Barbarian Outpost cleared.
2 - God of Healing: Increases Healing by +30 in your Holy Site district, or any adjacent tiles.
2 - Religious Settlements: Border expansion rate is 15% faster.
6 - Goddess of the Harvest: Harvesting a resource or removing a feature receives Faith equal to the other yield's quantity, the bonus is too much, this one is far from balance. Even if its effect reduced to 1/2 it's far more powerful than any other pathenon. (Since this bonus applies to marshes, forests and rainforests , too )
2 - Stone Circles: +2 Faith from Quarries.
1 - God of War: Bonus Faith equal to 50% of the strength of each enemy unit killed within 8 tiles of a Holy Site district you own.

 

[PMac67]

The OP seems to have gone out of the window here ! lolz

I wont do a list sorry... I Choose God of Open Skys always really.... Culture Lag is the biggest problem, at least for me... This Pantheon works from the Off ! You're always gonna have a pasture or 2 early doors and it keeps going throughout the game ! even if it is scaling downwards Most Pantheon beliefs are geared to religion so if you are not playing that way they are not that helpful... Oral tradition and Goddess of festivals are what i usually select after that, If God of open skys is gone ....

 

[PMac67]

6 - Goddess of the Harvest: Harvesting a resource or removing a feature receives Faith equal to the other yield's quantity, the bonus is too much, this one is far from balance. Even if its effect reduced to 1/2 it's far more powerful than any other pathenon. (Since this bonus applies to marshes, forests and rainforests , too )

This is kind of bottom of my list? Can you convince me with empirical evidence maybe ? Even in a religious scenario I just can't see how this Pantheon is Good ?

 

[Lily_Lancer]

This is kind of bottom of my list? Can you convince me with empirical evidence maybe ? Even in a religious scenario I just can't see how this Pantheon is Good ?

You can just do a simple calculation, you start a map, count (forest+rainforest+marsh)*200+ bonus resource*250+ crab and copper*500(Since they yield double when being harvested). This is the amount of extra faith God of Harvest gives you.

For me, usually I think this is about 100,000, consider 150 is a typical number of turns for a game（ As for my Gotm experience, the numbers are 155,175,133,163,118,average= 149, so 150 is a good approximation for a typical game）, considering you may not researched all techs when harvesting, you actually get ~75,000 faith. So this pathenon gives a little more than 500 extra faith/turn. (Which is about a dozen times as other pathenons.) Even the Kongo relic bug (fixed now) which gives 1,452 faith/turn do not produce that much unless you get 5 relics before T75.