Ratha (Indian Chariot) Project

[Blue Monkey]

Or maybe even the OP? This is meant to be a ratha - not a reskin of a chariot from another game.

 

[7ronin]

Never in the history of Civ3 has one unit had a more difficult birth. I have no way of helping except to offer encouragement and thanks to those who have persevered. If for no other reason, someone should make a scenario/mod just so this unit can be used.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Thank you for the support. Several people have commented that the unit will have a home in a scenario of their design. So it will definitely get used. Thanks to Takhisis we have a model. That only took three years. with the growing interest the animations - hopefully - will be done in a lot less time.

 

[Wolfshade]

someone should make a scenario/mod just so this unit can be used.

I will use it too - and many people will, with the credits, of course. I'm speaking this obvious thing not to show off myself very smart, but to warn some persons who never read important basics.

 

[Blue Monkey]

In your picture the armor seems mythical, I can do a version like it.
But what historical period does this chariot belong to? And do you have any carvings, remains or other visual guidance for historical armor for the period?

Haven't forgotten this. I've been searching the books on hand. I have dependable descriptions - visual evidence is scarce. Found one or two possible images, but I need to scan them.

 

[Vinduu]

Sorry, but what i see is a white elephant ratha that fit for a king but not a warrior. The picture i post was a practical ratha although it was Europa Barbarorum II design, please forgive me if any offense.

 

[Wolfshade]

OK, some misunderstanding takes place.

but to warn some persons who never read important basics.

It wasn't about 7ronin (man, ), it was about Vinduu.

Vin, man, we're really damn happy of your appearance on the forum with correct pics of proper units. Before you we had nothing, and you brought a light to our eternal darkness - now we have absolute truth, we have everything!
Fairly saying, I'm tired of your "truth". Of your inability to learn about BBCode tags, of your inability to respect someone's work, about your inability to understand 1 simple but very important thing - these guys spent years on research about the Ratha, for example, but one day you came and "opened" their eyes with the correct & "practical" unit pics downloaded from 1 of hundreds forums on the internet. Man, you think you're doing right? Man, you're not.

Leave your "sorry" for yourself. Think first and then do, not vice versa.

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

wolfshade, congratulations on you post - u seem to understand my sort of humor...

 

[Blue Monkey]

In your picture the armor seems mythical, I can do a version like it.
But what historical period does this chariot belong to? And do you have any carvings, remains or other visual guidance for historical armor for the period?

Dating
How the Mahabharata and Ramayana are dated (9th - 5th c. BCE ?) would help determine the beginning point of the heavy ratha's use. Their usefulness in battle was critical to the Battle of Hydapses (4th BCE). References to rathas as part of the order of battle occur as late as the 7th c. CE. So quite a long period is covered, which of course affects what armor makes sense for a unit.

Armor Type
Except for the two small bas-relief below, the only images I could find are from much later eras. Combined with the descriptions from various sources we should be able to develop a fair idea of what armor a kshatrya in a ratha would wear. Make sure to click through the thumbnails to the larger images for more a lot more detail. If anyone is interested a list of the several texts used in researching this could be posted. I apologize for misspellings in the subtitles, didn’t catch them until the last minute.



Bas-Relief Descriptions
It’s barely visible, but my impression is that the Barhut Stupa (2nd c. BCE) rider is wearing a rectangular breastplate on top of something else. Another relief at Barhut (no image available) is described as wearing scale armor similar to a find in Khotan. The statue from Peshawar (2nd c. CE) shows some kind of scale or lamellar armor. A closer look at the details of the patterning indicates that the torso is probably a curaiss - separate from the rest of the armor. The various close-ups below the two bas-reliefs and the other images are all Indian examples from later eras.

Vedic Era Descriptions
“The breastplate, known in Sanskrit as urastrana, has been in use in India from prehistoric times, and consisted of a single large plate covering the body from the neck to the waist. It was secured by four straps, generally of leather, which were fastened at the back. The breast plate came in several designs. It could be round, square or shaped like an eight-petalled flower. There were breastplates with floral designs carved in high relief, and ones with a pronounced ridge in the centre so that any edged weapon that hit the plate would slide off owing to the contour of the ridge.” - E. Jaiwant Paul Arms And Armour: Traditional Weapons of India. Rather than a full curaiss I take this description to mean a single plate covering the front - like that worn by the Barhut rider.

Harappan era: “A kind of scale armour prepared from thin domed pieces of copper perforated with two minute holes was worn as for protection, ...” R. C. Majumdar The Vedic Age

According to the Atharva Veda (10th c. BCE) the king - who rode a chariot - would wear a breast plate. The Rig-Veda describes charioteers as wearing breastplates and armlets. In other verses the armor is described as a corselet of metal. Both the Vedas and the Epics describe arm and finger guards used by archers.

Mauryan Era Descriptions
Arrian’s description of Porus’ armor at the battle of Hydapses River (326 BCE): “It was shot proof and remarkable for its strength and the closeness with which it fitted his person, as could afterwards be observed by those who saw him. But he was wounded in the right shoulder where only he was unprotected by mail, that place alone was bare during action, for his coat of mail being excellent both for strength and workmanship as it afterwards appeared, easily secured the rest of his body”. It is also described as embellished with silver and gold. Despite the translation as mail it sounds more like a sort of char-aina but with lamellar rather than plate. That would match the description of strength and the bare shoulders - also the close fit and flexibility for things like drawing a bow or swordplay. The pictured example of lamellar could be described as silver & gold.

The Arthashastra (2nd c. BCE - 2nd c. CE)discusses iron armor, especially breastplates.

Mughal Era
Some details of the Mughal Era plate & mail coats may provide clues to the armor of earlier eras. The shape of the plates is suggestive of how an urastrana may have looked. The "belt" gathering at the waist of the Tibetan outfit may be useful when thinking about corselet-style armor.


For The Ratha Unit
Keep in mind that kshatrya in rathas were the elite of the elite at any era. So they would have the very best armor available. Based on this research. The unit should be designed to cover as broad a timeline as possible to meet the needs of different scenarios. Imho, the riders should wear something like an urastrana or char-aina with bare arms. Whether a full breastplate, a smaller plate with straps worn over cloth or leather, or a lamellar corselet is open to interpretation - meaning unit-maker's choice. No skirting of the armor or leggings either, I think. Complete the outfit with arm-guards and a helmet. Dhoti to cover the legs, of course, and barefoot or sandalled.

 

[7ronin]

I have not been able to find a picture of a ratha; depictions of ancient Indian armor are scarce. We do have lots of written descriptions of both from various sources and observers. From these it should be possible to design a ratha and units which are more than acceptable for game purposes. I will provide some information on these from time to time as I absorb the contents of a book I have just received on ancient Indian warfare.

 

[Takhisis]

I'll be gone from this forum for a while, but both of you have my e-mail address so you can ask for anything you need there.

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

char aina armour seems later, perhaps mughal??

 

[Blue Monkey]

char aina armour seems later, perhaps mughal??

Do you read whole posts or only captions under pictures?

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

neither one, i just read this recently in a osprey book...
i think though that a charioteer must have heavy armour like those of mycene. perhaps scales. or leather armour with iron decorations...
actually i read captions of you post...and quickly prompted that a later armour would be unfit for that era....i hope that you do not mind, and if you mind will do nothing bad, or when doing something bad not against me....best

 

[Blue Monkey]

1. Osprey books for some reason seem to have a lot of historical inaccuracies in the images of Indian armies.

2. Read whole posts rather than make redundant comments. Or non sequiturs.

3. Base posted opinions on research - preferably getting as close to primary sources as you can. Books by people like Chakravarti or Dikshitar are better resources than pretty pictures from R:TW mods, for example.

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

ok, so i figured out how to get your source of knowledge....thank you kind sir.

ps india is a far away country, in military terms, for me, but i still believe that char aina has something to do with the penetration force of lance and stirrup....

 

[7ronin]

Osprey Books are mostly written by hobbyists and amateurs. Only a few have been written by acknowledged experts (e.g. Turnbull and Zaloga) in a particular field. Because the majority of writers live in the U.S. and the U.K. and are only English speakers, they tend not to do well with topics which have few references in English. The best Osprey Books are those that deal with the Napoleonic Wars, the American Civil War, World War II, and contemporary topics. For the rest, you need to do some due diligence. Osprey pays the illustrators more than the writers. Osprey also relies on some "factory" writers. One writer has written in the vicinity of almost one hundred books in the series. Osprey provides no assistance to the writers. All Osprey does it edit them to fit the formula. Bottom line on Osprey - consider the previous and know what you are getting.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Exactly my point.

hopefully Shirou will let us know soon if he needs more info.

 

[Takhisis]

Early render preview.

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

ohhhhh, nice preview indeed, but the horses are to big, the person too small and - the chariot - oversized???

please mr. takhisis use the horses that imperator or sandris uses.......a big please i would like to have sets that work well together, another big PLEASE