Rating the Governments (Gathering Storm)

[Archon_Wing]

Just wondering how the governments stand since much has changed. Apparently you can't use stack the legacy cards with the current government anymore (RIP Oligarchy)

Anyhow, I'll rate them, but I won't explain them yet, so people can tell me how wrong I am

T1 Governments

Autocracy (10/10)
Oligarchy (7/10)
Classical Republic (1/10)

T2 Governments

Theocracy (8/10)
Merchant Republic (7/10)
Monarchy (3/10) (yes, it does have a use)

T3 Governments

Democracy (9/10)
Communism (9/10)
Fascism (7/10)

T4 Goverments.
Synthetic Technocracy (8/10)
Digital Democracy (6/10)
Corporate Libertarianism (0/10)

Ratings are not based on their absolute value (obviously), but rather by how likely I am to take them when they are available. Higher numberes are better.

 

[MooFreaky]

It almost entirely depends on how you are playing, I guess.
Autocracy is great for a warlike Civ, but if I am playing a more cultured game then I find myself going Classical Republic.

Generally, no matter what playstyle I switch into a Merchant Republic because gold is just amazing.

The T3 is almost purely dependant on the situation. If I have developed alliances then Democracy is great, but Communism is also brilliant and is less situation dependant.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Autocracy is great for a warlike Civ, but if I am playing a more cultured game then I find myself going Classical Republic.

I feel like Autocracy would be better for the cultured games because of the immediate yields and extra production towards wonder building. It's not big, but early on, it really helps.

If I have developed alliances then Democracy is great, but Communism is also brilliant and is less situation dependant.

Oh right, Democracy is kinda w/e without alliances, though New Deal (exclusive to Democracy is nice). Communism's +10% science.... yea I guess I don't think one is really better than the other I guess even if I feel Democracy has the edge.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

It looks fair when we only consider governments themselves. But if we considered the legacy cards, Classical Republic will be much valuable. Whether warmonger or peaceful, the more cities you have, the stronger it becomes.

 

[Archon_Wing]

It looks fair when we only consider governments themselves. But if we considered the legacy cards, Classical Republic will be much valuable. Whether warmonger or peaceful, the more cities you have, the stronger it becomes.

Well, that's fair enough. Maybe I should slip out of CR by building the plaza building and switching out, or switch into it before completing it.

 

[Vizurok]

I would be very interested in discussing the Autocracy / Classical Republic ratings. I am a peaceful player, so obviously I have a different viewpoint, but I feel like I am not getting something.

Classical Republic bonuses (amenity, housing, GPP) are not gamebreaking but quite useful, and the card mix is very convenient for peaceful players. It can be argued that you don't really need the green slot but it's still better than a red one (especially after GS as you can't abuse Agoge any more).

On the other hand, I find Autocracy quite useless. The wonder bonus can be easily replaced by a policy card, and as wonders are usually chopped, not built, it doesn't ever matter that much. The additional yields are nice, but I do not feel like having +2 culture and science matters that much at T50. (Or am I getting the math wrong?)

Obviously, this is the opinion of a peacemongering player, so consider my arguements accordingly.

 

[comatosedragon]

Wait a second -- are higher or lower numbers supposed to be 'better'? I'm confused .....

I would have assumed lower numbers were better : 1/10 being better than 3/10 for example; but I think I may be misunderstanding the ranking system .. sorry ...

 

[MarigoldRan]

Classical Republic is great with Canada and Greece.

Canada because you don't need military units and Greece has an extra wildcard slot.

 

[Weraptor]

You are heavily underrating Classical Republic - its policy slots, gpps for some civs and especially the legacy card are awesome

 

[Wingednosering]

Funny, I'm the opposite to this. I tend to be pretty peaceful, so I always go Classical Republic and rarely switch.

T2 I'm pretty lazy about. I usually go Merchant just because it's less of a pain to reach on the tech tree. I've actually gone straight from T1 to T3 many times because all of the Y2s are so inconvenient to get to.

T3 is almost always Democracy.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I would be very interested in discussing the Autocracy / Classical Republic ratings. I am a peaceful player, so obviously I have a different viewpoint, but I feel like I am not getting something.

Classical Republic bonuses (amenity, housing, GPP) are not gamebreaking but quite useful, and the card mix is very convenient for peaceful players. It can be argued that you don't really need the green slot but it's still better than a red one (especially after GS as you can't abuse Agoge any more).

On the other hand, I find Autocracy quite useless. The wonder bonus can be easily replaced by a policy card, and as wonders are usually chopped, not built, it doesn't ever matter that much. The additional yields are nice, but I do not feel like having +2 culture and science matters that much at T50. (Or am I getting the math wrong?)

Obviously, this is the opinion of a peacemongering player, so consider my arguements accordingly.

Well, I mean, I still never pick CR even when not warring.

When I enter Autocracy, I may have like, 10 culture/science, and sometimes less. +1 of these is already +10% which exceeds anything I could get from an amenity boost. The GPP I don't find useful because there aren't many districts built at this time and the AI automatically gets early great people anyways.

The other thing is that Classical Republic has a bad card spread. The Diplomacy card is worthless at this point (+2 envoy points is very little) and no military card. Even if not going to war, the card that reduces maintenance is useful, as well as the one that increases amenities.

Sure, you can take a wonder bonus with a policy card, but that greatly takes the air out of the other 2 governments because they use up a slot. And Autocracy can take a slot for +25% wonder production too. Building Colosseum a bit faster is always nice because it can go fast now, and is a large culture boost.

Marigoldran is probably right about Greece though.

I would have assumed lower numbers were better : 1/10 being better than 3/10 for example; but I think I may be misunderstanding the ranking system .. sorry ...

I've honestly never heard of a rating system where 1/10 is better than 10/10 before, but yea, higher numbers are better.

 

[DWilson]

Wait a second -- are higher or lower numbers supposed to be 'better'? I'm confused .....

I would have assumed lower numbers were better : 1/10 being better than 3/10 for example; but I think I may be misunderstanding the ranking system .. sorry ...

Why would lower be better? When something is scored, it's usually higher is better, with 10/10 being the best.

 

[riddleofsteel]

Well, I mean, I still never pick CR even when not warring.

When I enter Autocracy, I may have like, 10 culture/science, and sometimes less. +1 of these is already +10% which exceeds anything I could get from an amenity boost. The GPP I don't find useful because there aren't many districts built at this time and the AI automatically gets early great people anyways.

The other thing is that Classical Republic has a bad card spread. The Diplomacy card is worthless at this point (+2 envoy points is very little) and no military card. Even if not going to war, the card that reduces maintenance is useful, as well as the one that increases amenities.

Sure, you can take a wonder bonus with a policy card, but that greatly takes the air out of the other 2 governments because they use up a slot. And Autocracy can take a slot for +25% wonder production too. Building Colosseum a bit faster is always nice because it can go fast now, and is a large culture boost.

Marigoldran is probably right about Greece though.



I've honestly never heard of a rating system where 1/10 is better than 10/10 before, but yea, higher numbers are better.

I never understood that about Stratego, either!

 

[Vizurok]

Well, I mean, I still never pick CR even when not warring.

When I enter Autocracy, I may have like, 10 culture/science, and sometimes less. +1 of these is already +10% which exceeds anything I could get from an amenity boost. The GPP I don't find useful because there aren't many districts built at this time and the AI automatically gets early great people anyways.

The other thing is that Classical Republic has a bad card spread. The Diplomacy card is worthless at this point (+2 envoy points is very little) and no military card. Even if not going to war, the card that reduces maintenance is useful, as well as the one that increases amenities.

Sure, you can take a wonder bonus with a policy card, but that greatly takes the air out of the other 2 governments because they use up a slot. And Autocracy can take a slot for +25% wonder production too. Building Colosseum a bit faster is always nice because it can go fast now, and is a large culture boost.

Marigoldran is probably right about Greece though.

I've honestly never heard of a rating system where 1/10 is better than 10/10 before, but yea, higher numbers are better.

I understand your points but I really don't see the significant difference between the two governments that would explain your very different ratings. I mean, your reasoning is quite debatable and very much playstyle-dependent.

The culture / science output at Political Philosophy may vary in each playthrough, but after GS, Pignala provides a very stable culture / science boost that makes the Autocracy flat yield bonus quite redundant. It could be argued that governor titles are required for this approach, but people seem to agree that the Pignala opening might be the most consistent one. Also, it should be noted that it is ridiculously easy to get early great people with the Oracle + CR + Pignala lvl3 (+ Divine Spark) combo, and while you will probably miss some scientists, you are very likely to get almost all early Great Writers which means that you will get tons of culture from their writings.

I do agree that having a dedicated green card slot is not ideal, but I fail to see why having two mostly useless red cards is better than having one green. Currently, peaceful Deity play does not require you to have any army whatsoever, therefore even the best red cards have limited use. Honestly, I think that the green Diplomatic League card might be the best early non-brown card: free envoys are very powerful in the early game.

As for the wonder building, the Autocracy bonus will roughly translate into having to do one more chop for most Classical, early Medieval wonders - for me, that's not a high price, especially if i have Goddess of the Harvest.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I mean, your reasoning is quite debatable and very much playstyle-dependent.

I know, that's why I made this thread.

The culture / science output at Political Philosophy may vary in each playthrough, but after GS, Pignala provides a very stable culture / science boost that makes the Autocracy flat yield bonus quite redundant. It could be argued that governor titles are required for this approach, but people seem to agree that the Pignala opening might be the most consistent one.

Pingala's only going to give like 6-7 culture/science to that; it doesn't change what I said that drastically; it takes setup. Plus that's after 3 governor promotions, and you still need Magnus and Grants too.

Also, it should be noted that it is ridiculously easy to get early great people with the Oracle + CR + Pignala lvl3 (+ Divine Spark) combo, and while you will probably miss some scientists, you are very likely to get almost all early Great Writers which means that you will get tons of culture from their writings.

Yea but the point of that is the large flat GP yield of 2 from oracle which you can double to 4. Classical Republic only makes it like 1-2 turns faster.

 

[The googles do nothing]

I've never heard anyone chant "We're #10!"

Now that double Oligarchy is goneI think the tier governments are situational based on which VC your going for. Autocracy allows you too run Conscription, Agoge and a resource card - but then would you be building wonders at the same time?

The double Envoy card can be worth several envoys when played right.

 

[Kwami]

I've never heard anyone chant "We're #10!"

In a ranking, you want to be #1. In a rating, you want the highest number possible. In this case, 10.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please discuss the topic, not the rating system. OP explains clearly to me.

 

[Pietato]

You severely underestimate envoys.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I usually switch to a Classical Republic before I build the T1 govt. plaza building as the legacy card is the best in the game. With that being said, I don't think you should be able to do that and the program should give you the legacy card for the govt. type you spent the most number of turns in before construction of the T1 building or the founding of a T2 govt.

I also think you are underrating a Classical Republic in general. The amenity bonus for each city with a district will circumvent the conscription card (-1 maintenance cost per unit) and then some in many situations provided you have AI's to trade with and luxury resources to trade. You can get 5-10 GPT for a lux so the classical republic amenity bonus is like having a free military slot if you run conscription all the time with an Autocracy or Oligarchy. You will also have the gold to buy units and won't have to run Apogee either. This is my experience in more situations than not.