RBC9 - Hittite Charioteers
- Thread starter Charis
- Start date
Charis
Realms Beyond
Oops... glad the report whetted your appetite. I do however, like t see SG games not stall and press on a good rate, so thanks for reporting the computer problems.
Charis
Elvis <-- UP
Dwip <-- In the Hole
6thGenTexan
hotrod
Yom <-- On Deck thanks to the power of the laptop
Charis
Elvis <-- UP
Dwip <-- In the Hole
6thGenTexan
hotrod
Yom <-- On Deck thanks to the power of the laptop
hotrod0823
Deity
See just what I said Umma will fall then Ur, and the rest of Sumeria will fall like a deck of cards !!
Okay maybe I didn't say that. Maybe I said something more like how the heck can we push the 3-man any further....
Then along comes the mighty and wham!!! We are the proud owners of a few wonders.
I am very surprised that Mongols got Knights Templar. They were building in a small western town Choryb or some such name. How did they swap to Korakorum. This must be a new feature. IIRC in PTW if a wonder is being built in a city and it isn't the one that just completed it will continue to be built and not be swapped to the city that just missed a wonder. But they will swap to a wonder that they haven't started yet. Basically they will not shuffle the "Knights" City off of it even if they could now get that wonder in a different city now that SunZu can't be built any longer.
Not sure if I explained it correctly but anyway I was just surprised to see Mongols get it.
!!Okay maybe I didn't say that. Maybe I said something more like how the heck can we push the 3-man any further....
Then along comes the mighty
and wham!!! We are the proud owners of a few wonders. I am very surprised that Mongols got Knights Templar. They were building in a small western town Choryb or some such name. How did they swap to Korakorum. This must be a new feature. IIRC in PTW if a wonder is being built in a city and it isn't the one that just completed it will continue to be built and not be swapped to the city that just missed a wonder. But they will swap to a wonder that they haven't started yet. Basically they will not shuffle the "Knights" City off of it even if they could now get that wonder in a different city now that SunZu can't be built any longer.
Not sure if I explained it correctly but anyway I was just surprised to see Mongols get it.
Charis
Realms Beyond
Bloody Mongols! Bad timing INDEED! And Cavalry to boot?! I'm delighted you made it through all the Sumerian cities. I'm hoping (???) that the large flip chance will be reduced by being so
far from capital. Come on Joan, DO THE DEED and finish them!! If she does not, our flip worries are not over. Do not sign peace with Sumerians as France would surely do same (and it would hurt our rep)
Without looking at the save or situation, I would guess that buying in the whole world (or whoever we can) vs Mongols would help get the cav off our back (Well, don't sign French who can't reach them). Once we get MT and get the army filled and get a few turns to breath, we can apply the hammer to them, but we do need a breather of some sort. Are we even near MT? Can we buy into that and alliances? Gah, I can't take the suspense, and open the save...
Holy cow at mini-map -- that yellow civ has been growing like weed! Eep, we're 3 full techs from Cavalry? Ottomans have Education but not Chem, so is buying Chem a two-fer? No, our rep is trashed, so we're going to have a BEAR of a time catching up on tech, even to get those 3. Hmm, you could renegotiate peace with Arabs and probably buy Chem for order of 60gpt ?? (Then trade to Ottomans for Edu) Buy an embassy with Arabs, who look to be our best chance for a useful ally vs Mongols, before trying the deal, since we might either get a discount or a better chance to pull them into alliance at the peace table. That would get a key ally and distraction from Mongols, one tech on path to MT and one free off-track tech.
Brilliant timing on the part of the Mongols I must say. Look at the 'shape' of our empire. It's exceedingly poor for defending against cav, and not only that, they struck at and took our source of saltpeter - now we can't upgrade to muskets even if we wanted to. If they let us wipe out Sumeria, and get around to building defenses for city and gaining another few techs, and they would have been in big trouble.
The more I look the more worried I become though, warriors defending our cities against cavalry... shudder. If our rep weren't useless anyway I might hesitate to ally for desire to stop short on war, but that's not a big concern here. I'm really surprised in C3C just how quickly the AI can 'pull ahead' in tech, and have been seeing it now game after game.
Anyway, good luck Yom, you've got a tough turn ahead!
Charis
far from capital. Come on Joan, DO THE DEED and finish them!! If she does not, our flip worries are not over. Do not sign peace with Sumerians as France would surely do same (and it would hurt our rep)
Without looking at the save or situation, I would guess that buying in the whole world (or whoever we can) vs Mongols would help get the cav off our back (Well, don't sign French who can't reach them). Once we get MT and get the army filled and get a few turns to breath, we can apply the hammer to them, but we do need a breather of some sort. Are we even near MT? Can we buy into that and alliances? Gah, I can't take the suspense, and open the save...
Holy cow at mini-map -- that yellow civ has been growing like weed! Eep, we're 3 full techs from Cavalry? Ottomans have Education but not Chem, so is buying Chem a two-fer? No, our rep is trashed, so we're going to have a BEAR of a time catching up on tech, even to get those 3. Hmm, you could renegotiate peace with Arabs and probably buy Chem for order of 60gpt ?? (Then trade to Ottomans for Edu) Buy an embassy with Arabs, who look to be our best chance for a useful ally vs Mongols, before trying the deal, since we might either get a discount or a better chance to pull them into alliance at the peace table. That would get a key ally and distraction from Mongols, one tech on path to MT and one free off-track tech.
Brilliant timing on the part of the Mongols I must say. Look at the 'shape' of our empire. It's exceedingly poor for defending against cav, and not only that, they struck at and took our source of saltpeter - now we can't upgrade to muskets even if we wanted to. If they let us wipe out Sumeria, and get around to building defenses for city and gaining another few techs, and they would have been in big trouble.
The more I look the more worried I become though, warriors defending our cities against cavalry... shudder. If our rep weren't useless anyway I might hesitate to ally for desire to stop short on war, but that's not a big concern here. I'm really surprised in C3C just how quickly the AI can 'pull ahead' in tech, and have been seeing it now game after game.
Anyway, good luck Yom, you've got a tough turn ahead!
Charis
Charis
Realms Beyond
I'm glad the French are pursuing the end of Sumeria, that would indeed take a load off my mind 
When France meets the rest of the world, btw, they have potential to become a monster - they're large and hemmed in, and we're the hem.
We can't upgrade to muskets now, our salt was taken.
You were (imho) exactly right to finish off the Sumerian cities. The flip chances were brutal otherwise, and we have SunTzu and Pyramids thanks to that! Coming back 1-2 turns early may save one border town but won't stem the tide of the Mongol war.
Neither would spears have helped. A cav will run over a spear as trivially as it will run over a warrior, and we didn't have money to mass upgrade. Besides, with one defender, 1-2 cav will chew up the musket. By going warrior instead of shield the border towns had 10 shields to get out a worker, and improve that town and connect it to our core, far better than the spear vs warr difference.
We're caught well behind in the age of cav (for them) with an aggressive neighbor and a sprawling indefensible border. This war is going to set us back. We'll either ally and hope for a dogpile and suffer for 20 turns, or hope for a quick out in ~8 turns - probably having to pay a CITY in tribute (gosh it's been ages since I've had to do that), or ally and turn our back on the alliance in 8. Three awkward choices. Our age of 'expansion' ended exactly how we wanted it, with the 3MC's doing admirably well and expanding our territory nicely, but we needed (and still need) a consolidation and catch-up-in-tech phase to not lose some of our gains.
Good luck Yom - play well but don't kick yourself if we lose several cities in this battle. The Mongols will have a day of reckoning!
Charis
When France meets the rest of the world, btw, they have potential to become a monster - they're large and hemmed in, and we're the hem.We can't upgrade to muskets now, our salt was taken.
You were (imho) exactly right to finish off the Sumerian cities. The flip chances were brutal otherwise, and we have SunTzu and Pyramids thanks to that! Coming back 1-2 turns early may save one border town but won't stem the tide of the Mongol war.
Neither would spears have helped. A cav will run over a spear as trivially as it will run over a warrior, and we didn't have money to mass upgrade. Besides, with one defender, 1-2 cav will chew up the musket. By going warrior instead of shield the border towns had 10 shields to get out a worker, and improve that town and connect it to our core, far better than the spear vs warr difference.
We're caught well behind in the age of cav (for them) with an aggressive neighbor and a sprawling indefensible border. This war is going to set us back. We'll either ally and hope for a dogpile and suffer for 20 turns, or hope for a quick out in ~8 turns - probably having to pay a CITY in tribute (gosh it's been ages since I've had to do that), or ally and turn our back on the alliance in 8. Three awkward choices. Our age of 'expansion' ended exactly how we wanted it, with the 3MC's doing admirably well and expanding our territory nicely, but we needed (and still need) a consolidation and catch-up-in-tech phase to not lose some of our gains.
Good luck Yom - play well but don't kick yourself if we lose several cities in this battle. The Mongols will have a day of reckoning!
Charis
Turn 0 - The situation doesn't look good... Ankuwa is going to fall to a cav in the interturn and our western cities are indefensible.
I up luxuries to 10% and fire a couple entertainers (Hatussas was about to riot).
Buy Chemistry from the Arabs for 297 Gold and 55 gpt, sell it to the ottomans for education and 3 gold. Considered an alliance, but they would be useless and probably die.
Bah...I just realized I should have gotten an embassy and bought the alliance with Chemistry, as Arabs don't accept our gpt except in peace treaties.
Build embassy w/ Aztecs, Sistine's in 73. Actually, we can't afford to have Hattusas on Sistine's for 28 turns, so it's changed to a knight.
Sell off All barracks and Granary's for a net of 145 Gold. Former Sumerian cities put on Taxman starvation diet so that we can avoid paying straight gold for alliance w/ aztecs.
Ally w/ Aztecs (our gpt isn't worthless for them) against mongols for 41 gpt. also throw in an ROP to discount price).
I notice that the Sumerians have Metallurgy and are willing to part with it for peace. I will wait for the 3 turns left on our alliance to expire before declaring peace (der has to withstand 2 archers on the last turn of the alliance).
Sell Theology to the Koreans @ last for 14 gpt as we are down to 8.
Move one more 3man to the Front and hit enter...
IBT - F*CK!
Mongol cavalry take Ankuwa as expected, Hovd loses its spearman and is now only defended by a warrior. Then, cavalry come out of Adana using a neutral road to attack and capture Tyrana! We are in deep sh*t, I wish I had purchased that Arabian alliance.
Koreans demand horses. I really can't afford them allying w/ France against us so I give it to them.
Turn 1 - With the capture of Tyrana and ankuwa, many of our main producers are now at risk of attack in one turn by mongol cavalry.
The Army is now in enemy territory, so I move it out and load 1 3man so it can move from danger and be loaded with 2 knights.
But all is not lost...we still have a knight army (which will be fully healed next turn) and a 2 knight 1 3man army that will soon be healed as well. I also note that Mongolian mansura is near our troops, contains saltpeter, and doesn't seem to be highly defended as no attacks from it have come.
Our 2nd source of horses (the ones WE are using, after the korean threat) can be pillaged next turn, so I prepare to hook up another source
I create a sacrificial wall of 2 workers (couldn't be saved) and 2 warriors, to prevent our 3 man stack from being attacked and our horses from being pillaged this turn.
IBT - Hovd lost as expected, both sacrificial warriors killed (one kills a cav though) and 1 worker captured.
Turn 2 - Der is SURE to fall in 2 turns, as France has a stack of MDI and archers 1 turn away from attacking it. It will be attacked next turn by 1 vet and 1 reg. archer. Hopefully it will withstand that attack so that we can get metallurgy and trade for astronomy.
I send a 3man as a scout against mansura, but unfortunately it is defended by a musketman, can pillage the salt this turn though.
Knight army takes care of 2 cavs, - 3 hp (right out side tyrana, which will hopefully be retaken by 2 armies next turn). 2 mongol musketmen can reach tyrana this turn using the neutral road so I attack with 8/12 knight/3man army now. Army defeats 2 cavs and upgrades. Tyrana is ours!
Lose one 3man taking out a cav (didn't want to risk the injured army vs. the awesome attack of cavs).
Ankuwa could be retaken next turn if i find it only defended by cavs. Otherwise, armies will rest up and attack 2 turns from now.
Astronomy, Music Theory, and Metallurgy are now universally known in the West (except for ottomans) We can get either Astronomy or metallurgy from the sumerians for peace, or both for peace and all our gpt. Don't want to ruin our rep with the french, as I think Der can withstand 2 archers. If not, my bad.
Hit enter and Der...
IBT - HOLDS! With just 1 hp left on its only 2 Enkidu's! We lose one 3man that took out a cav the turn before and 2 cavs show up on the mountain outside of Ankuwa.
Turn 3 - Cancel Alliance with French. Declare peace with Sumerians, getting Astronomy and Metallurgy for an inflated 45 gpt (Der will fall next turn without a doubt). Fire all taxmen (including those in former sumerian cities) and we are now at -40 gpt and 214 gold.
Knight Army takes out 2 longbowmen (-1 hp) and goes back to Tyrana, which is defended by 2 armies and multiple 3men (upgrade is waaay too expensive), but will be attacked by 2 cavs. So far, the Mongols have avoided Hattusas, even though it can be attacked in one turn from Ankuwa.
Despite recent advances in the East, The west is still in trouble.
We can now research military tradition, but won't as our economy can't handle more than 50 turn research without going in the red (after sumerian deal expires).
Oops...just realized I shouldn't have moved those warriors as this is MOW. They didn't change the events of the turn much at all, but i will refrain from doing so anymore.
IBT - The rampaging French forces have destroyed the Sumerians
.
Just as things are beginning to look up, they take a turn for the worse. A pikeman I sent out to defend our horses (before I remembered the rules) is killed after defeating a cav. and Hatusha is in serious trouble. Luckily, our armies can reach them this turn.
Turn 4 - Knight moves to take out longbow and notices ankuwa is only defended by a reg spearman. It redlines it, then loses 4 straight! Spearman was promoted.
Vet 3man vs. longbow wins, -1hp
Elite 3man vs. 2hp spear, retreats, -4 hp
Elite* 3man vs. 2hp spear wins and Ankuwa is ours again!
13 hp knight/3man army vs. vet cav on hill wins, -3hp
10 hp knight/3man army vs. reg. spearman on hill wins, -3hp
Vet 3man vs. cav in forest wins, -2hp
Agade or ugarit can be attacked next turn by a vet cav. West is now defended better, but at the expense of the midwest and east. Tyrana is defended by 1 knight and could be attacked from the fog next turn. Ankuwa is defended w/ 9hp knight army and 3hp 3man.
IBT - lose 2 exposed 3mans and one 3man @ hubishna. Lose a pikeman at agade, but the city holds, and the cav runs towards mongolia.
Hattusas riots (I pulled out its 2nd mp (a knight) to attack) the turn a knight was due to be completed
sorry, my fault.
Aztec Istanbul completes JS Bach's Cathedral.
Turn 5 - Mongols will talk and will accept peace upfront. I will pause here, as we can push the war farther successfully, but without saltpeter, peace will be useless.
Edit: oops, accidentally posted same image twice.
I up luxuries to 10% and fire a couple entertainers (Hatussas was about to riot).
Buy Chemistry from the Arabs for 297 Gold and 55 gpt, sell it to the ottomans for education and 3 gold. Considered an alliance, but they would be useless and probably die.
Bah...I just realized I should have gotten an embassy and bought the alliance with Chemistry, as Arabs don't accept our gpt except in peace treaties.
Build embassy w/ Aztecs, Sistine's in 73. Actually, we can't afford to have Hattusas on Sistine's for 28 turns, so it's changed to a knight.
Sell off All barracks and Granary's for a net of 145 Gold. Former Sumerian cities put on Taxman starvation diet so that we can avoid paying straight gold for alliance w/ aztecs.
Ally w/ Aztecs (our gpt isn't worthless for them) against mongols for 41 gpt. also throw in an ROP to discount price).
I notice that the Sumerians have Metallurgy and are willing to part with it for peace. I will wait for the 3 turns left on our alliance to expire before declaring peace (der has to withstand 2 archers on the last turn of the alliance).
Sell Theology to the Koreans @ last for 14 gpt as we are down to 8.
Move one more 3man to the Front and hit enter...
IBT - F*CK!
Mongol cavalry take Ankuwa as expected, Hovd loses its spearman and is now only defended by a warrior. Then, cavalry come out of Adana using a neutral road to attack and capture Tyrana! We are in deep sh*t, I wish I had purchased that Arabian alliance.
Koreans demand horses. I really can't afford them allying w/ France against us so I give it to them.
Turn 1 - With the capture of Tyrana and ankuwa, many of our main producers are now at risk of attack in one turn by mongol cavalry.
The Army is now in enemy territory, so I move it out and load 1 3man so it can move from danger and be loaded with 2 knights.
But all is not lost...we still have a knight army (which will be fully healed next turn) and a 2 knight 1 3man army that will soon be healed as well. I also note that Mongolian mansura is near our troops, contains saltpeter, and doesn't seem to be highly defended as no attacks from it have come.
Our 2nd source of horses (the ones WE are using, after the korean threat) can be pillaged next turn, so I prepare to hook up another source
I create a sacrificial wall of 2 workers (couldn't be saved) and 2 warriors, to prevent our 3 man stack from being attacked and our horses from being pillaged this turn.
IBT - Hovd lost as expected, both sacrificial warriors killed (one kills a cav though) and 1 worker captured.
Turn 2 - Der is SURE to fall in 2 turns, as France has a stack of MDI and archers 1 turn away from attacking it. It will be attacked next turn by 1 vet and 1 reg. archer. Hopefully it will withstand that attack so that we can get metallurgy and trade for astronomy.
I send a 3man as a scout against mansura, but unfortunately it is defended by a musketman, can pillage the salt this turn though.
Knight army takes care of 2 cavs, - 3 hp (right out side tyrana, which will hopefully be retaken by 2 armies next turn). 2 mongol musketmen can reach tyrana this turn using the neutral road so I attack with 8/12 knight/3man army now. Army defeats 2 cavs and upgrades. Tyrana is ours!
Lose one 3man taking out a cav (didn't want to risk the injured army vs. the awesome attack of cavs).
Ankuwa could be retaken next turn if i find it only defended by cavs. Otherwise, armies will rest up and attack 2 turns from now.
Astronomy, Music Theory, and Metallurgy are now universally known in the West (except for ottomans) We can get either Astronomy or metallurgy from the sumerians for peace, or both for peace and all our gpt. Don't want to ruin our rep with the french, as I think Der can withstand 2 archers. If not, my bad.
Hit enter and Der...
IBT - HOLDS! With just 1 hp left on its only 2 Enkidu's! We lose one 3man that took out a cav the turn before and 2 cavs show up on the mountain outside of Ankuwa.
Turn 3 - Cancel Alliance with French. Declare peace with Sumerians, getting Astronomy and Metallurgy for an inflated 45 gpt (Der will fall next turn without a doubt). Fire all taxmen (including those in former sumerian cities) and we are now at -40 gpt and 214 gold.
Knight Army takes out 2 longbowmen (-1 hp) and goes back to Tyrana, which is defended by 2 armies and multiple 3men (upgrade is waaay too expensive), but will be attacked by 2 cavs. So far, the Mongols have avoided Hattusas, even though it can be attacked in one turn from Ankuwa.
Despite recent advances in the East, The west is still in trouble.
We can now research military tradition, but won't as our economy can't handle more than 50 turn research without going in the red (after sumerian deal expires).
Oops...just realized I shouldn't have moved those warriors as this is MOW. They didn't change the events of the turn much at all, but i will refrain from doing so anymore.
IBT - The rampaging French forces have destroyed the Sumerians
.Just as things are beginning to look up, they take a turn for the worse. A pikeman I sent out to defend our horses (before I remembered the rules) is killed after defeating a cav. and Hatusha is in serious trouble. Luckily, our armies can reach them this turn.
Turn 4 - Knight moves to take out longbow and notices ankuwa is only defended by a reg spearman. It redlines it, then loses 4 straight! Spearman was promoted.
Vet 3man vs. longbow wins, -1hp
Elite 3man vs. 2hp spear, retreats, -4 hp
Elite* 3man vs. 2hp spear wins and Ankuwa is ours again!
13 hp knight/3man army vs. vet cav on hill wins, -3hp
10 hp knight/3man army vs. reg. spearman on hill wins, -3hp
Vet 3man vs. cav in forest wins, -2hp
Agade or ugarit can be attacked next turn by a vet cav. West is now defended better, but at the expense of the midwest and east. Tyrana is defended by 1 knight and could be attacked from the fog next turn. Ankuwa is defended w/ 9hp knight army and 3hp 3man.
IBT - lose 2 exposed 3mans and one 3man @ hubishna. Lose a pikeman at agade, but the city holds, and the cav runs towards mongolia.
Hattusas riots (I pulled out its 2nd mp (a knight) to attack) the turn a knight was due to be completed
sorry, my fault.Aztec Istanbul completes JS Bach's Cathedral.
Turn 5 - Mongols will talk and will accept peace upfront. I will pause here, as we can push the war farther successfully, but without saltpeter, peace will be useless.
Edit: oops, accidentally posted same image twice.
Charis
Realms Beyond
A *harrowing* set of turns! You've done well to stop the hemorrhaging, and it remains to be seen if we're still bleeding or if the attacker becomes the attackee.
> Buy Chemistry from the Arabs for 297 Gold and 55 gpt, sell it to
> the ottomans for education and 3 gold. Considered an alliance,
> but they would be useless and probably die.
> Bah...I just realized I should have gotten an embassy and
> bought the alliance with Chemistry, as Arabs don't accept our
> gpt except in peace treaties.
Darn, my post suggesting this wasn't quite in time!
> Sell off All barracks and Granary's for a net of 145 Gold.
I'm hoping "all" meant something like 'all cities at risk of falling in enemy hands anyway'. Our problems stem from our growth curve being so far behind, so I'm hoping we're not further behind in our core cities. If that was non-core cities and the extra gold saved our tails though, brilliant
> I notice that the Sumerians have Metallurgy and are willing to
> part with it for peace. I will wait for the 3 turns left on our
> alliance to expire before declaring peace
I like it -- it's a no-win situation for our rep. If we took peace now we would break our deal with France and be more tarnished. If we waiting til end of alliance then took tech for peace (with cash) then when *France* eliminates them we get busted rep as a 'deal-breaker'. Your call was the 'honorable' thing to do despite the games rule on dying-civs. (And some have reported no rep hit in such dying civ situtations, I'm not sure how it's currently handled) There was still a chance, btw that with our alliance gone and with their losses fighting Sumerians and with the latter now getting gpt they could use to buy peace, that they could have bought their way to peace with France with our gpt.
> The Army is now in enemy territory, so I move it out and load 1
> 3man so it can move from danger and be loaded with 2 knights.
Excellent move dictated by necessity
Ankuwa, Hovd, and Tyrana's losses weren't unexpected,
great job on the recapture of Ankuwa and Tyrana and not losing an army in the process.
> I also note that Mongolian mansura is near our troops, contains
> saltpeter, and doesn't seem to be highly defended as no
> attacks from it have come.
They 'stole' this city from the Arabs.
Ankuwa could be retaken next turn if i find it only defended by cavs. Otherwise, armies will rest up and attack 2 turns from now.
> Oops...just realized I shouldn't have moved those warriors as
> this is MOW. They didn't change the events of the turn much at
> all, but i will refrain from doing so anymore. ...
> A pikeman I sent out to defend our horses (before I
> remembered the rules) is killed after defeating a cav
It's oddly fitting the spirit however, that the MOW fast unit "Leaders" of the nation ordered the slow units and workers to be hurled outside the city gates, in recognition of their utter uselessness in holding off fast units. And the dog of a pike who thought he could show his face in public by his own choice was cut down for his insolence!
> Turn 5 - Mongols will talk and will accept peace upfront. I will
> pause here, as we can push the war farther successfully, but
> without saltpeter, peace will be useless.
Wow, it's at a rather interesting point! If we care about honor and have the choice to do so, taking peace in next 15ish turns breaks our deal with the Aztecs. (If that's needed to save our capital that's one thing, but if for expedience, kinda dastardly)
As you note, life without saltpeter is unacceptable, with no desperately needed muskets and no cav when we get MT. Consider it crucial, btw, to not let France get upset with us or be brought into war against us (Mongols would be *brilliant* to do this except... I don't think they've met the French!
)
I've truly had enough of Korean insolence this game. Last I saw they were at war with France, no? I probably would have denied the horse tribute and if they declared, signed up with France to exterminate them - which had the plus side of keeping France on our good side.
We have the key advantage of army and strategy on our side, but they have... well... cavalry and tremendously more offense and defense. Yet if after taking our three cities they'll take peace for free, they don't think much of their own chances! If we can keep up a strong kill ratio, use a roaming army for defense and one to take a saltpeter city and/or one or two more, we can likely keep up the pressure for a while and end up with MilTradition for peace. Of course, that could be wildly optimistic and the next turn could see 9 cav show up next to a core city defended by one spear.
Keep up the good work, you're doing quite well under the pressure! (Dwip I hope you're following closely and ready to use your noodle... you're up next in about 5 turns)
Charis
> Buy Chemistry from the Arabs for 297 Gold and 55 gpt, sell it to
> the ottomans for education and 3 gold. Considered an alliance,
> but they would be useless and probably die.
> Bah...I just realized I should have gotten an embassy and
> bought the alliance with Chemistry, as Arabs don't accept our
> gpt except in peace treaties.
Darn, my post suggesting this wasn't quite in time!
> Sell off All barracks and Granary's for a net of 145 Gold.
I'm hoping "all" meant something like 'all cities at risk of falling in enemy hands anyway'. Our problems stem from our growth curve being so far behind, so I'm hoping we're not further behind in our core cities. If that was non-core cities and the extra gold saved our tails though, brilliant > I notice that the Sumerians have Metallurgy and are willing to
> part with it for peace. I will wait for the 3 turns left on our
> alliance to expire before declaring peace
I like it -- it's a no-win situation for our rep. If we took peace now we would break our deal with France and be more tarnished. If we waiting til end of alliance then took tech for peace (with cash) then when *France* eliminates them we get busted rep as a 'deal-breaker'. Your call was the 'honorable' thing to do despite the games rule on dying-civs. (And some have reported no rep hit in such dying civ situtations, I'm not sure how it's currently handled) There was still a chance, btw that with our alliance gone and with their losses fighting Sumerians and with the latter now getting gpt they could use to buy peace, that they could have bought their way to peace with France with our gpt.
> The Army is now in enemy territory, so I move it out and load 1
> 3man so it can move from danger and be loaded with 2 knights.
Excellent move dictated by necessity
Ankuwa, Hovd, and Tyrana's losses weren't unexpected,
great job on the recapture of Ankuwa and Tyrana and not losing an army in the process.
> I also note that Mongolian mansura is near our troops, contains
> saltpeter, and doesn't seem to be highly defended as no
> attacks from it have come.
They 'stole' this city from the Arabs.
Ankuwa could be retaken next turn if i find it only defended by cavs. Otherwise, armies will rest up and attack 2 turns from now.
> Oops...just realized I shouldn't have moved those warriors as
> this is MOW. They didn't change the events of the turn much at
> all, but i will refrain from doing so anymore. ...
> A pikeman I sent out to defend our horses (before I
> remembered the rules) is killed after defeating a cav
It's oddly fitting the spirit however, that the MOW fast unit "Leaders" of the nation ordered the slow units and workers to be hurled outside the city gates, in recognition of their utter uselessness in holding off fast units. And the dog of a pike who thought he could show his face in public by his own choice was cut down for his insolence!
> Turn 5 - Mongols will talk and will accept peace upfront. I will
> pause here, as we can push the war farther successfully, but
> without saltpeter, peace will be useless.
Wow, it's at a rather interesting point! If we care about honor and have the choice to do so, taking peace in next 15ish turns breaks our deal with the Aztecs. (If that's needed to save our capital that's one thing, but if for expedience, kinda dastardly)
As you note, life without saltpeter is unacceptable, with no desperately needed muskets and no cav when we get MT. Consider it crucial, btw, to not let France get upset with us or be brought into war against us (Mongols would be *brilliant* to do this except... I don't think they've met the French!
)I've truly had enough of Korean insolence this game. Last I saw they were at war with France, no? I probably would have denied the horse tribute and if they declared, signed up with France to exterminate them - which had the plus side of keeping France on our good side.
We have the key advantage of army and strategy on our side, but they have... well... cavalry and tremendously more offense and defense. Yet if after taking our three cities they'll take peace for free, they don't think much of their own chances! If we can keep up a strong kill ratio, use a roaming army for defense and one to take a saltpeter city and/or one or two more, we can likely keep up the pressure for a while and end up with MilTradition for peace. Of course, that could be wildly optimistic and the next turn could see 9 cav show up next to a core city defended by one spear.
Keep up the good work, you're doing quite well under the pressure! (Dwip I hope you're following closely and ready to use your noodle... you're up next in about 5 turns)
Charis
hotrod0823
Deity
Keep up the fight!
Charis: I think the granaries and barracks were sold because we are the proud owners of pyramids and SunZu.
Charis: I think the granaries and barracks were sold because we are the proud owners of pyramids and SunZu.
Charis
Realms Beyond
Of course... While the Sumerians were yet alive I did not allow myself the luxury of thinking they would STAY ours! That's still an assumption, but a very good one.Glad Yom was more awake on that one than I was
Charis
The results are in and it seems an overwhelming majority say 'Death to the Mongols!' I'll play and post later this evening or tonight.
I'm going to try and take Adana, Mansura, Hovd, and Kadesh (the mongols haven't come with more than 2-3 cavalry per turn so far.) and hold the west. The absolute worst thing that could happen at this point is war with France, so if that happens, you can expect immediate peace with the Mongols. Otherwise...
The Mongols shall rue the day they messed with Yom the Mursilis!
Yom
Edit: @Charis: Are you sure Sumeria's death would have tarnished our rep? I think it didn't in this case because it wasn't really a deal. Civ handled it more like a the end of a peace treaty because a civ died, which shouldn't and doesn't ruin reputation.
I'm going to try and take Adana, Mansura, Hovd, and Kadesh (the mongols haven't come with more than 2-3 cavalry per turn so far.) and hold the west. The absolute worst thing that could happen at this point is war with France, so if that happens, you can expect immediate peace with the Mongols. Otherwise...
The Mongols shall rue the day they messed with Yom the Mursilis!
Yom
Edit: @Charis: Are you sure Sumeria's death would have tarnished our rep? I think it didn't in this case because it wasn't really a deal. Civ handled it more like a the end of a peace treaty because a civ died, which shouldn't and doesn't ruin reputation.
I knew my goals were unreasonably optomistic, but we're actually in trouble now. It may be within our bests interests to get peace with the Mongols now.
Turn 5 - Contd.
Vet knight vs. elite cav. loses, cav -3 hp
Vet 3man vs. 2/5 cav. wins -1 hp
Vet 3man vs. vet cav. in forest, loses and promotes
7/13 mixed army vs. 4/5 cav. wins -3 hp.
9/13 army vs. vet cav. wins flawlessly
9/13 army vs. vet cav. wins, -2 hp
7/13 army vs. vet cav wins, but loses 5 hp and is exposed! it could be lost next turn.
Rather than let the army be lost, i cover it with an 3/5 3man and 1/5 3man, leaving ankuwa to be captured by a cavalry.
Up luxury tax for 1 turn
IBT - Ankuwa lost
4/4 3man defeats 3/5 cav.
3/4 3man defeats 4/4 cav. and promotes
Choybalsan completes Leos
Turn 6 - Ankuwa defended by 2 cav. and some MDI and musketmen showed up. Clearly the Mongols are far from gassed. I'll have to consolidate our forces and then slowly push forward. 2 knights completed and 1 musketmen, all set to knights.
vet knight vs. Cav. loses, cav -3 hp.
vet knight vs. cav. loses, cav -1 hp.
Have to call off attack on ankuwa and evacuate army.
Unfortunately Ankuwa will be defended by a musketman, crusader, and MDI as well next turn.
Things are looking bleak again, the war's going as downhill now as it went uphill before.
IBT-
3/5 3man only takes 1 hp off an offending cav. but does its job and keeps the knight army alive (another cav. was 1 move from killing it).
Tyrana: Pikeman-> knight
Tenochtilan completes cop's
Turn 7 - Knight army now down to 1 hp thanks to cav ZoC.
Musketman is going to disconnect an iron next turn. But, our mixed army is back to full health! (don't you just love Conquests?)
13/13 army barely doesn't have enough move to retake ankuwa, but kills 3/4 cav., -2hp
vet knight kills cav, but is redlined.
IBT - Crap! We may really have to sign peace with the mongols now. They show up with more musketmen, a cavalry or two and some longbowmen. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but most their attackers are defended by musketmen.
Turn 8 -
11/13 Army vs. reg musketman wins -1 hp
10/13 Army vs. 3/4 Cav. wins, -3 hp
7/13 Army vs. 3/4 cav. wins, -2 hp, but a longbow remains that i can only attack with a 1 hp 3man or our 1 hp knight army.
I don't want to keep holding up the game, but I really feel that we're in trouble here.
What you see is basically our army (except for 2 3mans in Hattusha).
The apparent stack at Tyrana is actually a 1/5 3man and a 1/13 Knight Army. The stack outside of ankuwa, too is comprised of just 1 army. The Save
Turn 5 - Contd.
Vet knight vs. elite cav. loses, cav -3 hp
Vet 3man vs. 2/5 cav. wins -1 hp
Vet 3man vs. vet cav. in forest, loses and promotes
7/13 mixed army vs. 4/5 cav. wins -3 hp.
9/13 army vs. vet cav. wins flawlessly
9/13 army vs. vet cav. wins, -2 hp
7/13 army vs. vet cav wins, but loses 5 hp and is exposed! it could be lost next turn.
Rather than let the army be lost, i cover it with an 3/5 3man and 1/5 3man, leaving ankuwa to be captured by a cavalry.
Up luxury tax for 1 turn
IBT - Ankuwa lost
4/4 3man defeats 3/5 cav.
3/4 3man defeats 4/4 cav. and promotes
Choybalsan completes Leos
Turn 6 - Ankuwa defended by 2 cav. and some MDI and musketmen showed up. Clearly the Mongols are far from gassed. I'll have to consolidate our forces and then slowly push forward. 2 knights completed and 1 musketmen, all set to knights.
vet knight vs. Cav. loses, cav -3 hp.
vet knight vs. cav. loses, cav -1 hp.
Have to call off attack on ankuwa and evacuate army.
Unfortunately Ankuwa will be defended by a musketman, crusader, and MDI as well next turn.
Things are looking bleak again, the war's going as downhill now as it went uphill before.
IBT-
3/5 3man only takes 1 hp off an offending cav. but does its job and keeps the knight army alive (another cav. was 1 move from killing it).
Tyrana: Pikeman-> knight
Tenochtilan completes cop's
Turn 7 - Knight army now down to 1 hp thanks to cav ZoC.
Musketman is going to disconnect an iron next turn. But, our mixed army is back to full health! (don't you just love Conquests?)
13/13 army barely doesn't have enough move to retake ankuwa, but kills 3/4 cav., -2hp
vet knight kills cav, but is redlined.
IBT - Crap! We may really have to sign peace with the mongols now. They show up with more musketmen, a cavalry or two and some longbowmen. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, but most their attackers are defended by musketmen.
Turn 8 -
11/13 Army vs. reg musketman wins -1 hp
10/13 Army vs. 3/4 Cav. wins, -3 hp
7/13 Army vs. 3/4 cav. wins, -2 hp, but a longbow remains that i can only attack with a 1 hp 3man or our 1 hp knight army.
I don't want to keep holding up the game, but I really feel that we're in trouble here.
What you see is basically our army (except for 2 3mans in Hattusha).
The apparent stack at Tyrana is actually a 1/5 3man and a 1/13 Knight Army. The stack outside of ankuwa, too is comprised of just 1 army. The Save
I started to play the last turns and we are in big trouble. The Mongols are far from gassed. In the IT, they showed up with an SOD of MDIs and longbowmen, and I just realized that they cut off our only source of Iron (I thought we had another with all those hills). I'm going to use our armies to retake Ankuwa and immediately sign peace if everyone agrees. I may be able to take Kadesh the next turn as well before signing peace with some help from the PRNG.
Charis
Realms Beyond
Despite our discussions and comments between turns, we do try to let each player have their autonomy and call the shots during his turn, so Yom, play it out and do what you think is best. It's close, really close, and a 'right call' in theory might go down in flames to bad luck, or vice versa. If we can regain a city or hurt them a little more first then peace is probably our best call if it looks like losing a city is as likely as taking one
You da man now... good luck!
Charis
You da man now... good luck!
Charis
Peace it is, then.
Agade can be attacked by 2 cav next turn, so I empty Agade of its two 3man defenders and move them to defend Ugarit, Ugarit is sure to survive, but Agade might be taken if they have cavs at Mansura.
13/13 Knight Army vs. Vet Musketman wins flawlessly.
13/13 Knight Army vs. 4/4 Crusader wins -5 hp.
5/13 Knight/3man Army vs. Elite MDI wins flawlessly and Ankuwa is once again ours.
We'll see if this is or not, but I'm going to stay at war for one more turn as Kadesh could be ours (We really need the lux for one, plus it's a 2nd ring city).
Peace with Mongols is acceptable, but won't part with any city and won't give much in tech discounts (an inflated 53 GPT and 200 gold is still doubtful for Banking, the cheapest Tech).
Hit enter and pray Agade doesn't fall...
IBT - 3man dies to cavalry, promoting but taking 1 hp.
Sh*t! A cav comes out of the fog and kills the 1 hp Knight defending Tyrana. Tyrana is now Mongolian again.
Pikeman defends against a cav. with the help of a trebuchet.
Er...apparently I forgot to reset the city settings (they were all on taxmen from checking tech. prices) so I replay the turn and the same things happen.
Hattusas: Knight > Marketplace (we have no iron).
Alalah: Temple > Marketplace (vetoable)
Turn 10 - 5/13 Mixed Army vs. 4/5 Cav. defending Tyrana wins, -1hp Tyrana is ours once again, but at size 2.
Kadesh is defended by a musketman, but it is regular.
7/13 Knight Army (-1hp from cav ZoC) vs. reg musketman. wins (-5 hp) and reveals another reg musketman. We can't risk our knight army against such odds, so I sue for peace.
Gah...peace is now 'doubtful.' We pay 160 of our 223 gold for peace (should've signed peace last turn.)
We betrayed the Aztecs, gaining back 41 gpt.
We are not in good shape. Our Iron is disconnected, our economy in shambles, and our cities small. The next few set of turns will likely be builders turns, as we are in no position to go to war again until we get cavs and our cities more productive.
The next player should sell the french education or gunpowder for their 93 gpt and 8 gold. The question is which should be sold. If we sell them Gunpowder, they'll have muskets (there's salt outside Paris) which will make them more likely to attack us, but they might have a second source to sell us (doubtful, as we know most of their territory and I saw none).
There is a group of workers outside of Hattusha that can road the iron and connect our spices to the rest of our empire next turn, if the Mongols move off of it. Lagash and Sumer are the only former Sumerian cities worth developing and I would recommend a courthouse immediately after their current builds finish (especially since they've become more effective in 1.15) Lagash is 66% corrupt and makes 15 spt before corruption and could make 23 before corruption at size 12.
The Save
Edit: Also, I forgot to MM Lagash, as it will riot next turn.
Agade can be attacked by 2 cav next turn, so I empty Agade of its two 3man defenders and move them to defend Ugarit, Ugarit is sure to survive, but Agade might be taken if they have cavs at Mansura.
13/13 Knight Army vs. Vet Musketman wins flawlessly.
13/13 Knight Army vs. 4/4 Crusader wins -5 hp.
5/13 Knight/3man Army vs. Elite MDI wins flawlessly and Ankuwa is once again ours.
We'll see if this is
or not, but I'm going to stay at war for one more turn as Kadesh could be ours (We really need the lux for one, plus it's a 2nd ring city).Peace with Mongols is acceptable, but won't part with any city and won't give much in tech discounts (an inflated 53 GPT and 200 gold is still doubtful for Banking, the cheapest Tech).
Hit enter and pray Agade doesn't fall...
IBT - 3man dies to cavalry, promoting but taking 1 hp.
Sh*t! A cav comes out of the fog and kills the 1 hp Knight defending Tyrana. Tyrana is now Mongolian again.
Pikeman defends against a cav. with the help of a trebuchet.
Er...apparently I forgot to reset the city settings (they were all on taxmen from checking tech. prices) so I replay the turn and the same things happen.
Hattusas: Knight > Marketplace (we have no iron).
Alalah: Temple > Marketplace (vetoable)
Turn 10 - 5/13 Mixed Army vs. 4/5 Cav. defending Tyrana wins, -1hp Tyrana is ours once again, but at size 2.
Kadesh is defended by a musketman, but it is regular.
7/13 Knight Army (-1hp from cav ZoC) vs. reg musketman. wins (-5 hp) and reveals another reg musketman. We can't risk our knight army against such odds, so I sue for peace.
Gah...peace is now 'doubtful.' We pay 160 of our 223 gold for peace (should've signed peace last turn.)
We betrayed the Aztecs, gaining back 41 gpt.
We are not in good shape. Our Iron is disconnected, our economy in shambles, and our cities small. The next few set of turns will likely be builders turns, as we are in no position to go to war again until we get cavs and our cities more productive.
The next player should sell the french education or gunpowder for their 93 gpt and 8 gold. The question is which should be sold. If we sell them Gunpowder, they'll have muskets (there's salt outside Paris) which will make them more likely to attack us, but they might have a second source to sell us (doubtful, as we know most of their territory and I saw none).
There is a group of workers outside of Hattusha that can road the iron and connect our spices to the rest of our empire next turn, if the Mongols move off of it. Lagash and Sumer are the only former Sumerian cities worth developing and I would recommend a courthouse immediately after their current builds finish (especially since they've become more effective in 1.15) Lagash is 66% corrupt and makes 15 spt before corruption and could make 23 before corruption at size 12.
The Save
Edit: Also, I forgot to MM Lagash, as it will riot next turn.
Dwip
Warlord
- Joined
- May 5, 2003
- Messages
- 272
[0] 410 AD - Well, here we are. On the plus side: We have horses. We will have iron again, soon. The bad news? Everything else. Our army is...let's not talk about that, actually. The Mongols are...no, let's not talk about that, either.
Among other things, the Mongols and Aztecs are fighting. Too, the Ottos are fighting the Arabs, are at 2CC, and are not long for this world.
Too, I pull the Education deal, as the Gunpowder one seems like a nonstarter. Also, I fix Lagash.
Among other things, the Mongols are up Banking, Physics, and MilTrad on EVERYONE.
(IBT) - Niiiice Mongolses. Nice Mongolses wouldn't hurt poor Smeagol...right?
[1] 420 AD - Tarsus Knight->Spear, Lagash Temple->Spear.
I rush the Temple in Kish for 188 gold. We will, I think, need that iron sooner rather than later.
[2] 430 AD - Kish Temple->Warrior. MMOW.
[3] 440 AD - Tarsus Spear->Longbow prebuild, Hattusha Knight->Marketplace, Ankuwa Spear->Temple.
[4] 450 AD - Stuff. And things.
[5] 460 AD - Ugarit Knight->Marketplace, Lagash Spear->Courthouse, Emar Knight->Temple. MMOW.
(IBT) - Aztecs want to trade territory maps. Sure.
[6] 470 AD - Hattusas Market->Temple, Agade Temple->Pike.
[7] 480 AD - Tyrana Spear->Knight, Erdenet Musket->Walls.
Snag an embassy with Korea because we can. Could get one with the Arabs, too, I suppose, though there's some question as to the length of the Arab lifespan. France somehow knows the Aztecs.
Lots of people now have Banking.
I rush Lagash's courthouse.
(IBT) - Hardcore Aztec smackdowns continue.
[8] 490 AD - Lagash Courthouse->Knight, Aleppo Aqueduct->Colosseum.
(IBT) - Some Aztec city nets Sistine's.
[9] 500 AD - Hattusas Temple->Knight, Tarsus Knight->Knight. Move stuff.
I'll end it here, just to round out the turns.
Save the Knights!
Among other things, the Mongols and Aztecs are fighting. Too, the Ottos are fighting the Arabs, are at 2CC, and are not long for this world.
Too, I pull the Education deal, as the Gunpowder one seems like a nonstarter. Also, I fix Lagash.
Among other things, the Mongols are up Banking, Physics, and MilTrad on EVERYONE.
(IBT) - Niiiice Mongolses. Nice Mongolses wouldn't hurt poor Smeagol...right?
[1] 420 AD - Tarsus Knight->Spear, Lagash Temple->Spear.
I rush the Temple in Kish for 188 gold. We will, I think, need that iron sooner rather than later.
[2] 430 AD - Kish Temple->Warrior. MMOW.
[3] 440 AD - Tarsus Spear->Longbow prebuild, Hattusha Knight->Marketplace, Ankuwa Spear->Temple.
[4] 450 AD - Stuff. And things.
[5] 460 AD - Ugarit Knight->Marketplace, Lagash Spear->Courthouse, Emar Knight->Temple. MMOW.
(IBT) - Aztecs want to trade territory maps. Sure.
[6] 470 AD - Hattusas Market->Temple, Agade Temple->Pike.
[7] 480 AD - Tyrana Spear->Knight, Erdenet Musket->Walls.
Snag an embassy with Korea because we can. Could get one with the Arabs, too, I suppose, though there's some question as to the length of the Arab lifespan. France somehow knows the Aztecs.
Lots of people now have Banking.
I rush Lagash's courthouse.
(IBT) - Hardcore Aztec smackdowns continue.
[8] 490 AD - Lagash Courthouse->Knight, Aleppo Aqueduct->Colosseum.
(IBT) - Some Aztec city nets Sistine's.
[9] 500 AD - Hattusas Temple->Knight, Tarsus Knight->Knight. Move stuff.
I'll end it here, just to round out the turns.
Save the Knights!
Charis
Realms Beyond
Yay, the Mongols were nice to Smeagol!
Charis
Elvis
Dwip
6thGenTexan <-- UP
hotrod <-- On Deck
Yom <-- back in regular spot in lineup, thanks to laptop
Good luck, 6GTx! Move us a step closer to the glory that once was the Hittie Empire!!
Charis
Elvis
Dwip
6thGenTexan <-- UP
hotrod <-- On Deck
Yom <-- back in regular spot in lineup, thanks to laptop
Good luck, 6GTx! Move us a step closer to the glory that once was the Hittie Empire!!
