LOL, Charis. Well, i) is certainly true. You are certainly kind to say that ii) is true. (Hope that you are right). and iii) is also true as I was debating it with myself. So I guess that pencils me in to team C. I just hope that I don't let down the team......
RBCiv Conquests SG Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Charis
- Start date
LOL, Charis. Well, i) is certainly true. You are certainly kind to say that ii) is true. (Hope that you are right). and iii) is also true as I was debating it with myself. So I guess that pencils me in to team C. I just hope that I don't let down the team......
Since no one I know of has beaten a non-elimination Sid game, I would have to think that you're in the same boat as the rest of us Ridgelake. I mean what's the worst that you could do? Ruin our trade rep in the MA (see T-Hawk in TH5), ask for skips due to huge amounts of work, putting more pressure on your teammates (see me during finals, lacrosse season, etc.).
Coffee
Cdn Expat
You'd have to out do my
move in RBC3d also. It takes skill to lose 4 armies. 
T-hawk
Transcend
When I posted suggesting Sid difficulty for the scenario, I was thinking without additional variant restrictions. Why do we need to invent ways to make the game harder when there's another huge difficulty level? 
Going from Deity to Sid reduces the AI cost factor by half - that's a bigger jump than from Regent to Deity!
Does the 7k cultural victory require having double the culture of the next highest civ? If so, it'd be tough-ish even on Deity unrestricted. If not, I think an unrestricted game racing the AIs to 7k culture on Sid could be pretty interesting...
BTW, we need a captain for the C game to make the final decisions on this. Since I haven't even gotten C3C yet, Speaker, would you like to take the helm?
Going from Deity to Sid reduces the AI cost factor by half - that's a bigger jump than from Regent to Deity!
Does the 7k cultural victory require having double the culture of the next highest civ? If so, it'd be tough-ish even on Deity unrestricted. If not, I think an unrestricted game racing the AIs to 7k culture on Sid could be pretty interesting...
BTW, we need a captain for the C game to make the final decisions on this. Since I haven't even gotten C3C yet, Speaker, would you like to take the helm?
T-hawk
Transcend
Fine with me; I won't have C3C until Christmas +/- a day or two anyway.
Kylearan
compound eye
I have serious doubts this scenario is winnable via domination on Sid. Maybe it's comparing apples and oranges, but after RBC3 I am a bit suspicious about the domination limit given the small amount of time. And in this scenario, there's even less time than for the Rise of Rome, *and* you want to try this on a higher level of difficulty? Sid means your rivals will probably get to *the* mega-unit of the game, the silent hunter, a lot earlier than you do, so while I have great faith in the playing skills of team C, I think you'll need a lot of luck here.
On the other hand there won't be any high-defense units once the silent hunter enters the scene, which greatly advantages the human player, and maybe this scenario won't grant the AIs the extra settlers so the pop limit can be reached easier. This will get very interesting.
-Kylearan
On the other hand there won't be any high-defense units once the silent hunter enters the scene, which greatly advantages the human player, and maybe this scenario won't grant the AIs the extra settlers so the pop limit can be reached easier. This will get very interesting.
-Kylearan
Charis
Realms Beyond
All right, now we're movin'!
I had to admit, I have too little knowledge about Sid to know what level of pain team C is in for
My comments have been extrapolations based on two things: i) for other scenarios it has seemed that Demigod lvl equated to somewhere around Monarch in perceived difficulty, and Deity-scenario no harder than Emperor, and ii) the big step-up for deity over emperor is not the cost factor but the extra *settler* and bonus initial units. Lacking those, the actual difficulty lvl is far less - then again I didn't know Sid's cost factor was THAT bad. I look forward to seeing how it goes -- Speaker may have to make on-the-fly adjustments if the rules don't work well at Sid.
As I mentioned to Kylearan, T-Hawk is right in that 7K cultural win also requires double the culture of the next civ. (I know that's "standard" but for some reason didn't think it applied to this scenario) That's going to make things potentially a bear even on deity. After the warning comments from lurkers that this scenario would be too easy, now it's looking kinda beefy! (Again, Sid guys, think about your odds and options and decide what you want to go for)
Status:
A - Mayans (Deity): Charis, Grimjack, Kylearan, Dwip, Justus (started)
B - Incans (Deity): Hotrod, Rubberjello, Sir Bugsy, Gormdragon (good to go)
C - Aztecs(Sid) : Ridgelake, T-Hawk, Speaker, Coffee (starts around Sunday)
Hotrod, let us know if you would like to add Kuningas as a fifth or if you would prefer to stay at four.
Charis
I had to admit, I have too little knowledge about Sid to know what level of pain team C is in for
My comments have been extrapolations based on two things: i) for other scenarios it has seemed that Demigod lvl equated to somewhere around Monarch in perceived difficulty, and Deity-scenario no harder than Emperor, and ii) the big step-up for deity over emperor is not the cost factor but the extra *settler* and bonus initial units. Lacking those, the actual difficulty lvl is far less - then again I didn't know Sid's cost factor was THAT bad. I look forward to seeing how it goes -- Speaker may have to make on-the-fly adjustments if the rules don't work well at Sid.As I mentioned to Kylearan, T-Hawk is right in that 7K cultural win also requires double the culture of the next civ. (I know that's "standard" but for some reason didn't think it applied to this scenario) That's going to make things potentially a bear even on deity. After the warning comments from lurkers that this scenario would be too easy, now it's looking kinda beefy! (Again, Sid guys, think about your odds and options and decide what you want to go for)
Status:
A - Mayans (Deity): Charis, Grimjack, Kylearan, Dwip, Justus (started)
B - Incans (Deity): Hotrod, Rubberjello, Sir Bugsy, Gormdragon (good to go)
C - Aztecs(Sid) : Ridgelake, T-Hawk, Speaker, Coffee (starts around Sunday)
Hotrod, let us know if you would like to add Kuningas as a fifth or if you would prefer to stay at four.
Charis
Coffee
Cdn Expat
Sundays good. Please place me at/near the end of the lineup.
hotrod0823
Deity
I will be able to start tonight after I finish up LK58. I think 5 is fine.
I will post a thread later with the roster / map / etc.
I will post a thread later with the roster / map / etc.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Charis
Realms Beyond
I wanted to summarize the RBC4 Mesoamerica rules, including some clarifications and a minor change on captured units and the capital...
Variant Rules for RBC4
- Only 5 Cities, period, the capital plus four cities founded by settlers coming from the capital. No worked-tile overlap plz.
- Only the capital may pop-rush any buildings
- We may never give nor take gpt in any trade
- We must shift to a Blood Cult govt at some point (even if it's right at the end)
- Win condition: 7K culture win (+ double culture of next civ)
Style points / secondary win condition: 1K culture in EVERY city
- There are FIVE other tribes, so each must be designated as the sacrifice center for ONE other tribe. This occurs and is fixed when the first foreigner is sacrificed in a city - that city then can only sacrifice those from that same tribe. Note that a sacrificial altar with no blood spilt on it would be an abomination to the deities, so don't built an altar unless you have an enslaved foreign unit in hand, or are sure you will before the game ends or that tribe disappears!
- We don't like foreigners trampling in our lands at all. At some point when a full mil-unit roadblock is possible, set one up or plan to give defiant 'get out' orders.
- 'Bought' workers should be renamed and used for actual work, NOT sacrificied. Captured workers otoh must be sacrificed. Please limit early worker purchases to 1 per tribe. Later after you've gone to war with a tribe if they want to sell you more, that's fine.
(The change is that the capital may have a sac altar and sacrifice units of the "fifth" foreign tribe. I was smoking in counting the opponents on my earlier post!)
Reminders about some key points from the civopedia, etc.:
- We'll have too few cities for a Forbidden Palace
- The best way to amass culture is to fight win enslavement UUs and capture as many as possible, sacrificing in city with sac altar
- Later on the Silent Hunter unit rules (5.3.2!), giving a decent but limited window of opportunity for the UU's to do their thing
- Jungle is like bonus grass: 2 food, 1 shield, and can be irrigated for +1f or mined for +1s, road in 3 turns for +1 comm. No death from disease in the jungle.
- Mountains are nice, +1 food, +1 shield, irrigate for +1 food, mine for +2 shields, road for +2 comm! Hills are normal except you can irrigate for +1food. Grass/plains/desert are normal. Rainforest and ocean are useless. Do NOT clear jungles!
- Resources are very different. Strategic ones are stone, rubber, llama, exoctic birds. Jade and tobacco are new lux. Cacao plant, maize and salt on the coast are new bonus resources. Note maize is +4 food!
- City improvemenst are different: tambo, ball court, sacrificial altar are quite nice. Some wonders are extremely nice.
- Suggestion: since the capital is best suited to getting culture by other means, it might want to choose the foreign tribe that is weakest (first likely eliminated) or furthest away, as the one it will sacrifice.
- Turn limit is 175 turns.
Charis
Variant Rules for RBC4
- Only 5 Cities, period, the capital plus four cities founded by settlers coming from the capital. No worked-tile overlap plz.
- Only the capital may pop-rush any buildings
- We may never give nor take gpt in any trade
- We must shift to a Blood Cult govt at some point (even if it's right at the end)
- Win condition: 7K culture win (+ double culture of next civ)
Style points / secondary win condition: 1K culture in EVERY city
- There are FIVE other tribes, so each must be designated as the sacrifice center for ONE other tribe. This occurs and is fixed when the first foreigner is sacrificed in a city - that city then can only sacrifice those from that same tribe. Note that a sacrificial altar with no blood spilt on it would be an abomination to the deities, so don't built an altar unless you have an enslaved foreign unit in hand, or are sure you will before the game ends or that tribe disappears!
- We don't like foreigners trampling in our lands at all. At some point when a full mil-unit roadblock is possible, set one up or plan to give defiant 'get out' orders.
- 'Bought' workers should be renamed and used for actual work, NOT sacrificied. Captured workers otoh must be sacrificed. Please limit early worker purchases to 1 per tribe. Later after you've gone to war with a tribe if they want to sell you more, that's fine.
(The change is that the capital may have a sac altar and sacrifice units of the "fifth" foreign tribe. I was smoking
in counting the opponents on my earlier post!)Reminders about some key points from the civopedia, etc.:
- We'll have too few cities for a Forbidden Palace
- The best way to amass culture is to fight win enslavement UUs and capture as many as possible, sacrificing in city with sac altar
- Later on the Silent Hunter unit rules (5.3.2!), giving a decent but limited window of opportunity for the UU's to do their thing
- Jungle is like bonus grass: 2 food, 1 shield, and can be irrigated for +1f or mined for +1s, road in 3 turns for +1 comm. No death from disease in the jungle.
- Mountains are nice, +1 food, +1 shield, irrigate for +1 food, mine for +2 shields, road for +2 comm! Hills are normal except you can irrigate for +1food. Grass/plains/desert are normal. Rainforest and ocean are useless. Do NOT clear jungles!
- Resources are very different. Strategic ones are stone, rubber, llama, exoctic birds. Jade and tobacco are new lux. Cacao plant, maize and salt on the coast are new bonus resources. Note maize is +4 food!
- City improvemenst are different: tambo, ball court, sacrificial altar are quite nice. Some wonders are extremely nice.
- Suggestion: since the capital is best suited to getting culture by other means, it might want to choose the foreign tribe that is weakest (first likely eliminated) or furthest away, as the one it will sacrifice.
- Turn limit is 175 turns.
Charis
Charis, I would like to suggest that the timing of the sacrifices be up to the team. The rules that you are presenting basically forces everyone to wait to build their altars until the very end. Since we are going for a culture game, and alters do provide culture, it seems overly silly to not allow people to build altars early in the game.
Each team will want (need) to use the captured workers for work. By requiring that all captures be more-or-less immediately sacrificed, you force the delay of building the altar.
How about this for instead: "The FIRST Capture of each civ must be sacrificed ASAP. The altar for that civ cannot be built until a sacrifice is available. Subsequent captures can be sacrificed at the will of the team. "
We will almost assuredly need to make many sacrifices to reach the culture goals. But with this change, some very-needed tile improvements will be feasible.
Each team will want (need) to use the captured workers for work. By requiring that all captures be more-or-less immediately sacrificed, you force the delay of building the altar.
How about this for instead: "The FIRST Capture of each civ must be sacrificed ASAP. The altar for that civ cannot be built until a sacrifice is available. Subsequent captures can be sacrificed at the will of the team. "
We will almost assuredly need to make many sacrifices to reach the culture goals. But with this change, some very-needed tile improvements will be feasible.
Charis
Realms Beyond
Well said Ridgelake -- you're free to build the altars immediately in any city. I just wanted to make a 'RPG' point that an altar without bloood would be a terrible disgrace, so don't let that happen!
Charis
Charis
Charis
Realms Beyond
Congrats and thanks to the folks at Firaxis, Atari and Breakaway for getting the beta patch out tonight!
Link to patch
Each game host will have final decision on whether or not to continue their game patched or unpatched. Since it's a beta, I plan to copy my exisitng directory first and have both available anyway. Unless there's a big flaw though, the changes are so significant and welcome I can't think why any wouldn't move to the patch unless it's nearly done (e.g. Scouting Sid)
Actually, for uniformity sake, I would suggest the two remaining RBC3 Rise Of Rome games continue *unpatched* - they're not far from done anyway.
With Maniac1 it's almost irrelevant, as our rep is trashed for gpt and as we'll never build a FP anyway, but Todd will let us know his wishes. RBC1 Incans would benefit nicely from the patch for the FP if nothing else - so let us know Griselda.
The RBC4 series, Mesoamerica, won't matter much for a and b deity games (no gpt use allowed, no FP), but it will probably be a key point for game C, Sid. In fact I just saw the game started in their thread but not played yet. If T-Hawk notices the patch in time, I hope he can re-generate the game file with the new version - Speaker's call. With game A I don't have a preference, so whatever most folks like is fine with me. If it's a toss up, patch away.
I head out tomorrow morning (health permitting!!) for a nice family-visit long-drive week vacation, and will be out of touch completely until the 31st, so skip me if I come up again in the next week in any game.
Charis
Link to patch
Each game host will have final decision on whether or not to continue their game patched or unpatched. Since it's a beta, I plan to copy my exisitng directory first and have both available anyway. Unless there's a big flaw though, the changes are so significant and welcome I can't think why any wouldn't move to the patch unless it's nearly done (e.g. Scouting Sid)
Actually, for uniformity sake, I would suggest the two remaining RBC3 Rise Of Rome games continue *unpatched* - they're not far from done anyway.
With Maniac1 it's almost irrelevant, as our rep is trashed for gpt and as we'll never build a FP anyway, but Todd will let us know his wishes. RBC1 Incans would benefit nicely from the patch for the FP if nothing else - so let us know Griselda.
The RBC4 series, Mesoamerica, won't matter much for a and b deity games (no gpt use allowed, no FP), but it will probably be a key point for game C, Sid. In fact I just saw the game started in their thread but not played yet. If T-Hawk notices the patch in time, I hope he can re-generate the game file with the new version - Speaker's call. With game A I don't have a preference, so whatever most folks like is fine with me. If it's a toss up, patch away.
I head out tomorrow morning (health permitting!!) for a nice family-visit long-drive week vacation, and will be out of touch completely until the 31st, so skip me if I come up again in the next week in any game.
Charis
T-hawk
Transcend
Would anyone who missed the Mesopotamian scenario be interested in starting up a shot at it on Sid difficulty? Or if you played it and want another shot, that could work too...
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