Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
RBD 4: Introduction to Emperor
- Thread starter Carbon_Copy
- Start date
OneInTen
Darkness bound
A fairly uneventful 10 for me. Mostly just building stuff. France and Germany are now at war, which probably works out well for us.
I did do a lot of tech brokering though.
Here's my notes, I didn't bother with a turn by turn log:
Discover Printing Press
Printing Press to Babs for world map, 17/turn, 20 gold
Printing Press to France for 8/turn, 7 gold
Printing Press to Aztecs for 2/turn, 20 gold
Germany declare war on France
Discover Gunpowder
Trade Silks to France for 5/turn, 70 gold
Ashur deflects to us.
Trade Printing Press and Gunpowder to Germany for Navigation and 20 gold
Trade Navigation to India for 5/turn, 60 gold
Trade Gunpowder to Babs for 2/turn, 30 gold
Trade Navigation to Aztecs for 4/turn
Flora begins Magellan's Voyage
Discover Banking
Trade Banking to Germans for 7/turn, 3 gold
Trade Banking to Aztecs for 8/turn, 13 gold
Trade Banking to Babs for 6/turn, 18 gold
Trade Banking to French for 24 gold
We seem to be slowly swallowing our area with culture. I also deliberately brokered as much as I could since our economy was poor. It's a lot better now, and the other civs are mostly totally broke, which should let us grow a tech lead in upcoming turns. As an added bonus, everyone's quite pleased with us. Joan loves us.
The bad news is we dont have saltpeter, and we'll have to fight if we want to get some I think. However, we do have a fair few units sitting around that at the moment are just costing us money, so some sort of war might be called for (probably need to decide on strategy now and stick to it, so as not to break all the per turn deals I set up).
We've got Magellan's going, which I think we can get. In the turn I saved the game, we'd just started researching Economics, so feel free to change it, it wont cost us anything. I figured Economics was good for us though since it would allow us to shoot for another wonder.
I did do a lot of tech brokering though.
Here's my notes, I didn't bother with a turn by turn log:
Discover Printing Press
Printing Press to Babs for world map, 17/turn, 20 gold
Printing Press to France for 8/turn, 7 gold
Printing Press to Aztecs for 2/turn, 20 gold
Germany declare war on France
Discover Gunpowder
Trade Silks to France for 5/turn, 70 gold
Ashur deflects to us.
Trade Printing Press and Gunpowder to Germany for Navigation and 20 gold
Trade Navigation to India for 5/turn, 60 gold
Trade Gunpowder to Babs for 2/turn, 30 gold
Trade Navigation to Aztecs for 4/turn
Flora begins Magellan's Voyage
Discover Banking
Trade Banking to Germans for 7/turn, 3 gold
Trade Banking to Aztecs for 8/turn, 13 gold
Trade Banking to Babs for 6/turn, 18 gold
Trade Banking to French for 24 gold
We seem to be slowly swallowing our area with culture. I also deliberately brokered as much as I could since our economy was poor. It's a lot better now, and the other civs are mostly totally broke, which should let us grow a tech lead in upcoming turns. As an added bonus, everyone's quite pleased with us. Joan loves us.
The bad news is we dont have saltpeter, and we'll have to fight if we want to get some I think. However, we do have a fair few units sitting around that at the moment are just costing us money, so some sort of war might be called for (probably need to decide on strategy now and stick to it, so as not to break all the per turn deals I set up).
We've got Magellan's going, which I think we can get. In the turn I saved the game, we'd just started researching Economics, so feel free to change it, it wont cost us anything. I figured Economics was good for us though since it would allow us to shoot for another wonder.
Are we starting to get a potential tech lead going here? Do we need to start being careful about how much tech we give away?
Should we be going for some other wonder than Magellan's? Should we be considering devoting more than one city to wonders?
Should we be going for some other wonder than Magellan's? Should we be considering devoting more than one city to wonders?
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Tech stinginess, it seems, is more an art form than a science. Refresh my memory, Zed, Carbon, somebody: what victory options are on the table for this game, and which ones are we considering pursuing? We've done remarkably well at peaceful expansion, having had numerous cities flip to us thanks to several factors. All you folks who did a lot of early military buildup are to thank for that. (I seem to remember mostly building infrastructure or expanding settlements on my turns, except that one when the major war was brewing and I didn't yet know whether we were one of the targets or not). All those units have kept us from being attacked, and just as importantly, kept OUR pressured cities from flipping, due to strong garrison. So... they have flipped to us a lot.
One's moves sounded really good to me. Brokering is often the most effective way to GET a lead. It can also speed or even accelerate that lead. The question is, is more of a lead of more value? Or is it ultimately more beneficial to nurse a lesser lead, but to keep the AI's in lower tech for longer, because your lead has you building rails and factories, and the more time passes, the more of a PRODUCTION edge you develop. Holding them back in the middle age while you rush to steam for production and military advantage is what to do for a military scenerio, but that presumes going on the attack at some point. Are we even considering that here? We might be able to keep our heads low as long the AI's keep going at it. Too much war for them keeps them in unproductive governments. We might win the space race without firing a shot.
What do you fellas think we should set as our goals?
- Sirian
One's moves sounded really good to me. Brokering is often the most effective way to GET a lead. It can also speed or even accelerate that lead. The question is, is more of a lead of more value? Or is it ultimately more beneficial to nurse a lesser lead, but to keep the AI's in lower tech for longer, because your lead has you building rails and factories, and the more time passes, the more of a PRODUCTION edge you develop. Holding them back in the middle age while you rush to steam for production and military advantage is what to do for a military scenerio, but that presumes going on the attack at some point. Are we even considering that here? We might be able to keep our heads low as long the AI's keep going at it. Too much war for them keeps them in unproductive governments. We might win the space race without firing a shot.
What do you fellas think we should set as our goals?
- Sirian
From page 1, post 1, no victory options are disabled.
As it stands I think we've got the moxie to maintain tech parity, but I'm not sure about our ability to pull away from the pack. We could try to use the AI's having given us all their gold as a launch pad to tech supremacy, but I'm concerned that even so they'll be able to keep up at 2nd+ civ prices, given their emperor-level bonuses. Both Azteca and Babylonia are roughly our size in terms of number of cities, so unless they remain at war with each other for a long time and build up a lot of units while neglecting city improvements they ought to be able to keep up.
In short, while we're no longer sucking hind teat, we we're still not the front-runners.
It might be nice to grab enough of India to make it worthwhile to build a FP. They've already been weakened substantially by their (losing) war with Babylon; if we could pull off a quick smash and grab it would solidify our position enough to be reasonably sure of a space (or other) victory; even if one of the AIs pulls off a similar coup, we could probably distract a single opponent sufficiently with a late-game war to ensure we finish first. Any more than that would be heading toward domination or conquest, which I don't think we want to do just yet. Even if the AIs go vulture on whatever part of India we don't grab, it will be more or less useless to them because of its distance from their capitals.
I think that the Aztecs may have given us a good opportunity here by distracting the Babylonians, perhaps we should take advantage of it?
One other alternative would be to try to tackle the Babs while they're still at war with the Aztecs. This is quite a bit riskier in that the Babs are probably the strongest civ on the planet right now, but by the same token if we are successful the rewards are better. We probably don't have enough of an army to pull this one off in the near term, however, whereas we might be able to take a good chunk of India with what we've got (Immortals) and just replace our defenders at home.
As it stands I think we've got the moxie to maintain tech parity, but I'm not sure about our ability to pull away from the pack. We could try to use the AI's having given us all their gold as a launch pad to tech supremacy, but I'm concerned that even so they'll be able to keep up at 2nd+ civ prices, given their emperor-level bonuses. Both Azteca and Babylonia are roughly our size in terms of number of cities, so unless they remain at war with each other for a long time and build up a lot of units while neglecting city improvements they ought to be able to keep up.
In short, while we're no longer sucking hind teat, we we're still not the front-runners.
It might be nice to grab enough of India to make it worthwhile to build a FP. They've already been weakened substantially by their (losing) war with Babylon; if we could pull off a quick smash and grab it would solidify our position enough to be reasonably sure of a space (or other) victory; even if one of the AIs pulls off a similar coup, we could probably distract a single opponent sufficiently with a late-game war to ensure we finish first. Any more than that would be heading toward domination or conquest, which I don't think we want to do just yet. Even if the AIs go vulture on whatever part of India we don't grab, it will be more or less useless to them because of its distance from their capitals.
I think that the Aztecs may have given us a good opportunity here by distracting the Babylonians, perhaps we should take advantage of it?
One other alternative would be to try to tackle the Babs while they're still at war with the Aztecs. This is quite a bit riskier in that the Babs are probably the strongest civ on the planet right now, but by the same token if we are successful the rewards are better. We probably don't have enough of an army to pull this one off in the near term, however, whereas we might be able to take a good chunk of India with what we've got (Immortals) and just replace our defenders at home.
Charis
Realms Beyond
Such complex issues when you can SEE your enemies! 
Sounds like a lot of options, just wanted to pop in and say u guys are going great so far, and wish ya luck...
Charis
Sounds like a lot of options, just wanted to pop in and say u guys are going great so far, and wish ya luck...
Charis
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
We're coming up on 24. Who's up in the order? 
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
See my related post in the Infantry thread for the full details.
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
Not sure how to call this one, but we don't have to decide who we're fighting anymore, at least. Took my "up to 15 turns" option and played 14. Turn by turn:
900 AD
-I survey the game. For some reason, the Aztecs value their world map above all of our possessions. So I am going to send the galley around to fog-bust and see what's so damn valuable (turns out it's nothing)
-Figuring fighting India will be more rewarding than trying to take on Babylon, I start moving surplus Immortals and horse riding units to Arbela to await the finishing of all those cathedrals (which are more or less required to ensure population growth in the east).
-Stalled several cities on growth until they can complete their cathedrals
-Put Delphi on break-even food, max shields. No sense for it to run a surplus at size 12.
910
-Indian settler pair enters our territory. I use some of our surplus military to play passive-aggressive and prevent it from going past the line from Bombay to Arbela.
-buy Music Theory and the French world map for 115 gold. I switch Delphi to JS Bach, though it probably won't finish it
920
-Babs want to renegotiate our gems deal. We're unable to meet any price they set, so every town except for Delphi and a few of the smaller ones go into disorder between turns. I hire entertainers in a lot of them.
-Babylon, France, India all start on JS Bach
930
-Aztecs start JS Bach
-negotiate a silk + 5 gpt for dyes deal with India. I fire all the entertainers I hired last turn.
940
-Susa finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace
-Ockley finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace
950
-zzz
960
-Economics learned, start on Democracy
-drop sci by one, go from -7 gpt to +18
-changed Bacta to courthouse
970
-zzz
980
-Babylon demands Economics. I refuse, they declare war. I guess we won't be needing all those units by India, then
. I begin moving all units that weren't there before back to the western front. I also dispatch a few Immortals to take out Lahore.
-I form an alliance with the Aztecs against Babylon at the cost of their treasury (18g), world map (worthless), and 5 gpt
-Immortal kills a pike guarding Lahore, Golden Age begins. Did that set a record for the latest golden age for Persia ever triggered by an Immortal winning?
990
-Germany finishes JS Bach, Delphi switches to Adam Smith
-Lahore razed. Gordium and Bacta finally have room to breathe now. Cultural borders still encompass all the land, no place for the AI to resettle it.
1000
-MMOT (Much Movement of Troops, the horse-mounted ones arrive at their destinations)
1010
-I go into overtime to get at least a handle on this war before passing off
-Pasargadae finishes University, starts Knight
-Indians and Babs switch to Magellan. India is building it in a size 2 town with no improvements, though the Bab town might give Flora a run.
-I establish an embassy in Paris. Paris is in civil disorder, suffering from big time war weariness.
-I look at the world map and Germany and Azteca are decidedly losing. The Aztecs are down to two cities on their homeland (with a third in India), Germany is down to four cities now.
-I turn the sci slider way down, gain 120+ gold on this turn.
1020
-Persepolis finishes aqueduct, starts knight
-Democracy researched, I hold off on revolt to let the wonders continue and to allow what little wartime production we have right now to continue. We have blunted all their attempts at offense so far, but we have suffered losses in our Immortal ranks that we don't have the capacity to replace right now.
-Chemistry started. 5 turns @ +23 gpt.
1030
-Germans are starting Adam Smith. Since they actually built JS Bach, this is likely from scratch, and they'll probably lose that city to France before it's done for them.
-France offers an alliance vs. Germany and a RoP. I toss in an alliance versus Babylon and the contents of their treasury and call it a deal. I plan on helping France defeat Germany exactly as much as France intends to help us defeat Babylon, but it will help the war weariness a bit to have another ally out there if/when the Aztecs get whooped.
1040
-Burlington finishes cathedral, starts Knight
-Arbela finishes cathedral, starts Knight
-Susa switched to Knight
Summary:
The next 10 turns are crucial. Within that time, almost all of the cathedrals and aqueducts will be built and all of the available wonders will be claimed, one way or another. Flora is six away from Magellan, Delphi is seven away from Adam Smith. We need to get some troops headed west as soon as all those buildings are done, this war would be a lot more to our advantage if we could have held it off until all those "one last building before we start making troops" buildings were done. C'est la vie. Other than razing Lahore, I've done nothing on the offensive. I tried a pre-emptive strike on Akkad, but I was only able to take out one of their defenders before all the horsies were down to 1 hp, and they've since moved a musket into town. Our objective if we are able to take territory would be to control the gems in the south, which probably means taking Akkad, also. We need more troops to do that, though. All my Immortals have been doing are blunting the stacks of knights that they've sent to us (a 4 hp Immortal is usually able to make a 4 hp Knight on a hill retreat, and this also works for mountain-based knights somewhat). The only non-partisan in this fighting is India, and they will join on our side for all the money we have, all the money we are making (in Golden Age commerce), and our world map. Those settler pairs that they were trying to move through our territory I allowed through and they are attempting to settle the abandoned ivories, which may make them more or less likely to turn to our side, I can't tell. They haven't left our territory yet, though.
900 AD
-I survey the game. For some reason, the Aztecs value their world map above all of our possessions. So I am going to send the galley around to fog-bust and see what's so damn valuable (turns out it's nothing)
-Figuring fighting India will be more rewarding than trying to take on Babylon, I start moving surplus Immortals and horse riding units to Arbela to await the finishing of all those cathedrals (which are more or less required to ensure population growth in the east).
-Stalled several cities on growth until they can complete their cathedrals
-Put Delphi on break-even food, max shields. No sense for it to run a surplus at size 12.
910
-Indian settler pair enters our territory. I use some of our surplus military to play passive-aggressive and prevent it from going past the line from Bombay to Arbela.
-buy Music Theory and the French world map for 115 gold. I switch Delphi to JS Bach, though it probably won't finish it
920
-Babs want to renegotiate our gems deal. We're unable to meet any price they set, so every town except for Delphi and a few of the smaller ones go into disorder between turns. I hire entertainers in a lot of them.
-Babylon, France, India all start on JS Bach
930
-Aztecs start JS Bach
-negotiate a silk + 5 gpt for dyes deal with India. I fire all the entertainers I hired last turn.
940
-Susa finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace
-Ockley finishes aqueduct, starts marketplace
950
-zzz
960
-Economics learned, start on Democracy
-drop sci by one, go from -7 gpt to +18
-changed Bacta to courthouse
970
-zzz
980
-Babylon demands Economics. I refuse, they declare war. I guess we won't be needing all those units by India, then
. I begin moving all units that weren't there before back to the western front. I also dispatch a few Immortals to take out Lahore.-I form an alliance with the Aztecs against Babylon at the cost of their treasury (18g), world map (worthless), and 5 gpt
-Immortal kills a pike guarding Lahore, Golden Age begins. Did that set a record for the latest golden age for Persia ever triggered by an Immortal winning?
990
-Germany finishes JS Bach, Delphi switches to Adam Smith
-Lahore razed. Gordium and Bacta finally have room to breathe now. Cultural borders still encompass all the land, no place for the AI to resettle it.
1000
-MMOT (Much Movement of Troops, the horse-mounted ones arrive at their destinations)
1010
-I go into overtime to get at least a handle on this war before passing off
-Pasargadae finishes University, starts Knight
-Indians and Babs switch to Magellan. India is building it in a size 2 town with no improvements, though the Bab town might give Flora a run.
-I establish an embassy in Paris. Paris is in civil disorder, suffering from big time war weariness.
-I look at the world map and Germany and Azteca are decidedly losing. The Aztecs are down to two cities on their homeland (with a third in India), Germany is down to four cities now.
-I turn the sci slider way down, gain 120+ gold on this turn.
1020
-Persepolis finishes aqueduct, starts knight
-Democracy researched, I hold off on revolt to let the wonders continue and to allow what little wartime production we have right now to continue. We have blunted all their attempts at offense so far, but we have suffered losses in our Immortal ranks that we don't have the capacity to replace right now.
-Chemistry started. 5 turns @ +23 gpt.
1030
-Germans are starting Adam Smith. Since they actually built JS Bach, this is likely from scratch, and they'll probably lose that city to France before it's done for them.
-France offers an alliance vs. Germany and a RoP. I toss in an alliance versus Babylon and the contents of their treasury and call it a deal. I plan on helping France defeat Germany exactly as much as France intends to help us defeat Babylon, but it will help the war weariness a bit to have another ally out there if/when the Aztecs get whooped.
1040
-Burlington finishes cathedral, starts Knight
-Arbela finishes cathedral, starts Knight
-Susa switched to Knight
Summary:
The next 10 turns are crucial. Within that time, almost all of the cathedrals and aqueducts will be built and all of the available wonders will be claimed, one way or another. Flora is six away from Magellan, Delphi is seven away from Adam Smith. We need to get some troops headed west as soon as all those buildings are done, this war would be a lot more to our advantage if we could have held it off until all those "one last building before we start making troops" buildings were done. C'est la vie. Other than razing Lahore, I've done nothing on the offensive. I tried a pre-emptive strike on Akkad, but I was only able to take out one of their defenders before all the horsies were down to 1 hp, and they've since moved a musket into town. Our objective if we are able to take territory would be to control the gems in the south, which probably means taking Akkad, also. We need more troops to do that, though. All my Immortals have been doing are blunting the stacks of knights that they've sent to us (a 4 hp Immortal is usually able to make a 4 hp Knight on a hill retreat, and this also works for mountain-based knights somewhat). The only non-partisan in this fighting is India, and they will join on our side for all the money we have, all the money we are making (in Golden Age commerce), and our world map. Those settler pairs that they were trying to move through our territory I allowed through and they are attempting to settle the abandoned ivories, which may make them more or less likely to turn to our side, I can't tell. They haven't left our territory yet, though.
Well, my time's up. Only got 6 turns done, but it evens out the turn increments, right? 
1040 AD (0): Swap production on a few cities. Why we are building Knights in cities without Barracks I don't know. If we're going to build regulars we should at least be building cheap throw-aways like Immortals or Pikemen to get our unit count up so the AI doesn't think we're a pushover. We hurry an aqueduct in Antioch -- it needs to build a barracks, and there's too many shields to waste switching it now. Our military is really on the low end right now, we need more units pronto! I lower our science to 40 - we still get Chemistry in 3 turns and it gives us a bit more gold to play with.
1050 AD (1): Bombay builds Cathedral, starts Pikeman. Persepolis buils Pikeman, starts another. It has 10 shields so low-cost units will be built here. Antioch builds Aqueduct, starts Barracks. There's no way we can hold Ashur, and it has no city improvements, so we switch it to catapult. We move a couple captured workers toward Flora.
1060 AD (2): Tarsus completes Cathedral, starts Harbour -- it's too far away and too low on shields to really help with the war effort, and really needs food. Ashur completes catapult, and we abandon it. Burlington and Persepolis complete Pikemen, start more.
1070 AD (3): Here they come! Babylon retakes Ashur and sends a Knight against Antioch, which knocks itself down to 1 hp and remains vulnerable in our territory. Several more Knights and Pikemen surround Antioch and are moving toward Persepolis. Bombay completes Pikeman, starts Barracks. Susa completes Harbour, starts catapult. We research Chemistry, start Metallurgy - 6 turns. Our Horseman in Antioch kills the 1-hp Babylonian Knight, then returns to the city to be upgraded. Our Immortals cause 3 Knights south of Antioch to retreat, then 2 Horsemen from Flora and Persepolis and a sacrificial warrior from Antioch rush in to finish them off. Our Knight kills a Pikeman guarding a Longbowman. We move a couple Pikes out of Antioch to cover our victorious Horses & Knight.
1080 AD (4): More Babylonian Knights and Longbows approach Antioch. The Longbowman kills our sacrificial warrior, but otherwise no casualtes. War weariness strikes our cities, necessitating some temporary entertainers to prevent unrest. Madras completes Cathedral, starts Barracks. Burlington completes Pikeman, starts another. Arbela completes Knight, starts another. A Knight from Antioch kills a Bab knight on the plain, and a Horseman gets revenge for the warrior & kills the Longbowman. Our Immortals chase 2 Knights into the hills but we are unable to pursue.
1090 AD (5): Yet more Babylonian reinforcements arrive. Our pikes in Antioch kill 2 attacking Longbows but we lose 2 to Knights. We complete a Pikeman in Persepolis and start another. The Indians are building Smith's but they are a bit late. We sortie an Immortal against Ashur and weaken the defending Knight - a followup with one of our Knights kills him and reveals he was Ashur's only defender! We raze the city and get a couple workers, and our Knight withdraws to Antioch. Our catapults and Knights sortie to kill 3 enemy Knights south of Antioch, while an Immortal is killed in exchange for 2 swordsmen outside the city walls. Our Immortal kills a Pikeman outside of Persepolis.
1100 AD (6): An Immortal is killed outside of Antioch by a Knight, but a lone Aztec Longbow travelling from India avenges him! We complete Magellan in Flora and start building Knights. Bombay completes Barracks and starts Pikemen again. Susa completes a catapult and starts another. India and Babylon switch their best cities to Smith's, but we'll finish it next turn. War weariness strikes a couple of cities, which get entertainers. Looks like we've polished off the first wave of Bab knights -- all they've got in the vicinity to throw at us are some spearmen! We kill one with a Knight. Of course, some of those Bab Knights were only wounded, they'll be back. We need a LOT more troops before we start thinking about seriously going on the offensive.
Diplomacy: Didn't do much. Wanted to trade for French luxuries but they don't have a port.
We could shop Chemistry around in theory if we needed anything but we might want to hold onto it if it gives us a tech advantage.
1040 AD (0): Swap production on a few cities. Why we are building Knights in cities without Barracks I don't know. If we're going to build regulars we should at least be building cheap throw-aways like Immortals or Pikemen to get our unit count up so the AI doesn't think we're a pushover. We hurry an aqueduct in Antioch -- it needs to build a barracks, and there's too many shields to waste switching it now. Our military is really on the low end right now, we need more units pronto! I lower our science to 40 - we still get Chemistry in 3 turns and it gives us a bit more gold to play with.
1050 AD (1): Bombay builds Cathedral, starts Pikeman. Persepolis buils Pikeman, starts another. It has 10 shields so low-cost units will be built here. Antioch builds Aqueduct, starts Barracks. There's no way we can hold Ashur, and it has no city improvements, so we switch it to catapult. We move a couple captured workers toward Flora.
1060 AD (2): Tarsus completes Cathedral, starts Harbour -- it's too far away and too low on shields to really help with the war effort, and really needs food. Ashur completes catapult, and we abandon it. Burlington and Persepolis complete Pikemen, start more.
1070 AD (3): Here they come! Babylon retakes Ashur and sends a Knight against Antioch, which knocks itself down to 1 hp and remains vulnerable in our territory. Several more Knights and Pikemen surround Antioch and are moving toward Persepolis. Bombay completes Pikeman, starts Barracks. Susa completes Harbour, starts catapult. We research Chemistry, start Metallurgy - 6 turns. Our Horseman in Antioch kills the 1-hp Babylonian Knight, then returns to the city to be upgraded. Our Immortals cause 3 Knights south of Antioch to retreat, then 2 Horsemen from Flora and Persepolis and a sacrificial warrior from Antioch rush in to finish them off. Our Knight kills a Pikeman guarding a Longbowman. We move a couple Pikes out of Antioch to cover our victorious Horses & Knight.
1080 AD (4): More Babylonian Knights and Longbows approach Antioch. The Longbowman kills our sacrificial warrior, but otherwise no casualtes. War weariness strikes our cities, necessitating some temporary entertainers to prevent unrest. Madras completes Cathedral, starts Barracks. Burlington completes Pikeman, starts another. Arbela completes Knight, starts another. A Knight from Antioch kills a Bab knight on the plain, and a Horseman gets revenge for the warrior & kills the Longbowman. Our Immortals chase 2 Knights into the hills but we are unable to pursue.
1090 AD (5): Yet more Babylonian reinforcements arrive. Our pikes in Antioch kill 2 attacking Longbows but we lose 2 to Knights. We complete a Pikeman in Persepolis and start another. The Indians are building Smith's but they are a bit late.
We sortie an Immortal against Ashur and weaken the defending Knight - a followup with one of our Knights kills him and reveals he was Ashur's only defender! We raze the city and get a couple workers, and our Knight withdraws to Antioch. Our catapults and Knights sortie to kill 3 enemy Knights south of Antioch, while an Immortal is killed in exchange for 2 swordsmen outside the city walls. Our Immortal kills a Pikeman outside of Persepolis. 1100 AD (6): An Immortal is killed outside of Antioch by a Knight, but a lone Aztec Longbow travelling from India avenges him! We complete Magellan in Flora and start building Knights. Bombay completes Barracks and starts Pikemen again. Susa completes a catapult and starts another. India and Babylon switch their best cities to Smith's, but we'll finish it next turn. War weariness strikes a couple of cities, which get entertainers. Looks like we've polished off the first wave of Bab knights -- all they've got in the vicinity to throw at us are some spearmen!
We kill one with a Knight. Of course, some of those Bab Knights were only wounded, they'll be back. We need a LOT more troops before we start thinking about seriously going on the offensive.Diplomacy: Didn't do much. Wanted to trade for French luxuries but they don't have a port.
We could shop Chemistry around in theory if we needed anything but we might want to hold onto it if it gives us a tech advantage.Mrs. Zed has laid down the law! No more Civ on weeknights.
Well, really, it's more like "no staying up late on weeknights," but since the earliest I can even start playing is usually 9:00-9:30, that doesn't leave enough time to be reliably able to get a turn in. Hence, it looks like I will have to bow out. Good luck going forward!
Maybe I can join a new one if my turn is always on a weekend...
Well, really, it's more like "no staying up late on weeknights," but since the earliest I can even start playing is usually 9:00-9:30, that doesn't leave enough time to be reliably able to get a turn in. Hence, it looks like I will have to bow out. Good luck going forward!
Maybe I can join a new one if my turn is always on a weekend...
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Inherited Turn: knowing that we have about six or seven turns of Golden Age left, I find myself faced with a difficult dilemma. When we entered into the deal with Joan, the GA hadn't started yet. If honor it, our whole GA is going to go up in smoke building knights to fight off Babylon, and our future is going to go down the drain. We DID get two wonders of it, and that's great, but... I check with Hammi and he's ready to call it quits on this war, too.
See, the problem is this: post-medieval, a civ can get a military golden age any time it likes. It's called Mobilize for War. I rarely find myself needing to use this option because I usually have a commanding production/infrastructure advantage by this time anyway, and can outproduce an opponent without having to dedicate my entire civ to mobilized unit production. Well, this here situation amounts to a pre-nationalism "mobilize for war" as we are mostly building military. So... what do we have to GAIN from dragging this war out? Nothing except saving our reputation.
Pitting that against a chance to construct a Forbidden Palace NOW, our last real hope of doing so in time to matter, and catching up on infrastructure shortfalls in some places, building banks (which go along with our new Smith wonder) and getting Wall Street online asap... I accept that my decision may be unpopular, and that its costs will be steep, but this war must end. Now.
Before I make peace, I look to see what, if any, final gains I can take from Babylon. Hmm, we don't have all that many units, or rather, most of our knights are wounded. We have one horse and one knight available in spice town, but I recall Zed's report talking about how thin the Bab's seemed to be by the end of his turn. I run our horsie out to scout Akkad. I see one musket, regular. Well, I'm about to make peace anyway, so nothing lost by taking a longshot. I attack. Horsie takes off one hp, then retreats. I send in our knight... he kills the musket... AND AKKAD FALLS TO US!
Hammi and I make peace, I extort his treasury and some gpt, and Joanie is now quite upset with us, and our reputation is shot. The AI's are going to want cash now for luxuries, they won't be taking gpt. But we have Sistine, and if cathedrals can be built, and the FP brought online, we'll get through it.
I swap Pasargadae to Forbidden Palace (thank goodness it was almost done with cathedral.) I swap to courthouses in Bombay and Madras, and infrastructure in every city we own, maxing shields, and in some cases running food deficits. At 2 food deficit per turn, Pasargadae says "10 turns" for the FP. The GA will run out before then, but I get all I can out of it.
1110AD: Smith completed in Delphi. Yay. Starts bank. Chemistry researched, start Physics, make trade deal with Joanie, one lux and some minor cash for one of her lux. Lux rate dropped to 10% and science pushed to get Physics in 4 turns.
1120AD: Resistance ends in Akkad. Starvation begins.
1140AD: Fort Sirian founded in gap between us and Babs, to serve as our forward defense base, and provide more buffer for them to have to go through to threaten Flora.
1150AD: Physics learned, start Theory of Gravity.
1160AD: Dephi finishes bank, starts cranking pikes at 1 per turn. Burlington finished its bank and is building pikes every three turns.
1180AD: Our golden age is over. The announcement will come next turn, but I see the production bonuses are gone now. The FP, which was 2 turns short of completion, now need 4 more turns. I put delphi on colleseum placeholder, pending the next wonder. Joan starts building Shakespeare's.
1190AD: I increase Pasargadae food deficit to FIVE per turn (with 11 units left in its granary) to speed FP production by one turn, now due in two more turns instead of three.
1200AD: Theory of Grav learned, start Magnetism. I hoped to make it by 1250, when my 15 turns max comes due, but it doesn't look like that will be possible. Delphi now building Newton.
1210AD: Forbidden Palace completed in Pasargadae. They desperately need a cathedral, but they also have just one food left in the box, so I have to put them on food surplus, and the cathedral will just have to take a bit longer. The good news: we have a bunch more production and income from all our eastern cities now, including some that were hopeless that will now become major cities once rails come online. Several cities finish vital infrstructure upgrades and are swapped back to military production.
1220AD: Babs make peace with Aztecs, who have lost their entire homeland. They now start moving toward US again, and I am sending pikes westward as fast as they will go.
1230AD: I rush the library in Fort Sirian, at ~120gold. Need to push those borders back. No such rush in Akkad, where flip danger is deemed too high, plus we don't have the budget for it anyway.
1240AD: Babs now moving aggressively into our territory. I don't like this, as we may go back to nasty war weariness if they attack us too soon, before that can unwind itself. Plus, they have been cranking knights while we build buildings. Just need to hold out a FEW more turns, then we could mobilize for war (I expect us to get Nationalism for free as our new era gift).
1250AD: I get reinforcement pikes into western cities. Babs turn around and head home. Guess they changed their mind? We are still one turn away from Magnetism and my production gambit is not quite complete. I make the presumptuous decision to run over the deadline to consolidate our situation.
1255AD: We research magnetism, enter a new era, get Nationalism for free, and start on Steam Power (due in 8 turns at break-even rates). Whew. I blow our treasury on a single pike upgrade to rifle in silks town, where there half a dozen Bab knights hanging out, on their way back into their territory.
So here's what we have achieved to counter our diplomatic black eye: we have a forbidden palace. We have a MUCH better economy, now with five banks, and able to build wall street (though I think get Newton first). I have completed VITAL infrastructure upgrades in almost every city, and have swapped half of them back to military production, with several riles underway and some barracks in other cities ready to start building units. Akkad was starved down, though some inattentiveness to that on my part delayed the process. Sorry.
If Babs or anyone else attacks us, MOBILIZE and give them the full business. As good as our economy now has become, we're lacking saltpeter, and should concentrate (IMO) on building rifles and only rifles, as units. It would cost us too much to get saltpeter, either way, for cavalry, in my view, and we frankly DO NOT WANT any more territory, with the possible exception of Shurrupak and its gems, or Delhi and its Leo wonder.
Next player up has wide open options, on every front except diplomatic. I made some very tough choices here, but I felt that squandering the tail end of our Golden Age, now that my predecessors had fought the war well enough for Babs to offer us peace, was simply too high of a price to pay for keeping our word to France. This is Emperor, after all, and trying to sustain a full 20 turns of alliance in representative governments is dicey at best.
I'll give back that extra turn next time I'm up, and take just 9. I would suggest not revolting to Democracy until we have finished Newton and built some more rifles. We NEED to swap to Demo, IMO, but the cost of losing Newton or getting caught in a new war with Babs unable to produce units, is just too risky for the short term, so the change should wait.
- Sirian
See, the problem is this: post-medieval, a civ can get a military golden age any time it likes. It's called Mobilize for War. I rarely find myself needing to use this option because I usually have a commanding production/infrastructure advantage by this time anyway, and can outproduce an opponent without having to dedicate my entire civ to mobilized unit production. Well, this here situation amounts to a pre-nationalism "mobilize for war" as we are mostly building military. So... what do we have to GAIN from dragging this war out? Nothing except saving our reputation.
Pitting that against a chance to construct a Forbidden Palace NOW, our last real hope of doing so in time to matter, and catching up on infrastructure shortfalls in some places, building banks (which go along with our new Smith wonder) and getting Wall Street online asap... I accept that my decision may be unpopular, and that its costs will be steep, but this war must end. Now.
Before I make peace, I look to see what, if any, final gains I can take from Babylon. Hmm, we don't have all that many units, or rather, most of our knights are wounded. We have one horse and one knight available in spice town, but I recall Zed's report talking about how thin the Bab's seemed to be by the end of his turn. I run our horsie out to scout Akkad. I see one musket, regular. Well, I'm about to make peace anyway, so nothing lost by taking a longshot. I attack. Horsie takes off one hp, then retreats. I send in our knight... he kills the musket... AND AKKAD FALLS TO US!
Hammi and I make peace, I extort his treasury and some gpt, and Joanie is now quite upset with us, and our reputation is shot. The AI's are going to want cash now for luxuries, they won't be taking gpt. But we have Sistine, and if cathedrals can be built, and the FP brought online, we'll get through it.
I swap Pasargadae to Forbidden Palace (thank goodness it was almost done with cathedral.) I swap to courthouses in Bombay and Madras, and infrastructure in every city we own, maxing shields, and in some cases running food deficits. At 2 food deficit per turn, Pasargadae says "10 turns" for the FP. The GA will run out before then, but I get all I can out of it.
1110AD: Smith completed in Delphi. Yay. Starts bank. Chemistry researched, start Physics, make trade deal with Joanie, one lux and some minor cash for one of her lux. Lux rate dropped to 10% and science pushed to get Physics in 4 turns.
1120AD: Resistance ends in Akkad. Starvation begins.
1140AD: Fort Sirian founded in gap between us and Babs, to serve as our forward defense base, and provide more buffer for them to have to go through to threaten Flora.
1150AD: Physics learned, start Theory of Gravity.
1160AD: Dephi finishes bank, starts cranking pikes at 1 per turn. Burlington finished its bank and is building pikes every three turns.
1180AD: Our golden age is over. The announcement will come next turn, but I see the production bonuses are gone now. The FP, which was 2 turns short of completion, now need 4 more turns. I put delphi on colleseum placeholder, pending the next wonder. Joan starts building Shakespeare's.
1190AD: I increase Pasargadae food deficit to FIVE per turn (with 11 units left in its granary) to speed FP production by one turn, now due in two more turns instead of three.
1200AD: Theory of Grav learned, start Magnetism. I hoped to make it by 1250, when my 15 turns max comes due, but it doesn't look like that will be possible. Delphi now building Newton.
1210AD: Forbidden Palace completed in Pasargadae. They desperately need a cathedral, but they also have just one food left in the box, so I have to put them on food surplus, and the cathedral will just have to take a bit longer. The good news: we have a bunch more production and income from all our eastern cities now, including some that were hopeless that will now become major cities once rails come online. Several cities finish vital infrstructure upgrades and are swapped back to military production.
1220AD: Babs make peace with Aztecs, who have lost their entire homeland. They now start moving toward US again, and I am sending pikes westward as fast as they will go.
1230AD: I rush the library in Fort Sirian, at ~120gold. Need to push those borders back. No such rush in Akkad, where flip danger is deemed too high, plus we don't have the budget for it anyway.
1240AD: Babs now moving aggressively into our territory. I don't like this, as we may go back to nasty war weariness if they attack us too soon, before that can unwind itself. Plus, they have been cranking knights while we build buildings. Just need to hold out a FEW more turns, then we could mobilize for war (I expect us to get Nationalism for free as our new era gift).
1250AD: I get reinforcement pikes into western cities. Babs turn around and head home. Guess they changed their mind? We are still one turn away from Magnetism and my production gambit is not quite complete. I make the presumptuous decision to run over the deadline
to consolidate our situation.1255AD: We research magnetism, enter a new era, get Nationalism for free, and start on Steam Power (due in 8 turns at break-even rates). Whew. I blow our treasury on a single pike upgrade to rifle in silks town, where there half a dozen Bab knights hanging out, on their way back into their territory.
So here's what we have achieved to counter our diplomatic black eye: we have a forbidden palace. We have a MUCH better economy, now with five banks, and able to build wall street (though I think get Newton first). I have completed VITAL infrastructure upgrades in almost every city, and have swapped half of them back to military production, with several riles underway and some barracks in other cities ready to start building units. Akkad was starved down, though some inattentiveness to that on my part delayed the process. Sorry.
If Babs or anyone else attacks us, MOBILIZE and give them the full business. As good as our economy now has become, we're lacking saltpeter, and should concentrate (IMO) on building rifles and only rifles, as units. It would cost us too much to get saltpeter, either way, for cavalry, in my view, and we frankly DO NOT WANT any more territory, with the possible exception of Shurrupak and its gems, or Delhi and its Leo wonder.
Next player up has wide open options, on every front except diplomatic. I made some very tough choices here, but I felt that squandering the tail end of our Golden Age, now that my predecessors had fought the war well enough for Babs to offer us peace, was simply too high of a price to pay for keeping our word to France. This is Emperor, after all, and trying to sustain a full 20 turns of alliance in representative governments is dicey at best.
I'll give back that extra turn next time I'm up, and take just 9. I would suggest not revolting to Democracy until we have finished Newton and built some more rifles. We NEED to swap to Demo, IMO, but the cost of losing Newton or getting caught in a new war with Babs unable to produce units, is just too risky for the short term, so the change should wait.
- Sirian
Jaffa Tamarin
Monkey Cult
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 570
I definitely won't get to this before tomorrow.
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
I must press my fingers to keyboard in other endeavors until I can get a project due 11:59 pm on Monday out the door. If it gets to me from Jaffa and OneInTen before Tuesday, and Sirian is feeling frisky, he can just skp me. BTW, with Zed out, the turn order should now be:
Carbon
Sirian
Jaffa
One
Not looking for replacements, though I don't think there are too many who would volunteer.
As for the way this game is going, I should reiterate that this was intended as a no-pressure learning experience. If there's any harebrained schemes or walking-the-knife's-edge gambits that anyone is wanting to try, I wouldn't mind steering this game into the ground too much if it's in the name of science and we all learn something from this game (besides that it takes Babylon a lot less time to build stuff than it takes us). Having stated that, I would appreciate you mentioning your intention to do something wacky first before going out and doing it, and it's also worth mentioning that suicide and autonihilism are neither schemes nor gambits (at least give us half a shot to succeed).
Phrased another way, I'd like to see a bit more "risky" play here, with the real chance of losing out, rather than what we've been doing for most of the game, which is middle of the road conservative play leading to an inevitable late-Industrial/early modern clearing of the board when the AI finds itself unable to cope with tanks and artillery (and I won't deny that I'm the most guilty of that of the entire bunch).
Carbon
Sirian
Jaffa
One
Not looking for replacements, though I don't think there are too many who would volunteer.
As for the way this game is going, I should reiterate that this was intended as a no-pressure learning experience. If there's any harebrained schemes or walking-the-knife's-edge gambits that anyone is wanting to try, I wouldn't mind steering this game into the ground too much if it's in the name of science and we all learn something from this game (besides that it takes Babylon a lot less time to build stuff than it takes us). Having stated that, I would appreciate you mentioning your intention to do something wacky first before going out and doing it, and it's also worth mentioning that suicide and autonihilism are neither schemes nor gambits (at least give us half a shot to succeed).
Phrased another way, I'd like to see a bit more "risky" play here, with the real chance of losing out, rather than what we've been doing for most of the game, which is middle of the road conservative play leading to an inevitable late-Industrial/early modern clearing of the board when the AI finds itself unable to cope with tanks and artillery (and I won't deny that I'm the most guilty of that of the entire bunch).
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
What's wrong with conservative?
I would imagine just posting any kind of win for what appears to be (yes? no? ???) the first Emperor level succession game at this forum, would be enough to shoot for. We appear to have survived the most dicey periods, but it's not yet in the bag.
What kind of gambits are you talking about anyway? Almost sounds as if you're disappointed that we're not getting munched on by the AI's here?
- Sirian
I would imagine just posting any kind of win for what appears to be (yes? no? ???) the first Emperor level succession game at this forum, would be enough to shoot for. We appear to have survived the most dicey periods, but it's not yet in the bag.
What kind of gambits are you talking about anyway? Almost sounds as if you're disappointed that we're not getting munched on by the AI's here?
- Sirian
Carbon_Copy
Elemental
Actually, I did kind of expect us to be handed a loss at one point or another by this time. We got by far the worst starting conditions of any civ, though we were fortunate enough to not draw the Aztec sharks as our ancient era next door neighbors.
I guess that I'm just somewhat disappointed that we've been unable to do anything more to this point than to struggle forward with our building efforts and react to the AI when the AI forces us to react. I guess if we can get to Hoover this game that we could finally move from reaction to proaction, but I'm pondering our chances of ending up with rubber or coal in our territory, we didn't get any jungle in our starting position. Though if we do get coal, I'd say we've got a better chance than usual of drawing a city capable of Iron Works.
And one more thing. To the southeast of Delphi there's a few dead squares. After seeing how well Phoenix and New Bombay have done us in RBD 3, would we be able to squeeze a drafting city in that gap? Do we have a potential drafting city already in place? Would help our military a ton to have "free" infantry/rifles every turn.
I guess that I'm just somewhat disappointed that we've been unable to do anything more to this point than to struggle forward with our building efforts and react to the AI when the AI forces us to react. I guess if we can get to Hoover this game that we could finally move from reaction to proaction, but I'm pondering our chances of ending up with rubber or coal in our territory, we didn't get any jungle in our starting position. Though if we do get coal, I'd say we've got a better chance than usual of drawing a city capable of Iron Works.
And one more thing. To the southeast of Delphi there's a few dead squares. After seeing how well Phoenix and New Bombay have done us in RBD 3, would we be able to squeeze a drafting city in that gap? Do we have a potential drafting city already in place? Would help our military a ton to have "free" infantry/rifles every turn.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
I already put a city there, sorry for not mentioning it. I didn't do so specifically as a draft city, though. It has 3 grassland and one lake tile. With rails, that's 16 food, so it could support size 8 with four mined mountains in use, that could be quite the producer with a factory, and that's presuming it doesn't borrow any land.
The Draft Rush, rather like the Despotic Whip Rush, relies on the faulty priorities of happiness effects. It's honestly something that ought to be corrected in a new patch. I know I introduced it in RBD3, but I'm growing less comfortable with exploiting it. I have 500 units in my prototype infantry game (single player), and almost half of them came from the draft. That has rather made the game too easy, I fear. Like the whip, the draft is a really nice tool to have on hand, but something's definitely amiss with the ability to draft endlessly without penalty. It's one thing to use it in a city or two on a large map bent on conquest, and perhaps something else in this situation. After all, we don't necessarily have all that long to wait. A space victory might be a better option than conquest. Unless we plan to try to conquer the whole planet, we actually don't want any more land. We're at the limit of what we can handle in terms of corruption.
Rubber can also show up in forests, and we had some of those. If not, maybe we'll take some rubber from India.
As for just eking it out and taking what the AI's let us have, that's the way things break in Emperor games, especially ones played in classic style, rather than whip frenzy. You start out behind and play to catch up. My move to build the FP and bolster our main infrastructure was aimed precisely at pushing us past the AI on research and production.
Now that we can mobilize, and draft, anybody wanting a piece can come get some. :soldier:
- Sirian
The Draft Rush, rather like the Despotic Whip Rush, relies on the faulty priorities of happiness effects. It's honestly something that ought to be corrected in a new patch. I know I introduced it in RBD3, but I'm growing less comfortable with exploiting it. I have 500 units in my prototype infantry game (single player), and almost half of them came from the draft. That has rather made the game too easy, I fear. Like the whip, the draft is a really nice tool to have on hand, but something's definitely amiss with the ability to draft endlessly without penalty. It's one thing to use it in a city or two on a large map bent on conquest, and perhaps something else in this situation. After all, we don't necessarily have all that long to wait. A space victory might be a better option than conquest. Unless we plan to try to conquer the whole planet, we actually don't want any more land. We're at the limit of what we can handle in terms of corruption.
Rubber can also show up in forests, and we had some of those. If not, maybe we'll take some rubber from India.
As for just eking it out and taking what the AI's let us have, that's the way things break in Emperor games, especially ones played in classic style, rather than whip frenzy. You start out behind and play to catch up. My move to build the FP and bolster our main infrastructure was aimed precisely at pushing us past the AI on research and production.
Now that we can mobilize, and draft, anybody wanting a piece can come get some. :soldier:
- Sirian
sgrig
Comrade
Great succession game!
Could somebody please post a screenshot?
Could somebody please post a screenshot?
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