RBD13 SG - Cretan Army Variant

[meldor]

I saw almost no horses until the very end when I saw one or two knights come across. They must have lost them all against the Chineese.

Once I removed the ROP all of there units heading south turned back. However, we know the spears and settlers won't observe the borders like the armed units.

There will be a ton of knights coming up....this may be the perfect time to strike at Russia (after canceling the alliance vs China).

But, Meldor has once again wandered back to Littos to get some sun. Maybe he will stop in Sirian's hamlet and have a chat.

 

[Sirian]

Maybe he will stop in Sirian's hamlet and have a chat.

Hey, any time! We'll sip some tea, draw lines in the dirt and poke the earth with sticks, and call them "Dot Maps". Such are the makings of the plans of empires.

- Sirian

 

[Ozymandous]

Is the roster closed for this game yet? I would think so, but I noticed that Charius initially mentioned that people could jump in here after the first group got their initial turns in.

Just checking.

 

[Arathorn]

Getting it....

 

[Charis]

With a solid eight folks we're going to stick with 'closed' right now, but if that changes or participation drops, Ozy, we'll get you in there.

Thanks,
Charis

PS Good luck, Ara

 

[Arathorn]

Short version of events.

Ar-A-Thorn-in-their-Sides, the Grumpy One made peace with China, fought a war against the aggressive Russians, built Wall Street, and got a demand for the Pentagon.

The Grumpy one went over a bit with some unfinished business and leaves the treasury about 5000 poorer than when he started.

Arathorn

Edit: Save file deleted.

 

[Charis]

Somebody took out da trash!!!

Looking at the save file, man, that was a whoopin you must have put on the Russians!

One thing, can't let you off THAT easy -- can you give us SOME idea of what went on?? Did Russia provoke us? Did we sneak attack them and hurt ourselves (I did check we can get gpt offers anyway - the high move of bulls means you didn't need to even consider RoP stab) What carried the day- bulls? armies? knights? the huge sum of gold I left you? (almost choked on reading that last sentence... that type of fiscal (ir)responsibility is usually due to one person around here (cough), but I'm doing better)

Would guess crushing them in ex-China is top priority -- hold defensive at Wormtown or would your assessment me to continue to press forward there as well (two front, although one enemy)

Most 'faces' look kind of unhappy at us... anything else go on?

Good turn!!
Charis

 

[Arathorn]

Reconstructed history of 700 - 820 AD:

Ar-A-Thorn-in-Their-Sides, the Grumpy One, came to power in 700 AD. His reign was far from the enlightened one that most of the Minoans had come to expect.

The Grumpy One came to power in an unusual way. Striding into the palace, he tripped the previous leader, Meldor, who was fleeing cattle prods. "Get out! I'm in charge here now!" No one dared disagree with him -- or his pregnant/hormonal wife and hyper/insane/loud/naughty two-year-old.

The official records of the time are sketchy. The last entry in the official history runs something like this....

"Oct. 1, 800 -- The Grumpy One made a new edict today. Anyone questioning his authority would immediately be gored, trampled, drawn-and-quartered, and then what could be gathered up would be hanged. This is so contrary to our Law Code [Editor: which prescribed a variety of fines or even prison sentences but no torture or death penalty] that I am going myself to complain."

The lack of continuing records and the scant data available from the time of the Grumpy One hints that the brave recorder was the first of many to suffer that fate.

As such, the records are sketchy and most of what is known of this time has been tediously reconstructed from the history of other civilizations.

It is known that in his very first year, the Grumpy One dodged multiple cattle prods to purchase a very great army. He appeared to have a deep-set fear and loathing of the Russians, which was only too gladly returned.

Where the rest of the money went is a great mystery -- cheap women, cheap wine, and fast bull-pulled chariots can only cost so much. It is known that some of the army was upgraded, many new troops were purchased, banks (including one very large exchange on a well-protected avenue [Wall Street] in Wormtongue) built, and other actions taken.

Militarily, the Grumpy One fared quite well, other than being an abysmal failure by capturing a few cities late in his realm [mea maxima culpa -- was in the no-culture, attack capitals with armies, build bulls mode -- razed a ton at the beginning but forgot at the end in the press of covering every square culturally. If this is too much out of character, I would not be offended at all if my turns were nixed as "alternate history"]. The lowlight of his career was a Russian spearmen attacking and capturing a city in the southeast guarded by a musketman. Highlights include the brief histories of two popular generals, lauded by the people and quickly exterminated [one for Wall Street, one for a nearly empty army in Wormtongue], as well as the elimination of a great many Russian cities.

Diplomatically, it's a mixed bag. The "polite" Russians declared war on the Grumpy One, so off-put were they by his demeanor. An alliance with India was cancelled. Then, a mutually acceptable peace package was agreed on with China. Very few trades occurred during the 120-year reign of the Grumpy One, a couple techs and one luxury only. Many foreign rulers were so distressed after visiting the Grumpy One that their people slowly turned against the Cretans, although the stunning lack of "culture" may have played a role in that as well.

As a further sign of his unpleasantness, the Grumpy One refused to leave office when the election went against him. Citing "unfinished business" (according to the underground reporting, which had just begun to become stealthy enough to survive), Ar-A-Thorn-in-their-Sides ruled on 20 years. It is believed that in this time, the last vestiges of Russian rule in the northeast were eliminated, the abomination of a Russian city surrounded by Cretans in the south was exterminated, and a few other piddly details taken care of.

Finally, the cattle prods got the better of the Grumpy One. Despite his insistence that being ZAPPED! was better than being at home, his blackened, sweet-smelling, charcoaled body was found in a chair. Rumors of previous rulers actually rising from the dead to commit the act are probably true and should be treated as such.

Thus ends this sad chapter in the Cretan history....

Who will now lead the people? Will they write this experience off as merely a weed-induced dream? Will any of the Grumpy One's descendents ever hold power again? The questions are many, the answers few.

Arathorn

P.S. Too tired to write anything up last night. Meant to mention that. Sorry.

 

[Arathorn]

The settler train headed up to old China is sadly in need of reinforcements. The whole China area is getting pretty thin -- had some nasty battles up there, nearly losing a 12 hp bull army to a defending pike. Production is basically zero there and some cities are still defenseless. I expect a few cities to flip to China, too.

Wormtongue has been playing defense -- 'pulting stuff and then sending out troops to clean up the trash. Still probably not enough troops there for an offensive, but it may be close.

I saw a chance for a big military push and sacrificed the treasury to make it. What good is 5K in the bank if you don't use it? I wasn't too irresponsible, though, as our gpt went from ~220 to ~350 and we don't even have full Wall Street benefits yet.

I really did pretty much ignore diplomacy. Next leader should probably make the rounds ASAP.

Russia really did declare war on us.

Troops from the NE can now be redeployed to the N and/or the NW. The Russian NW is pretty much out of gas and needs settlers at least as much as troops. Up to the next leader -- twould be bold to attack on both fronts but probably possible. Would be more prudent to clean up China and then go into the Russian heartland. Cathy is mainly attacking with longbows at this point, though, so I have little or no fear.

I used mainly bulls in the NW, mostly knights in the NE with a couple bulls playing fast clean-up, knights/bulls/muskets/pikes in the middle (pikes to clean up workers primarily).

Fun turns and what I needed. I feel pretty horrible about capturing cities, though.

Arathorn

 

[Charis]

All right, thanks for the update!!

The people were just dying to know
Russia *Declared* on us??!! Wowza, didn't quite
expect that. I wonder if anything provoked them or they just
ran out of space to conquer and thought us thin. That'll teach 'em!! We'll need to finish off Russia cities in ex-China before they get Cossacks. Also need to brace wormy up big time before that happens.

Ouch on the bull army, but... it led a glorious life until then.

On the city capture... don't kick yourself, it was bound to happen at some point, frankly There's very little if any long term affect from this, no problem. We can correct, let's see...
(btw, I assume the city they captured back from us was greater than size 1 - we get autorazed since our cities have no culture, if size 1)

- Any city with culture is a cancer on our nation and needs to be disbanded. We repudiate what the world calls culture.
- A city that was captured would almost certainly 'revolt' if subjected to the rule of the Cretans. We should 'force-revolt' for them by giving the city back to the original nation. (Ouch, I know)
- We're not talking to vile Russia right now, and any city that was mistakenly captured and gave us any lip would be razed. (Ok, we tried to be nice and spare you, but suit yourselves!)

Conclusion-
- Disband any captured city that has culture
- Give back to China any captured city not tainted with culture
- Disband any captured Russian city
- Get some genuine settlers from Crete up there quickly to fill in the zones.
- If we can spare any troops, get some cheap defenders to garrison the cities near their new capital. (Fortunately, China's culture is as miserable as ours)

How to disband? Get it to the beginning of size 3 (grow it if smaller, starve it if bigger). Pop-rush a settler there, and set all workers to entertainers. You'll get a dialog box next turn saying it's too small to finish the settler, delay, zoom or abandon the city - chose the latter. Too bad you can't give a city to someone you're at war with -- the quicker disband is to give it away then assault it again and raze it.

Not a problem, we'll continue to come up with "in-role" solutions to problems that come up. Great job kicking butt on the vile warmongering Russians!!

The game is open - if the above steps are clear, someone should go ahead and take it. (If no one has by tonight I'll do a quick turn to try to get this fix in place. Or if the fixes don't get done right away, I'll fix at the time of my next turn)

What are thoughts from others on China? Let them live and slow down the tech race a bit, or finish them off and protect our cities from flipping? (We'll have to wait about 20 turns for the latter to avoid being foul)

Charis

 

[meldor]

Russia declared because Meldor was prodded into dropping ROP with them. Thus cutting their little empire in three, and stopping them from grabbing any more of China. It cut them off from what they needed. Unfortunately for them once they declared, it also cut them off from a lot of there trade routes and probably killed production in outlying cities as they converted to entertainers. I didn't expect them to get that nasty that soon...they were gracious until killing ROP.....Cathy goes nuts again. After, mother Russia is gone and China is history....is it America or Rome?

 

[Arathorn]

Probably Rome.

Caesar tried making a few demands of the Grumpy One. He walked away empty-handed each time.

And with his one city nestled in there amongst ours in the SE, it looks likely.

'Twould be my guess anyway.

With as much fighting and allying as we've done, I'm amazed to think our rep is still probably spotless. Even the early English war wasn't instigated by us, was it?

Egypt might make a run for choosing unwisely next, too. Cleo had some knights coming in toward our territory near the end of the Grumpy One's reign.

I'd still bet on Caesar, though.



As far as China goes, we'll have to wipe 'em out eventually, no? We win by conquest or not at all, right? I would think that once the NW of Russia is cleaned up, sending the two bull armies (both still live, Charis -- one just got BADLY hurt) toward China would make a lot of sense. By then, 20 turns will probably have expired and it's just a start-war stain not a broken peace treaty tarnish on our reps. That's what I was envisioning anyway.

Arathorn

 

[Charis]

Charis Thesseus Minos called the "Cultural Police" to investigate a
recent scandal in former-China. A tremendous and glorious victory had been
won against what appeared to be superior forces, by Arathorn the Mighty!
And yet... there were found to be a slew of Chinese and Russian nationals
in 'Cretan' cities, and... rumors of foreign "culture" polluting the minds
of our youth. An investigator was sent out to check on these reports...

The year was 820 AD...

Culturus Minimos was quite pleased to see that no Chinese or Russian culture
of ANY sort had permeated the hearts (or the cities) of the people. This
was a great relief to the leaders, and a huge parade was thrown for Arathorn
the mighty! It was thrown right on Wall Street, the incredible new
boulevard which Ara himself had fashioned. This, it was hoped, would start a
new era of fiscal responsibility, maintaining 1000 gold in the royal treasury.

They noted that the work order for the Forbidden Palace was confused. There
was already a great Bull Ring in Knossos, what was needed here was the
University of Crete and a Cathedral of Forbidden Knowledge. These would be
carried out post-haste.

As far as charges of town capture were concerned, it was seen that there
were resisters in 'Sting This'. Russians who were HAPPY at joining the great
nation of Crete were found in Maikop and Curse. A happy Chinese peasant was
found in Xinjian.

Sting This was an abomination. A large number of whining Russians and few
Cretans -- it had to go, so we set to bleed off a worker then settler and get
rid of it asap. (Not only that, it was not 'in the lanes' )

Xinjian was a blackmark on Cretan history. The people of Xinjian were guilty
of Bull torture and murder, and it was decided the Cretans would never live
in such a land. This vile city could not, however, be returned to the Chinese,
for its history was dark. It had to be disbanded.

In Curse a settler was found ready to go, but the city to small to support his
leaving. Maikop was identically where we hoped to re-settle. It was seen as an
act of mercy that it was spared -- also this was clearly NOT original Russian
land, rather English slaves, so we welcomed them into the kingdom (would grow
asap to get more Cretans in there though).

So the final assessment of Culturus Minimos...
Disband Xinjian and Sting This, and welcome the people of Curse and Maikop,
renaming those cities as "Cursed Blessing" and "MyCoup". All charges against
Arathorn the mighty were dropped, and the military wrote spendid things of
his reign!

The inspectors from Pungentoss did find minor anomolies, like massive food
excess and a mere 14 shields at our nation's very capital. To reaffirm our
support for the capitol, the glorious Pentagon project was started.
They found Sandcastle at size 1 with workers set up for no food
Rafkos was shifted around to become a 10-shield town. The people of Pamplona
were dismayed to see no Bulls running in their town, so they switched.
(They found also the town of Rusty, with Russians in it, but it seemed
so peaceful and happy, and clear of foreign culture, it was not added to
'the list'. Workers were to be bled from the city.)

Finally, we check diplomacy. Rome offers Navigation for Silks. Annoyed Egypt
and Furious Japan, would sell Nav for 110 gold. Annoyed Americans and Germans
would trade it for dyes. India would trade it for wines. (No one seems to have
any cash) We'll avoid new deals with Rome and America as potential next targets.
Hmmm, no RoP's - are they annoyed because of this or because of a stereotype?
Cleo will pay 100 cold cash for an RoP - we do that, and she's polite.
India gives us 12 gpt (!) for an RoP. They had one, for FREE - so this was
a renegotiation. Same for Aztecs, renegotiated for Naviagation. Didn't trust
Japan with an RoP. Bizmarck takes an RoP for ally vs Iroquois, and this makes
the silly warmonger happy Lincoln gives his treasury of 50 and 12 gpt
for the dyes. For silks he'll thrown in 11 gpt more. Ok, cool, he's NOT our
next target For Japan, just a territory map swap.

830 AD (1) - Hmmm, how did those Egyptians get all the way over here?
Their Knights, about a half-dozen, run through our land and seem to
be headed somewhere. We 'seal off' Hellespont and nip THAT in the bud!

The rampaging Romans have wiped out the Iroquois! Lol!! How's that for
timing Biz?! The Germans start Magellans.

Rome plunks down a settler *right* next to ours. Gah! Is he trying to seal
his fate or what?!

Eep!! Our Bull Army takes a drubbing at New Shanghai by a Russian Spear.
We win, taking the city, but down to 1hp (for several hits). Lose an elite
knight vs a Russian Knight, then see a vet promoted, fair trade.

840 AD (2) - The Egyptians do a big about-face with Hellespont gate closed

The Russian city of New Beijing is run over by our Northwest Bull Army!
Three knights take out Shantung. We're now grossly in need of settlers AND
defenders for these cities.

850 AD (3) - Yangchow falls to Bull Army and Knight. Nice Iron location, will
have to resettle near here. We found Gravimetric Plains between London
and the new Roman town.

Well, that's enough for now, I didn't want to jump in to fight the war,
but to assess and see what to do with cities. I'll stop now and throw
the game back...

UP for GRABS
Charis

 

[Sirian]

Resisters???

 

[Charis]

Nod, Culturus Minimos was quite surprised to find these fellows. Quite a scandal in that region. "Sting This", the city is question, needs to be dealt with, and firmly. If Russia has the slightest gas left, they could take it unprotected for a quick raze.

I started the process and looked at the situation, suggesting that "Sting This" and Xinjian just have to go. If you want to continue that cleansing process, have at it!
(After the Arathorn got for capturing, I doubt we'll have anyone doing that again this game)

The ex-China continent is almost cleared of Russians, and we have the 'beef' up there to finish the job. Outside our Forbidden city, two Russian cities are about to come under assault. If I were continuing, I would finish the Russians in ex-China, and raze those two cities. Their kind of close to Moscow, and are 'past' our nicely defensible choke point, so I wouldn't even bother to rebuild there -- then I would make peace. More aggressive folks might pluck the day and whip Russia off the map, *NOW*. Our next leader or two will have that decision to make.

The nation of Crete is at a crossroads... where do we go from here?!


Charis

 

[meldor]

Give them the PROD :shotgun:
No resisting the Minoan culture.....

 

[Sirian]

Disbanding is not an option, it transfers the STINK of their whipping unhappiness onto OUR nearest city. NOT ACCEPTABLE. Once that chain is started, it never ends, that STINK cannot be expunged!

Give those vile centers of alien corruption away to OUR BEST FRIENDS whom we don't plan to attack for the longest time, so that we may avoid those tainted, foul lands for as long as possible (and be punished for dishonoring the Minoan Gods by befouling our lands with such taint). IE, we lose control over those lands for a long, long time. I'd even suggest that only our glorious bull armies can brave the stench to raze those demonic infestations, and only after 1000 years have passed!!!

(If such a capture is made after 1040AD, we would LOSE THE GAME, as we'd run out of time waiting for 1000 years to pass, after such an incident).

Someone else will have to take the reigns to correct these grave matters. The stink of foreign nationals in "our" cities makes my head swoon and I can't go anywhere near them! Foul Odors smells like a garden paradise by comparison!


- Sirian


PS: I'm personally in "leery" mode in regard to new procedures about forum attachments. I understand the need for them to reign us in, as the volume of SG zips is overwhelming them, but... until a new and workable procedure is finalized and proves out, and players get used to it, a lot is left up in the air.

 

[Charis]

Disbanding is not an option, it transfers the STINK of their whipping unhappiness onto OUR nearest city. NOT ACCEPTABLE. Once that chain is started, it never ends, that STINK cannot be expunged!

Uh... is this a Minoan tale about the atrocity of such an event or... do you mean that in the Civ 3 game this unhappiness actually does go to the nearest city??? This would be news to me (I'm used to being in the dark sometimes, it wouldn't surprise me)

Is it a 1.17 "fix" to get around some folks exploitation of the whipping loophole where you can whip, whip, whip, add a worker and whip some more then when you're done, just disband?

If so (or as a good alternative anyway), the giveaway works for me. Preferably to a low culture civ

BTW... who *IS* our best friend?!
Let's see... not China, Russia, Japan, America, Iroquois.
Germany? Biz will NEVER be my best friend!
Egypt? India? One of these two I imagine.
Where is France when you need her??

K, I just had it and Sirian's nose can't abide it at present... we need a CATTLE PROD!! Step up to the plate folks

Charis

PS bbbzzzzzzzzttttttttttt - prods Meldor

 

[meldor]

I am up in one more SG but if no one has taken it by the time I get through with that one I will happily take the prod......


[EDIT] I would like to see a clarification of the issue about disbanding the city. Does it go to the nearest city or is this a self imposed penalty. I will happily give the cities away to someone else if that is what needs to done. Maybe Japan? Then we can kick them back out of our lands when our penance is completed.

 

[Sirian]

Uh... is this a Minoan tale about the atrocity of such an event or... do you mean that in the Civ 3 game this unhappiness actually does go to the nearest city??? This would be news to me (I'm used to being in the dark sometimes, it wouldn't surprise me)

Is it a 1.17 "fix" to get around some folks exploitation of the whipping loophole where you can whip, whip, whip, add a worker and whip some more then when you're done, just disband?

Game Mechanics.

I just learned this one THE HARD WAY myself in my solo deity game, about 48 hrs ago. One of my shining cities on the border has been permanently sacked with ten units of whipping memory thanks to capturing then disbanding a border city. I might even have considered going back and replaying, on the basis of a misunderstanding of the rules, but too much time passed before I figured why one of my cities had been all but ruined, and it was less painful to live with it than replay a large chunk of game.

I did conduct an experiment after that to verify, and yep, any bad memories from a city you disband transfer to the NEAREST friendly city. This is... surely a response to the whip-then-disband phenomenon of early exploitation, but of course as with many laws, it really only penalizes law-abiding citizens anyway, as the exploiters (criminals) can just give the city away, then attack and raze it (and earn low-cost "buttkickin points" toward squeezing concessions out of the civ in question when they make peace, then turn around and attack again immediately), while those of us who are trying to figure out how to get out from under YET ANOTHER "side effect" from an attempt to close a loophole (in this case, the neverending whip/draft memory of AI cities invariably abused into the dust, because the penalty durations have been lengthened beyond reason) are stuck with the problems.

The ONLY viable way to play this game now, from a conquest standpoint, is endless scorched earth. Raze everything, because post-nationalism, not ONE AI city anywhere will be worth keeping. You can't even try to be "peaceful" about it, with bleeding off workers then disbanding the city, because the penalties just transfer to your own cities, which is worse.

They really NEED to implement civ-specific unhappiness penalties. Taking over AI cities ought not to come with their whipping memories. That's just... useless, not to mention unrealistic.

In the mean time, my deity game is stuck with one crippled city. At least I have two dozen others, but I'm still going to miss that one, which now has to run gobs of entertainers and is starving.


NO DISBANDING here. That is not an option. Give away, then raze later -- after 1000 years, when the dishonor of not having razed in the first place finally dissipates.


- Sirian


PS: Charis, there are some issues needing your attention back at RBD.