RBD14 SG - Environmentalist Wackos!

[Sirian]

IT 950BC: We're still fighting over Canton I see! Veto! VETO VETO VETO! Must have irrigation there, and since once again all the workers in the area have been scattered to other jobs, got to train a new one!

Everything else looks good.

925BC: Map brokerage nets ~30g.

900BC: Our southernmost warrior pops a hut, gets attacked, LOSES. Doh. Forbidden Valley will have to go on alert now.

Oh, and by the way, we complete the Pyramids.

875BC: Russia completes Oracle. (Knew that was coming!)

Um... going to laze out on the dates here. Summary:

Beijing finished Pyramids, then a settler (only one who could pump out out to go grab that ivory in the south, and I deemed that somewhat of an urgent priority considering Joanie reached way way out to grab the big fur cluster.

Shanghai finished a settler, is working on another. It's settler went north.

Canton and Luscious trained workers. Canton whipped its temple on my last turn and is finally getting some irrigation.

Nanking trained a settler. I MEANT to whip its temple, but got distracted, forgot, then refused to waste the shields. Needs to whip the temple next though.

Rest of our cities: building toward temples, to be whipped.

All our cities need temples.

We perhaps should be building the Great Library in Beijing. Might be a mistake not to be! But... lacking a temple, and no one yet with Literature, I really wanted that temple first. However, will leave that up to you, I'm OK with a veto to head right for another wonder.

I continued the road south across the desert.

We got a SECOND army, from the other hut stolen from under Egyptian noses.

I only took 8 turns, even it up and pay off my overtime.

Joanie just started Colossus in a size 1 city, but... our Colossus cities are just as sad. Not sure what to do there.

Everybody but Biz has Currency now, shaving our research time way down. Due in soon.


Our settlers are all on GOTO.


I'll say that again. Our settlers are all on GOTO. The one in the south is going to that dot I marked just beyond the ivory. The one in the west is going to that rich dot where the warrior is sitting and will arrive next turn.

Settler north of the jungle is on GOTO to the white dot on new dotmap. IF you don't like that idea, you must activate him (to cancel orders) before you click next turn. The spot he's on was my original intended site and is a good site on fresh water. I had second thoughts that it would crimp Cleo's expansion more so to jump past that spot and go grab that river location at white dot. Sort of like playing a game of Go. (Ever played it?). Reaching out to grab more territory, on the theory that if the opponent commits to trying to undermine our control of that area, it will cost them so much we can make even more gains elsewhere, or else they will simple fail and we retain control. Either way... a bold plan, but up to you to follow through or not. Either is OK.

Now that we have Pyramids, we need to spread out ASAP and also whip temples ASAP.

Oh one more thing: in the south at Forbidden, that lumberjack is due to finish in two turns. If you get a chance on that turn to click forward to the city and whip its temple, after the trees are cut down but before the city's turn comes up in the rotation, would save a whole turn down there.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

750 BC (0) - Odd... that army is still way over to the west?! Oh! That's
another army? Wow! Heavy hitters for lovers of the environment!
Pyramids are ours!?

France is expanding pretty aggressively. I hope they're "green"
I would say we need a big city settling 'burst'. Ah lots of cities on
temples. That's another way to 'expand' borders. Will look to hurry when
each gets down to 39. One settler already heading South? Good.
(Wait... rereads Sirians post... he's heading WHERE??! Ivory in Far East?)

I'm really torn about both the Northern and the Southern settlers. They
both go against "consolidate and get settled in our own lands and get
hopping on FP and its hub". In the absence of a firm way to go, I turn to...

What would be the 'green' thing to do??

In the North, we would stretch out for a river spot, with iron, in the midst
of many mountains. His present location is on a pond, and can basically
influence a huge jungle area. Can we let this prime verdant jungle fall into
the hands of the Egyptians? Nay. In some way, the jungle marks the
end of 'our' land, the mountains mark the end of 'their' land, and all the
grass in between is neutral, home to the cattle and bison (or so sees the
Green Charis Nader) (Hmmm, Germany and Russia are top two civs, and they're
both far away and adjacent. Delightful! Let them slug it out instead of
bothering us for a change. We're next to the 'slow' heap instead.

In the South, you have plains and rocks to the East. Saving the ivory is
the issue there, but not much green. Also on the eastern area, fish and other
aquatic life that need our protection.An alternate location south of him would
be on a river, with wheat. Or, west of that, river and two wheat. Further
west, river, game, wheat, horses. Down deep south there are game, precious
furs and native tunda wildlife. Ugh... still tough call. If either one had
dominant food power, would pick that and crank settlers to handle ALL the
other spots. That still does seem our greatest need in the south, a settler
farm. (Your plan is interesting, would be interesting to see it too)

Here is the Nader plan. (Nadir plan if you don't like it )
** Verdant China is seen as having nn regions
- "Core" = Beijing and first ring (four existing and two more in hexagon)
- "Great Wall of West China" - the three border cities with Egypt
- "Tibet" = our SW region between the two rivers. Nanking is the regional cap.
- "Southern Tundra" - from the Forbidden Valley south
- "Yellow Sea" - Eastern coast including fish, ivory, mountain river
- "Manchuria" - the lush jungle (and silks) to the NE.
X "Mongolia" - the Mountains due North, not strictly part of China

(There's actually a decent resemblance between our civ empire shape and
China although I'm not pushing it, just noting it)

With the needs of the enviroment SO great, each region must be productive!
There should be no leeching for colonies, draining, or overstretching.
"Sir, that sounds like... a republic." The People's Republic of China!
In or for *each* region we must IMMEDIATELY get a "settler" city which
has the duty of supplying settlers for the foundation of cities. The cities
themselves must supply their own workers and enviromental rangers (aka warriors)
Some settler farms may even have to forego their own temple, defender, or
any improvements for some time.

Action items:
1) Seal off the border with Egypt. Found where we are now. The Great Wall
region will focus on homeland defense vs Egypt and Rome, and will get a
barracks and crank spears for the rest of the nation.
2) Western settler plan approved, the new city xxxx to serve as the settler
farm for Tibet.
3) Eastern settler plan is approved with reservation, the ivory defenders
win the day. It is expected to lead the way in marketplace and financial
development, and provide a settler to seed populating Yellow Sea.
4) Forbidden Palace will crank one settler then get on to the palace. That
settler will pick the best food spot it can and become the Tundra
settler farm.
5) Manchuria is not only a national treasure, but one to the verdant
Earth. Low on food but high in beauty, this region may need more support
at first than the others, and more workers to care for it (later on).
We will get a settler all up North asap to the grassland spot next to spice,
set up fishing spots and work backwards.
6) Core cities will focus on infrastructure. After literally centuries of
arguments and debate, Canton is freed to pursue more 'wondrous' ventures!
(Actually, the verdant Hanging Gardens have a great appeal. But we may
go for infrastructure here first. Colossus is nice, but not a key one
for us here. Lyons is 1, as we we, but has great production potential)
7) Temples everywhere!! We must pray for this plan, and hurry.
8) With no one else with Lit or on a big wonder, we keep to temple then GL plan.
9) With not one but TWO Armies, let none come against us! One will surely be
filled with riders, due not TOO long from now. We'll get some swords ready
just in case we need one filled. An environmental epic would be glorious.

The settler stops in his tracks and we begin...

730 BC (1) - Great Wall Oasis is founded. Not much action needed on the Nader
plan just yet. All we have to do is prepare speeches to give to rouse the
workers to complete the temples, over the next several years.

Intraturn coming up. Nothing 'due' next round. To save the turn at the FP,
would need to force something, anything, to finish next turn. We look things
over and come up with... Shift off temple at border? Not good, I want them
sealed. Ah... Harbor at Nanking can be whipped, it has just under 40 to go.
That gets him food earlier, us a trade route, and saves FP a turn.

710 BC (2) - Romans and Germans start the Great Wall. We pull off the mid-
turn lumberjack turnip coup

Massive Barbarian uprising near... Forbidden valley!

Well that answers what to build next. Rax!

Lhasa, the capital of Tibet, is founded.

Shoot, Currency is 1 gp. France got it. We buy for one. They have construction
while we have literature. No deal til we are ahead on GL. Ugh, looking around
they ALL got it this last turn, every last civ. That's a lot of lost beakers...
Target Monarchy at 10%. The Hanging Gardens sound so nice. But hmm, they're
usually a 'backup wonder' tech. With the entire Ancient Era done though, why
not go for a middle age wonder? For that matter, with Education so much, this
is likely one game to punt on GL. We can trade for construction to enter
middle. How much? I dial up Caesar. 90 gold and 7gpt? We can swing that!
Rome is low man on totem pole, so money there is better than elsewhere, and
if Egypt jumps us, they're toast with Rome on our side.

Green China enters the Middle Ages first!!

Everyone must be researching Literature. There seems a chance to sell to
the whole world. Top 5 cities shows we're top, with Babylon the only other
one over size 5. It's gotta be in darker ages. So even starting at same
time, we can probably beat other cities to the wonder of our choice.
Which wonder would that be? Would it not be the glorious Sistine Chapel?
We are not a military race, although some call us militaristic.

We consult the ancient annals and find this nugget written in 1300 BC...
> Probably much better to kick it off with SunTzu, though, which should be
> our TOP priority and then use the GA it causes to nab Sistine and Leo, too!
> More dreaming.

Here's the thing. We have one wonder city. Period. At least until we're past
the early middle age wonders if not longer. With folks in Great Wall bldg,
and likely every civ who hasn't to start, I see a very very fast cascade that
will see the Leo-Sun-Sistine gobbled up in no time. Or could we beat it...
After Temple done next turn, Beijing with 13/turn shields can get Great Wall
in 15-16 turns, or Great Library in 31. Sheesh, we can't even use GL as
placeholder! (Can't research in less than 40!) Still, so FEW ancient wonders
are built or even under construction... Conclusion: start on Feudalism and
go for SunTzu (Sistine still seems more useful to me, but then... this is
emperor), getting a prebuild after Beijing does a little infrastructure.
I'll look to see when civs are close to getting literature then sell it
worldwide. The Nader plan hereby spurns the Great Library route.

So how close ARE they? World Map plus how much is offered by each civ?
Rome 50, Germany 16, Russia 50, Egypt 17, France 1. Ouch, without the worldmap,
Joan? Less than 10 gold?? Glad I checked, it's time! Another worker from Rome

Hi Cathy... uh.. Cathy??? You have monotheism?? Is that new in 1.17 ??
They can move ahead to next era without finishing old one? She doesn't have
literature. Hmm, wait, they didn't have this. Do they get new era tech when
*anyone* gets to middle age? (boo) Germany has mono too.

Total gold: 143 gold - no one would offer any gpt (??! is that bad, it
can't be our rep) Bigger amounts at miser, smaller ones or with mean looking
people at diplo.

Splendid! An Egyptian craftsman wants to come over to China to help us
on environmental projects. He's a little slow, but free upkeep! We donate
about 25 pieces of gold to his family.

690 BC (3) - (Just turn 3?) Russia and France start Great Library. It should
be done about same time we research Education

670 BC (4) - Our vet spear climbs a mountain to better defend and see. NINE
bar HORSE ride up next to him.

Luscious Banks starts a settler for Manchuria (!) Shanghai's is finished
and heads for Tibet. It starts another, thinking Yellow Sea. At some point
FP will need one for the Tundra.


650 BC (5) - AI is getting better?! Rather than take on the fortified spear
on the mountain the barbs ride around, toward the city. We step back
inside, and must call back the worker. Should we dump some cash in case?
Embassies? No, our previous leader took care of those... Darn it, why
won't the AI take 100 gold and give 5 gpt, or even 4?? I can see the other
way around. No deals possible whatsoever. What if I lower science slider
from 10 to zero? Ah, that works. 140 gold and 15 gpt.

Ivory Yellow is founded, defender of the glorious tusked Asian Elephant!

630 BC (6) - Oh my, we were pillaged, and how!! Spear, warrior, worker,
tortured and slain. They pillaged our irrigated cattle (!) and carried off
our entire national treasury of ... 2 gold. Not only that, they slew some
citizens in the town, size 2 down to size 1. :grrrr: Not much we could do,
no help close enough. A swordsmen is on the way, but too late. At least
we salvaged something for the finances. Forbidden Valley, too proud to give
up, starts walls...

Xinjian whips its temple. We get the "Forbidden Palace" notice (12 cities)

Our economy is officially shot.

610 BC (7) - The last three bar horsemen (of this wave anyway) trapse
through the ghost town that is the valley.

Tsingtao whips its temple. We adjust Beijing to not waste shields, and
finish its Library in two turns.

570 BC (9) - Russians start Great Wall.

Nanking finally gets to whip its temple. Hmm, after the earlier harbor,
it's going to be RATHER unhappy for about 10-11 more turns, then a little
unhappy.

Beijing starts a wonder. At current rate we'll finish researching Feudalism
just before we complete the GL placeholder and can snag Sun Tzu. If you
need a settler or other improvement first, feel free.

550 BC (10) - Romans and Germans start Great Library.

Chengdu is founded in Tibet, with cattle, wheat, game AND whale in radius.
Warrior or worker first sounds good. (I picked warrior, but let me save
you the trouble of swapping )

I don't think there's anything in progress that can't be changed, nor anything
that is awful. Ivory Yellow sees a barb camp nearby and is on walls, likewise
the forbidden valley. It needs irrigation BIG time, and there are workers on
the way, roading as they go. The vally now has our best units, two swords, to
deal with the ROOT of the problem.

- You'll need to MM Nanking to get worker and city growth out same time.
- Lhasa is bummed - Catch-22, needs temple to expand, but food is so low pre-
expansion it won't grow for another 13, too late to whip. Should have seen
this earlier and lumberjacked
- Need to get garrison to Shanghai (for MP!), likewise Nanking. There is
one now next to Nanking, back from the west along with the army.
- Border of Xinjian and Tsing should expand, closing the Great Wall.
- North Manchuria scout just ran into Egyptian warrior. (Get a settler to
silks asap! Workers are trying to get a road up there) Canton settler is
the next one due, then Shanghai, Xin, Luscious (as it stands now)
- The entire world is still in Despotism! Actually, in checking, Germany
and Russia are in anarchy, and they've researched Republic. (We could use a
dose of non-Despotism ourselves) No one else had new tech. Cleo is missing
Monotheism but is poor.

Wasn't a stellar turn, based on outcome anyway. I think with temples behind us,
the Pyramids pushing us, next two turns should be much smoother settling
rounds.

Good luck, this should be an interesting turn, and one of rebuilding...
Charis

 

[Arathorn]

Charis,

Literature, like Republic and Monarchy, is not required to get out of the ancient age. It's an optional tech, so Russia/Germany pass out of the ancient age into the middle age even without those.

Similarly, in LOTR 1, Germany got Nationalism for free when it finished its last required Middle Ages tech (Theory of Gravity?) even though no one had researched Printing Press, Democracy, Free Artistry, or Military Tradition.

Arathorn

 

[Sirian]

When I read that the gem town was stuck at size 2... my jaw hit the floor. It never would have occurred to me that you'd go on a mad road building spree through the jungle! I mean, yeah, it made sense to hurry the roads to get a gem online, but after that?

Now I find a generally well done turn and not much to fuss about, but these jungle roads are definite in the original "banging my head on the desk" grand tradition of irrigating the desert.


I look over the inherited turn. What is he smoking? Planning to build a road up to the silks? Forget it. Rush a harbor up there and ship the stuff home.

I think some roads in that direction aren't a bad idea, but I'm going to stop short of that vast jungle, for fear of coming back and finding the whole thing covered with roads but not one tile cleared.

Seriously, why the roads? What is your thought process with that?

Here's mine:

* Takes 24 turns for one slave to clear a jungle (for an industrious civ). That's only SIX turns for a full blown worker pair to clear. Takes THREE turns for a worker pair to build a road in the jungle, vs ONE on the grass after clearing. So... Eight turns for each jungle tile per worker pair: one to move in, six to clear, one for road. VS four turns just for the road (still leaving six more later, to clear, too).

* Especially in a city surrounding by all jungles... um, clearing should be a top priority, right? So the city can grow?

* A growing city can build and pay for more workers anyway, erasing even more of the "false deficit" of taking the extra time to clear and clear immediately.

* Less jungle, less risk of disease! (Imagine our capital if hit with a couple bouts of disease right about now).

* I'm not infected with Charis Syndrome (bend everything to furthering the colonies and neglecting the core).


I handed off a worker pair I had JUST moved onto the jungle gem, certain you would clear, road, and mine (or irrigate), and repeat. I come back... to roads and more roads, nothing cleared, and the pair off slackin out in the middle of nowhere building roads to... nowhere.

Was there some grand plan of yours I am not catching on to here, or is this what it appears to be? A cloud of smoke rising from your general direction?


I didn't say anything last time, because I couldn't really argue against doing the penny-wise move with rushing the roads to the gems, even though I would have cleared first. ALL the jungle roads on your last turn look like weedage from here, though. Also was an oopsie to move the worker into the town in the south, should have run him north. The barbs seem to prefer sacking a city to any other targets in range. (It does NOT help to move military units out, IF you are trying to bait, they will just go around them, as poor smegged learned to the ruination of our starting army unit in RBD18. I managed to salvage things in RBD13 by moving everyone out of the town -- RUN FOR YOUR LIVES -- rather than INto it to get slaughtered. The barbs got a total of 2 gold and 3 shields of production on a project lost -- and a good time with the women we left behind to distract them).


OK, other than that, everything here is looking good.

* Giving up on Great Library is perfect, I concur.

* SunTzu would be a top priority? Yes, good plan.

* Get started on more settlements in the south? Absolutely. Not only to get them started earlier, but also to stop those barb camps from springing up all over, and exploding like that, again. (We got a little spoiled in RBD3 with barbs disabled -- made the Chicago move there much easier, actually).

* Didn't veto my Ivory plan!

* Nice recovery after the rough episode in the south.

* Glorious, etc.


IT 550BC: I wanted to vetovetoveto all those weedy worker orders, but found that it would only be wasteful in most cases. I did veto one jungle road though, near luscious, and start them on clearing. (Yes, I can see your priority on getting a road up to the lake, but it will still happen, just a LITTLE slower and with clearing some jungle along the way so that darn town can grow past size 3). Road to the silks is vetoed (build a harbor). However, the idea of sending a settler to the silks ASAP is upheld and I plan to send the settler from Canton (the first available). He should arrive (barring a mugging in the wilds) early on your next turn.

I also vetoed the 40 turn science deal. Well, actually, not quite veto, but I vetoed the entertainers and such, and cranked lux up to 30% for two turns to get Shanghai on settler and have it grow faster.

I'm not quite sure how we went from tech leader to being in the hole and owing more gpt than we can shake a stick at. Well, OK, maybe yes I do: Emperor 1.17f -- bah. That's all good, actually, but does present one problem: we CANNOT switch governments while broke and under oppressive gpt deficits. We're stuck in Despotism, and could be there forever if you keep renewing the gpt deals for more and more tech (as they will keep expiring on your watch). We'll see how it plays out.


Early turns: AI's left and right start Hanging Gardens. Some start other projects, too. I fear the cascade is going to harm us, but at least we got the Pyramids! That alone should keep us healthy. Anything else we get is gravy.

Middle turns: produced several settlers. One will arrive in the south from Shanghai on my turn, but the rest will be handed off to you on your watch. Also trained a bunch of regular units. We are desperate for military police, for defenders, for bodies to warm the seats. Frankly, I regret not having a barracks town this whole time, but Canton was not it, and certainly not before they got in some irrigations.

* WWW'ed courthouse in our far west town. Folks there are now mightily unhappy, but so it goes.

* Intended to whip harbor at Canton, but decided that would be pure weedage. That city is right next to our capital, and more than anything else it needs to GROW. With growth will come more food, more shields, more trade, and the ability then to do something useful for us. I decided the harbor must be built the slow way, get that fish up to 3 food, and will be needed to bring the silks home anyway. Then the city can crank troops, workers, or settlers, but keep it from being shrunk back to size 1 please!

* Our first jungle tiles cleared!

* More barb action in the south, one sword promoted to vet, goes looking for the camp.

* Wall finished at Forbidden. I whipped a sword to get thirty shields, then swapped to courthouse with 30 shields in the bank. Not my ideal WWW, but we must have a courthouse down there to build the FP without a leader on hand. You should be able to whip the other half before the end of your turn.

Late turns: Settled a city in the south on the river next to those plains wheat. Another settler moving in that direction, I urge heading for the lone fur down there. I should draw a dotmap, but you can figure it out. Plan cities based on the three we have down there already, and on maxing potential. That area will be our second core, so I Urge You to Think Long Term.

Settler moving to silks safely hooks up with elite warrior.

350BC, Final Turn: CONTACT! Somebody contacted the last two civs. I paid for contact with them, then swapped world map to one for Monarchy and Republic, then swapped Map to the other for their world map.


* I lost some turns off the 40 turn science deal. Might be a mistake, but I doubt it. We cannot afford to sit in despotism for that long. Frankly, I would have revolted on the spot (and gone to Republic... we're not planning offensive wars any time soon, I don't think. Still way too much of our own land not secured) except that I COULD NOT do so under the burdens of our debt.

* If that debt expires early enough, I say we should revolt, finish the great wall and use our golden age to secure not only SunTzu, but also probably others, maybe even Sistine, plus hurry our FP once that courthouse is online and our government changed. This could be a gambit... someone else might finish Great Wall first, or grab SunTzu away from us. However, if we DID get the great wall, ALL our city defenses would be doubled and our strength vs barbs doubled or more. (It's not just walls, that's a bad description, it's all city defenses, through the middle ages. Not too shabby).

* Our happiness situation is also rather stark. I considered whether or not we should build the Gardens. However, we should have four lux in our territory, and all online within 20 turns, so that is probably not a must-get. Still, at the moment, our situation is PAINFUL. This ain't Monarch!

* Even if you don't like the Great Wall/Earlier GA idea (or you do, and it doesn't pan), I think we're better off in Republic ASAP. Our unit count is light (too light) so even that is not a worry.

* We need more workers, and unless SunTzu is secure, we also need some more barracks. Most of our units are not veteran.

* Please no more roads on jungle tiles! Clear em first! That's what we got that industrious ability for.


I leave the rest for you to ponder, as most of our kingdom could go in any of several directions. Pick a good one.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

The emissaries from the desk of Charis send this present...

The gift of ASPIRIN to soothe the pounding in the head of the new chief Sirisan!

The roads? Several reasons: to pull in more gems to share with other nations (The problem there is they've not got roads connected to trade, thought that would come sooner) and also, yes I was planning to road straight up to Silks, because I would like to see Manchuria founded and under our control, so a road network is a good thing. Zirconia is not STUCK at size 2, he's paused at size two, so I hope the blows to the head were not TOO severe

Why didn't I clear first? I couldn't bring myself to cut down the verdent jungle!!! Ok, not really. I *think* we're allowed to do that, but there was a seed of doubt. It's more a priority - I wanted to see us get a road up to the silks to settle there faster before Egypt came over and plopped down there. Was thinking land grab, not jungle town growth. Uh, hmm... no there MUST be a better reason for these clearly poor moves - I know, so much mental effort trying to understand and not veto the ivory move I got confused and needed to find a way to give your head pain (it worked!!) But ok yes... good points, and I'll give my own head a smack for short-term thinking and over-loving the jungle

(What am I missing that you saw the Ivory move as the best, given all the other settling we needed to do? An extra lux yes, but, anything else?)

I think I like the Great Wall idea, more for its ability to slingshot our FP and SunTzu. I've never heard Great Wall giving more than its description- double walls (zero benefit for size 7+) -- if true it's better than I thought, but if the description is right it would be (imho) junky.

Republic sounds good too. EDIT-- was wondering if anarchy delay would make us lose it, then remembered we must pay off debt first. If we get wall and set off GA, start the GA with a few rounds of anarchy or ride it out in despotism? There's only a half-dozen turns to complete it, but iirc earlier someone else got an early start on it.

Thanks,
Charis

 

[Sirian]

An extra lux yes, but, anything else?

Does there need to be anything else?

On inherited turn, turn the lux slider down to zero temporarily and have a peek, then do the same on first turn after ivory comes online. With the current (overblown?) whip penalty, the whippings we've done are going to sting a while at some locations. I DO worry that three whips on the FP site will become problematic, but didn't see us having the cash to rush the courthouse either, so I figure we must whip it.

As for "anything else", it's the mouth of the main river in the region, a choke point into our territory from the east (did you SEE how far Joanie reached out to grab those furs??), and perhaps most urgently, should be located just about right to nix all barb camps that might pop up in that entire region. If not, it will come close! (After your, uh, "encounter" with barbs in the south, this last reason ought to ring some bells). That enough reasons? I can invent some more if those aren't enough.


Good luck!!! This round could be pivotal.


- Sirian

 

[Charis]

(Been too long, I've been wanting to get around to this game for ages!)

350 BC (0) - Quite the catch-22 here. We want the Great Wall but we don't.
It will set off our GA, and we're in despotism with several other key
needs now. If we try to switch govt first, a long anarchy (or even a short
one might well cost us the wonder). Given our recent barbarian strikes and
low defenses all around, tis nicer than usual. And heck, we're China!
In any case, can't revolt til debt is over anyway, so let's do da wall.

When last we reigned the focus was on the Nader plan, establishing six
provinces in China, and encouraging them to provide for their own needs
as much as possible. There was of course the minor scandal in Manchura,
building roads in thickets instead of working the land properly. Charis Nader
was at first sad to have to disturb the jungle, but his scientific and
environmental advisors assured him it was the best thing for the flora
and fauna. He vowed that any non-inhabitted land would not see the scythe.
(Reminds self... finish the courthouse whip at FP)

330 BC (1) - Babs start the Gardens. Got a settler or two, where to... ?
Lone fur. Thing long term. Maximize potential. Got it!

With game now two, tundra-forest-game are food 3. There is some prime
river-hill-game area east of FP that seems nice. We still need horses,
and the plains-river spot on horses, next to cattle, looks great.

310 BC (2) - Newchwang is founded (This was a silk export city in Manchuria )

290 BC (3) - Egypt founds Mendes, impinging on Tsingtao. Time for another rax.
Rome will take a straight Gems for Silk trade, which sounds good.
Cleo is polite, but is stronger than us, and "starting to get that look
in her eye". Maybe just paranoid, next turn is dead quiet.

250 BC (5) - Golden Age begins and we move to form new government. (I know,
not ideal, but too many folks going at Great Wall too long to switch first)
4 turns, excellent.

Workers in Manchuria run smack-dab into a new bar camp 8-\

210 BC (7) - They chase our workers

France has AGAIN founded right at us, Stasbourg, just west of Dijon,
and a scant two squares from where our settler is about to arrive and
was planning to settle. I can found defensively where I stand, on a hill
across the river, or step up two squares from him, to have the neck
chopped off. Where he's at is such a great spot actually, let's found
right here and capture Strasbourg at some point It's right at an
odd intersection of three rivers. We name it "Water Torture"

190 BC (8) - Egypt declares war!! ... on the Romans (phew!)
Got scared a second there. Perfect - I was hoping those two might tussle.
Let Egypt bite on some Legionary muscle. Although, if Egypt is TOO strong,
we would hate to see them steamroller Rome. French are building Sistine.

170 BC (9) - Germans start Sistine, Russians Colossus.

Time for a new government! I don't plan on extended war, and so give
the thumbs up to Republic The economy looks MUCH better, and
production is excellent due to GA. I can see we're ahead by being in Republic
even with the 4 lost-GA turns, compared to Despotism. If we stop leaving
cities undefended and don't lose any, this will have worked well. If France
or German or Russia go after us, we're so thin it would be ugly.

I set Beijin to max food, to grow one more quick, THEN snag the iron shield
tile. Canton hits ten shields and needs to get cranking! Either units
or Colossus in 18 turns. Feudalism due in 20 turns at 0% with +74 surplus
or 11 to 15 at even rate, we're at one scientist for now, 0%.

150 BC (10) - Nice... quiet... France has gone away with its warriors.
Spearmen coming out, and a whole PIPELINE of settlers on the Beijing-FP road!
Lots of tough settling choices for ya!

Up North, the two worker did an end-around and the warrior intercepted.
He hopes to take out the camp then get back to MP duty up North.
The workers can do a reverse direction clear and road.

Nanking just finished a non-vet spear and says to itself, "I can crank out
the Colossus in 17 myself!" Encourage this mayor or rebuke him!
(For example, it might be more prudent to do a courthouse)

Forbidden valley has 35 shields left to courthouse, and a memory of two
whippings already. It will finish soon enough (and can't whip now anyway),
so time to heal old wounds. It will get a good jump on Forbidden Palace
with the remaining GA turns after it's done. Rearrange workers or lumberjack
to adjust the courthouse finish time.

There are several moves left to make, mostly settlers. None are on goto,
although the one spot I definitely had in mind is three steps Sw and one
step south of Hangchow. It's a river tile with horse, cattle and game
in range. Get them horsies online asap!

Didn't check diplo last half, so you might look. If GL finishes, we can
switch to Hanging or buy Theology for placeholders. The goal here is
SunTzu, not the GL itself.

Good luck, should be a fun 'age' for China next... (And after that... riders!)
Charis

 

[Sirian]

IT 150BC: The Canton Struggle continues. Charis orders up military and I always seem to have other plans for that city. In this case, settlers. But first, to skim one worker, so that improvements can be done at the capital. It's almost out of fully improved primary tiles. I also vetoed the settlers out of Shanghai, it's time that city takes its place as a major center of Chinese production: marketplace ordered. Settlers ordered in all northernish towns, except the one out in the grass to the west, which needs an aqueduct.

I also question the wisdom of running a single scientist. I have not YET ONCE seen it pay off for anything at all, in any game, since the new patch. The new AI "Screw You" Factor seems to also include more coordination between AI's researching parallel paths now instead of duplicating efforts, leading to this currently absurd pace of tech research. This game is almost on Deity pace for research, it's incredible. Where in 1.16 I finally found a use for the Great Library, in 1.17 I'm back to thinking that it's wholly useless, except perhaps for a situation like RBD7 where you are isolated for the long term. Fact is, the concept of "two civs who have the tech" is now patently absurd. ALL the civs get every tech the moment it's available, unless for some reason some of them are so flat broke they can't even afford the ultra-deflated late-civ prices. The whole tech race now is unisex: it's the same in every game, practically speaking.

However, the lone scientist in this case is 19 turns in to a 40 turn research job, and in the city that's running it, it can't put that citizen to work, so it's either taxman or scientist, and I let the scientist keep going for now.

Finally, I rushed the courthouse in Forbidden. (That shoulda been done instantly, or asap, after arriving in Republic.)

We are in the early half of our Golden Age. Time to make some hay.

I click next turn and our elite warrior loses 3 of 5 hps to a barb horsie.

130BC: I take time to figure out a decent plan for the south. Some factors just would not lend to ideal combinations, so some compromises had to be made. I chose, and ordered settlers hither and thither. (Charis left me with four in the area).

FP due in 20+ turns, most of them Golden Age turns, so that estimate is pretty decent.

I find that I need to shift every city in the south over to workers, so I do that. Anything else, for the moment, is a waste.

Our damaged warriors are facing another barb horse and the camp warriors. I don't like it. I'm feeling bad about our odds on defense. If we lose three more hps next round, we'll lose the unit. If we're going to lose the unit, might as well know it NOW and be able to take action, so I attack. The barb warrior is selected as the target since he is fortified. Our warrior wins! And this also means the barb horse will go on defense, and our forces will live another round. (Did I mention this is the only military unit we have within 500 miles of this location? With two major no-mans lands right on our doorstep in both directions, we have spread ourselves more thin in this game than I have seen in any game ever).

I buy Theology for 110 gold, diplo price.

110BC: We are threatened by Cleo. I cave, as she only wanted pennies and a territory map, and it would cost us much to stop and fight at this point.

Lighthouse finished by Joanie/

Entertainment tax raised to 30%, scientist fired to put those people to work on our Colossus project.

90BC: Now Cathy wants in on the bullying. I cave again, again for pennies. Our settlers in the south start to settle. Our settlers up north start to be produced. Cascade includes SunTzu in Germany, so they have Feudalism.

70BC: I buy Feudalism for 60 gold, diplo.

50BC: I buy Engineering for 120 gold, diplo. Colossus finished by Babs. I switch Nanking over to cathedral, since it doesn't look good for a wonder there long term. No courthouse in place, front line city, etc etc. Just not viable to have it sit around going for 600 shields, IMO.

30BC: Cleo again threatens us, this time she wants FREE GEMS. I am NOT pleased. She threatened us BETWEEN TURNS when the road was completed, before I even had the chance to offer to sell them to her. What's more, she said one of the most cocky things I have seen the AI say. As such, I will most happily celebrate when we grind her into the dust. Yes, I caved. She had a warrior next to one of our towns in the south, and we CANNOT spend our golden age fighting off a war while we are still trying to spread out.

Above Canton, I founded Anyang, and there's a barb right next to the new town now, and a camp two tiles away. Going to be some rapings happening to our women there, nothing I can do about it in the short term. I upgraded a warrior in Canton to swordsmen and plan to send them north to help out next turn.

To dump some of our cash, I established embassies with the two western civs and rushed a temple at Oasis.

10BC: Rome completes Hanging Gardens! WOW! That's before we could have done it if we were trying! Was this a cascade hit? I don't think so. I would bet they too are in a golden age, kicked off by their war with Cleo. I was seriously thinking about nabbing the Gardens to make sure we get SOMETHING out of our GA, since in our capital, we could be screwed out of the cascade if it goes badly. Turns out that wasn't an option, so we better pray that we are first or second, getting either SunTzu or Sistine.

We lose 8 gold at Anyang. Another barb moves into position, this one horsie. Anyang going to get the business again next turn.

10AD: I'm working on some military. Admittedly, only in ONE town, but hey, it's something. Walls and a pike finished in our western most border town, on point vs Cleo, and I'm upgrading spears in that area to pike now.

We lose more gold at Anyang, but still pennies.

30AD: More settling taking place for us. Yes, Charis, including in Manchuria.

50AD: Our fur town in the south has a barb horse next to it. I fear another explosion down there, if they are already pumping out horsies. At least we now have buffer for the FP town, which is humming along. If nothing else, this early GA HAS sped up our settling pace, allowing us to grab more cities, has landed a market in Shanghai, a cathedral coming in Nanking (runner up item for the Colossus we wanted there), what should be a third great wonder in Beijing, and most urgently, the very early FP and a strong second-hub-to-be now taking shape.

Poor Canton was slowly slowly losing population over the course of my turn and took a big nasty hit on the last turn. I recommend now getting it an aqueduct next, with what's left of the GA. Shanghai is now our largest city and needs more mines, including mining that cattle now. We got bullied four or five times on my watch, and this despite me doing all kinds of diplomatic niceties. The AI's KNOW how weak and thin we are, but we need to wait for SunTzu and the FP to come in before we go on a massive pike and horsie building spree. (Horses still not online, but there are workers in the area, as I built several more and have more yet in the works, down south).

It's a been awhile with this game, so REMEMBER not to renew the silks deal with Rome, we're about to get our own online in just four turns, when the harbor comes due. I left the workers up there unmoved, for you to figure out what you want them to do: chop forests, mine, jungle clearing, roads, or whatever.

As a final deal, I bought Education for 120 gold. So much for the Great Library aka Great Anacronism. It's not even built yet, and every civ on the planet has education.


DOTMAPS:

The north dotmap has been reworked. Green dot with the two whales could not be passed up, and I wanted Anyang online quickly. I'm worried about Germany/Russia sailing over and stealing our lands in Manchuria so I made filling them out a TOP priority during my turn. Settled three sites and have two settlers en route to grab more.

White, Green, Orange dots are high priority, purple is middle priority, blue is a pipe dream, reds are fishing villages of no priority whatsoever. The settler in the north is on goto to white dot, due to arrive in two turns. The settler in the swamp was intended for Green dot. No idea if we are in a race for that spot or not, you could grab purple instead, or if you are really feeling bold, reach out for orange. I was meaning to grab the green though.

Now for the South:

No plans east of ivory city would survive contact with French shenanigans so I didn't bother.

Orange dot is the top priority, the only major site I didn't have time to grab.

White, green, red, light blue, and purple are all half-city sites in dry areas. Most games these would be strong cities, but with no rails, they are going to be smallish, low yield cities for us, requiring max irrigation and generally limited to size 8 or 9.

Light Blue is where the settler is standing and I'd have founded it but ran out of time on my turn.

Green has overlap with Beijing. If we steal two tiles it can grow to size 9, if we don't it's limited to size 6. Which would be best, I have not figured out as yet.

Black dot is a strong fishing village. Yellow dots are low yield towns, grab as convenient.


Forget the lone scientist. Just accept that we'll buy techs on the cheap before we could possibly research them on our own, and focus on temples and markets in general -- and growth and military of course. Libraries and universities are low priority, mainly interesting for the cultural benefit. We don't want to be pathetically weak on culture for flip headaches, but libraries in THIS patch are rather useless for the early game.

The tech tree flies by so quickly now, that our limitations on not being able to use tanks and motorized stuff may ultimately turn out to be more problematic than the lack of rails. I foresee a time when we'll have to use airports just to move units across our OWN lands. Heh.


50AD Save File


- Sirian

 

[Arathorn]

It's the farmer gambit gone berserk! Boy, I thought I ran with low military presence for a long time early in the game. I swear I've never seen so many undefended/barely defended cities. Map size has something to do with that, but... WOW! No wonder you're getting bullied at every turn.

OTOH, your land grab has been awesome and when (I could say "if" but I know better) you get it consolidated, you'll be hyper-scary -- no fossil fuels or not.

The first war could be interesting, though....

Arathorn

P.S. Sirian, how do you form such great dot maps? I always feel I end up with highly suboptimal placements, but I rarely if ever find a suggestion to change your dot maps. Is there a secret? Or is it just a big time commitment? (Feel free to email/PM if you think it OT enough)

 

[Sirian]

Arathorn, short answer: I'm a Virgo.


Long answer: Everybody has talents. Everybody (regardless of their talents) is smart (knowledgable/informed/intelligent) about some things, and not so about others. I know math, writing, English, computers, and would not shy from bold descriptions of my intelligence or ability in general, however I am barely competent with simple automobile maintenance, and definitely Not Smart about actual car repairs. Yeah, I can change spark plugs or brake pads, but that latter is about my limit on what I could do without a lot of help, and that's a Simple Job.

Intelligence is about paying attention to details. I'm not all that interested in cars in general -- enough to function, but that's it, and even then I falter in some areas. It's not that I could not learn to be a great auto mechanic if I applied myself, but being smart is about more than talent, it's also about motivation, desire, interest, and drive.

There's no great mystery to my dot maps. I am weighing the variables and reaching conclusions. In auto mechanic terms, dotmaps are a Simple Brake Pad Replacement. If you know what you are doing and have the tools on hand ready to go, the whole thing can be done in a few minutes with minimal effort. If you aren't practiced in the work, it could take longer, and if you aren't motivated to do it or smart about the details (knowing what the job takes) then it's a bigger affair. And if you look at it and think that it's Too Much Work to bother dealing with that, then of course you aren't going to apply yourself to it.


Food is the main concern. A city without food is DOA. If the lands are food-poor, you have to bend everything to maxing the food.

Fresh Water, ironically, is probably the second most urgent concern in my mind, even for late game cities, as everything far from the capital takes forever to build an aqueduct, or else you have to rush it, which saps your whole civ's economy a bit. There are times when other factors outweigh fresh water, but they are few.

Overlap is a major concern. It is to be minimized, but past a certain point is not worth disrupting other priorities.

Not wasting land (tiles left unused by any cities) is another high priority. This is the opposite of overlap, and the two are generally pulling at one another. You have to have some of the one to avoid too much of the other, and vice versa.

Shields are a concern in SOME cities, like those with lots of flood plains or water tiles.

Balancing cities is a concern that often overrides almost all the others, in that you don't want a city to be stuck at small, useless sizes if some compromises on other points could rearrange things so that each city can grow strong.

Priority is given to cities in rings. Cities right around the capital or Known FP Location are top priority and get all the best attention. Second ring gets some attention but gives way to the first. All else is lower priority and makes compromises as needed.

Resources, choke points, defensive positions, enemy cities, distance from capital/fp, access to the coast, and where possible, not building directly ON the most productive tiles (wasting them) are all variables.

Now considering that these lands are all wide open, there are endless possible dotmaps. So I just start weighing, and what I usually do is plan one city at a time. I find a GOOD location for a strong city and make that the center of the design, then add from there. Each addition gives concessions as needed to fit with the previous dots while minimizing overlap and waste. Occasionally, I find that this leads down a dead end as some leftover area gets the shaft, and I go back to start all over with different ideas. I HAVE spent over an hour planning a dotmap, but that's ONLY when the land is so filled with conflicting possibilities that tons of compromises have to be weighed, and I find that my original thoughts can be bettered with different priorities. The south dotmap here in RBD14 was such a case, I spent over 30 minutes planning it, before I settled four of the cities you already see in place on the dotmap, as there were some ugly compromises to be made no matter how it was sliced. Pre-existing cities in less-than-ideal locations is another factor, and we had some of those here. (Fog of war can lead to this even with good city planning, as you make choices based on incomplete info).

On the other hand, most dotmaps are fairly easy to plan and I can do it in seconds in some cases. It's all a matter of checking variables, putting forth one dot and then fitting more onto it like a jigsaw puzzle. At the end, all the pieces should fit. If they don't, I will try to rework the whole thing, IF I think some nasty compromises could be avoidable. If they clearly are not, then some cities are just going to suck and I can decide that, too, rather quickly. It's when there are lots of possibilities and NONE of them stand out as Clearly the Best Plan, that it gets thick and I may pore over it for a little while.

To me, this kind of thinking/plotting/planning is fun stuff. I have paid attention to it, do it well, and am thus "smart" about it. But anyone else who paid as much attention to the details could do it just as well as me, and some could do it better. It's not magic, it's just a thought process.

The key, I think, is not trying to decide the whole map at once, but to pick the best looking available land for your Next City and give it all it needs, then add another good city to what's left, and keep on going. When you get down to narrow lands or spot areas where you will either have lots of waste or overlap (or both) or the fresh water would force you to do odd things to the rest of the priorities, that's when it gets complex and you have to start balancing.

The whole reason for doing the dotmap plan in the first place is to look beyond the Next City to the ones after that, to try to make sure they will all be productive, or at least as much as they can be. That is... sometimes by compromising a very small bit on a top priority city, reducing its potential by only a fraction, which won't even come into play until after hospitals, you may be able to double or triple the value of other cities, or even get Whole Extra Cities out of the lands. So the question of making good plans comes down to ability to look ahead and ability to quickly tally the variables so that you can see what the outcome would be on this dot vs that dot vs that other dot over there. The goal is the most total value in city potential for your civ.


- Sirian

 

[Sirian]

One more note: your neighbors have a good bit to do with how thin you can manage to go. Joanie is the least aggressive neighbor in the game. If a max aggressor like Shaka or Monty was over there, more attention would have to be paid to defense more quickly, and I certainly would not go without a barracks town cranking defenders.

- Sirian

 

[meldor]

Is this game dead?

 

[smegged]

With Charis gone, yes.