RBE DSG4 - Beyond Deity
- Thread starter Sirian
- Start date
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
Arathorn: I'm aware of the fact that buying into techs @2nd costs more than researching them yourself. I guess I should have phrased it as "researching techs is folly, but buying them @2nd prices is even more folly". 
What I meant is that we can't get better than a 40-turn rate even at 100% science, so doing "research" by turning up the science slider makes no sense. I should have been more clear.
I had no idea that border was there; to be honest I can't even see it right now! But I'm sure you guys have better eyes than I do for spotting those kind of things. If there's a civ there, it's not even a question: we buy Map Making ASAP and whip out a galley to find them before old Alex does! Even if they are also isolated, we can get a ton of stuff brokering contact to Alex. And since 3rd civ prices are so much cheaper than 2nd civ ones... it's well worth it. Keep in mind that right now it takes ALL of our gpt + our only silks to get Map Making from Alex. And if we trade away our silks, we will have to raise the luxury tax, which will require we end our 10% science rate. That's not a huge problem since we can make a scientist somewhere, but I just wanted to point it out.
And as to why we're working that forest in Mephis... it's a silks forest and pulls 3 gold. If you move that tile to a bonus grassland, we don't have enough gpt to purchase Map Making from Alex. So maybe it wasn't
after all! 
JMB - go make contact for us! 
What I meant is that we can't get better than a 40-turn rate even at 100% science, so doing "research" by turning up the science slider makes no sense. I should have been more clear. I had no idea that border was there; to be honest I can't even see it right now! But I'm sure you guys have better eyes than I do for spotting those kind of things. If there's a civ there, it's not even a question: we buy Map Making ASAP and whip out a galley to find them before old Alex does! Even if they are also isolated, we can get a ton of stuff brokering contact to Alex. And since 3rd civ prices are so much cheaper than 2nd civ ones... it's well worth it. Keep in mind that right now it takes ALL of our gpt + our only silks to get Map Making from Alex. And if we trade away our silks, we will have to raise the luxury tax, which will require we end our 10% science rate. That's not a huge problem since we can make a scientist somewhere, but I just wanted to point it out.
And as to why we're working that forest in Mephis... it's a silks forest and pulls 3 gold. If you move that tile to a bonus grassland, we don't have enough gpt to purchase Map Making from Alex. So maybe it wasn't
after all! JMB - go make contact for us! 1250 bc - With Memphis producing 6 spt, it'll only take another 4 turns to produce a galley (it doesn't seem worth it to whip the galley...). I decide to wait a couple of turns before purchasing Map Making.
1225 bc - Begin temple in Giza.
1200 bc - Nothing much.
1175 bc - Damn. Greece has connected their silks. I decide to pillage the road that they built in our territory (on the trees 2 E of Elephantine). I hope that isn't against RB Epic rules... Map Making from the Greeks for our WM, Silks, 16 gpt, and 412 gp. Switch Memphis to Galley.
1150 bc - Alex wants to exchange his WM for ours and 2 gp. I agree.
1125 bc - The Greeks begin the Great Wall.
1100 bc - I see what looks like a sea lane outside of Byblos. I decide to chance it and on the first move, we see another purple border!!
1075 bc - We meet the Indians. Mathematics, contact with the Greeks, and our WM to India for contact with China, their WM, Bronze Working, Warrior Code, the Wheel, and Mysticism. Code of Laws from China for contact with the Greeks, WM, 5 gpt, and 62 gp. WM, and Code of Laws to the Greeks for their WM, Iron Working, and 113 gp. Begin barracks in Memphis. The Indians begin the Great Lighthouse. I didn't bother even trying because I seriously doubt that we would have had a chance as it is already being constructed by the Greeks as well.
1050 bc - Not much. I bring our galley back to our side because I think that there is another island to the NE of Byblos.
1025 bc - Not much.
1000 bc - I guess what I thought might have been land was not... Trade around WMs, and that's all she wrote...
JMB
1225 bc - Begin temple in Giza.
1200 bc - Nothing much.
1175 bc - Damn. Greece has connected their silks. I decide to pillage the road that they built in our territory (on the trees 2 E of Elephantine). I hope that isn't against RB Epic rules... Map Making from the Greeks for our WM, Silks, 16 gpt, and 412 gp. Switch Memphis to Galley.
1150 bc - Alex wants to exchange his WM for ours and 2 gp. I agree.
1125 bc - The Greeks begin the Great Wall.
1100 bc - I see what looks like a sea lane outside of Byblos. I decide to chance it and on the first move, we see another purple border!!
1075 bc - We meet the Indians. Mathematics, contact with the Greeks, and our WM to India for contact with China, their WM, Bronze Working, Warrior Code, the Wheel, and Mysticism. Code of Laws from China for contact with the Greeks, WM, 5 gpt, and 62 gp. WM, and Code of Laws to the Greeks for their WM, Iron Working, and 113 gp. Begin barracks in Memphis. The Indians begin the Great Lighthouse. I didn't bother even trying because I seriously doubt that we would have had a chance as it is already being constructed by the Greeks as well.
1050 bc - Not much. I bring our galley back to our side because I think that there is another island to the NE of Byblos.
1025 bc - Not much.
1000 bc - I guess what I thought might have been land was not... Trade around WMs, and that's all she wrote...
JMB
Hi all,
I very much liked this thread and the previous RBEs. for a change I decided to take my shot at this game using the first save.
I'm not going to give you details but I want to commend Uru' for an excellent early start. I'll remember to research Mathermatics myself as that is what helped you A LOT in the negotiations with the Indians and Chinese.
You were also lucky to have Greece neglect the northern part of the map at the beginning. By the time I got my first settler they have already built a city close to your Elephantine and shortly afterwards built Pharsalos close to where you have it.
No more comments from me, oh only one, I also noticed that border in the exact same place, congrats again Uru'.
Please consider the AI 50% bonus before starting a war.
I very much liked this thread and the previous RBEs. for a change I decided to take my shot at this game using the first save.
I'm not going to give you details but I want to commend Uru' for an excellent early start. I'll remember to research Mathermatics myself as that is what helped you A LOT in the negotiations with the Indians and Chinese.
You were also lucky to have Greece neglect the northern part of the map at the beginning. By the time I got my first settler they have already built a city close to your Elephantine and shortly afterwards built Pharsalos close to where you have it.
No more comments from me, oh only one, I also noticed that border in the exact same place, congrats again Uru'.
Please consider the AI 50% bonus before starting a war.
Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
Yndy, you should looking forward to reading the Epic 17 reports on monday. I'm sure there will be lots of trading and researching hints.
Consider this my got it.
Consider this my got it.
Well, so much for that plan. Alex decided not to cooperate with our cultural push and looks like he made temples a priority, so our hopes for a high cultural advantage have been dashed. 
We have a temple going in Pi-Ramesses, which doesn't seem right unless we were planning to whip it, as it's stuck at size 2 and needs some workers to clear jungle. How many spt is it pulling in?
Does Giza really need a temple right away? A granary -> FP might be better. We can build temples in the surrounding cities to fill in culture.
Alex decided not to cooperate with our cultural push and looks like he made temples a priority, so our hopes for a high cultural advantage have been dashed. We have a temple going in Pi-Ramesses, which doesn't seem right unless we were planning to whip it, as it's stuck at size 2 and needs some workers to clear jungle. How many spt is it pulling in?
Does Giza really need a temple right away? A granary -> FP might be better. We can build temples in the surrounding cities to fill in culture.
T-hawk
Transcend
Pi-Ramesses needs the temple to pull in the two fish squares. That'll ramp up its growth curve faster than clearing jungle to start. It's only pulling in one shield now, and that will be true until it gets at least two mined grasslands and maybe until we get out of despotism. So in the meantime, may as well ramp up the population and get that temple going. No need to whip it.
Giza should definitely, IMO, do granary first, then maybe a temple (the city will grow pretty quickly and may need the happiness), then the FP.
Giza should definitely, IMO, do granary first, then maybe a temple (the city will grow pretty quickly and may need the happiness), then the FP.
We may need a courthouse at Giza as well. Have to see how badly corrupted it is first.
I suppose Pi-Ramesses just grew to 2 recently if it has no good food tiles. We probably ought to have whipped immediately in that instance even if we only get 10 shields. Growth curve for whipping now versus not: well we are not growing at all now so that's 8 turns 'till the temple is built and another 5 turns waiting for border expansion of no food. Right now we have no food in the box (I assume) and are size 2. If we whip we will have no food in the box but will be growing again, 6 turns of 1 food waiting for the temple to be rushed and expand borders (that's including the current turn) and then 7 turns at 2 food will bring us back up to size 2. Plus we get the border expansion for possible dyes hookup and extra culture that much faster. I'd say rushing the temple is better, we wind up with the same food at the end (pop 2, no food in box) but have the temple sooner.
I suppose Pi-Ramesses just grew to 2 recently if it has no good food tiles. We probably ought to have whipped immediately in that instance even if we only get 10 shields. Growth curve for whipping now versus not: well we are not growing at all now so that's 8 turns 'till the temple is built and another 5 turns waiting for border expansion of no food. Right now we have no food in the box (I assume) and are size 2. If we whip we will have no food in the box but will be growing again, 6 turns of 1 food waiting for the temple to be rushed and expand borders (that's including the current turn) and then 7 turns at 2 food will bring us back up to size 2. Plus we get the border expansion for possible dyes hookup and extra culture that much faster. I'd say rushing the temple is better, we wind up with the same food at the end (pop 2, no food in box) but have the temple sooner.
T-hawk
Transcend
Courthouse before FP is only worthwhile if you're going to rush it (but it may be worthwhile to whip it using the cheap below-7 population and the granary). It's our 7th-closest city, which on a standard map isn't over 50% corruption out of despotism (that's the 8th city), and so the courthouse won't recover more than 3 shields tops. If the FP takes less than 80/3=27 turns to build (which should be the case), the FP comes online sooner without building a courthouse first than with. (The courthouse does provide marginal extra commerce in the interim.)
My point about not whipping the temple at Pi is that then we can save the whip for something else, like adding 20 shields towards a granary, without having two whip effects in place at the city. Getting the dyes within our borders early isn't going to matter, since we won't have the worker labor there for a while. But it's pretty much a tossup; Urug's call of course. (BTW, I'm glad to see Greece didn't settle a city with the dyes in its 2nd-ring; I was worried about that.)
My point about not whipping the temple at Pi is that then we can save the whip for something else, like adding 20 shields towards a granary, without having two whip effects in place at the city. Getting the dyes within our borders early isn't going to matter, since we won't have the worker labor there for a while. But it's pretty much a tossup; Urug's call of course. (BTW, I'm glad to see Greece didn't settle a city with the dyes in its 2nd-ring; I was worried about that.)
Whipping a spearman and swapping to granary could be done after the temple completes if we wait, but if we whip now we will still have an extra 8 shields available from not waiting for the temple to complete and will be able to whip a second time without extra penalty sooner; i.e. whip now, wait 20, whip from 20 shields to barracks, and swap to granary. By then we should be about ready to buy into Republic anyway. We might choose to build something else there next anyway, since a granary there doesn't really help that much until we clear some of the jungle around there as there's only a couple usable food tiles even with a temple. Thebes might be able to fix that by being a worker factory, however. In any case, as you say, it's Urug's call.
I think the temple in Giza is more important (right now) than the granary. Also, I am not quite sure why we should build a granary in Giza (right now)... Currently, it can work 2 cattle tiles and will grow quite quickly as is. As we don't have access to a large number of luxuries, it would seem to me that increasing the population even quicker would be asking for problems (I am not quite sure how many citizens would be placated by raising our lux tax at this distance). Because of these factors and the fact that Giza has no potable water (and can't grow past size 6 without an aqueduct) I don't really understand the desire to build a granary in the near future...
WRT building a courthouse before the FP, because of our excess food situation, I think we might be able to complete the FP sooner if we grow to size 6 and then use entertainers to maintain WLTK days (to reduce the corruption rates)... What do you guys think?
WRT building a courthouse before the FP, because of our excess food situation, I think we might be able to complete the FP sooner if we grow to size 6 and then use entertainers to maintain WLTK days (to reduce the corruption rates)... What do you guys think?
I'm pretty confident we could combat happiness problems with sufficient lux tax, though building the temple after the granary would certainly help. We also get MP while in Despotism, so until we go to Republic, so we really only need 1 or 2 happy faces from lux tax after we get another spice hooked up for our use and the temple built. We should be able to get roads built up there fairly quickly for the required commerce to run the lux tax since we have a few workers in the area and Thebes can pump out more quickly.
Generally we want to grow as fast as possible to get people in the fields producing more shields, get more workers going, etc. and lux tax is a good way to keep them happy. As for WLTKD, it doesn't seem likely to me that that would provide enough benefit to be worth having the people not working the fields, but it's certainly easy enough in the game to try out once we hit size 6, and with irrigated cows we should be able to run with enough food to allow it.
Generally we want to grow as fast as possible to get people in the fields producing more shields, get more workers going, etc. and lux tax is a good way to keep them happy. As for WLTKD, it doesn't seem likely to me that that would provide enough benefit to be worth having the people not working the fields, but it's certainly easy enough in the game to try out once we hit size 6, and with irrigated cows we should be able to run with enough food to allow it.
T-hawk
Transcend
Actually, you have a good point, JMB. I totally forgot the city wasn't on fresh water - it's rare for me to have such an FP site, but you're right. Consider that Giza is size 2 now, and will reach at least 4 before the granary completes. The granary then does not speed the growth to 5; it's only the growth to 6 that comes sooner, and that by about four turns. So, yes, skipping the granary gets the FP sooner.
As for happiness... we need 5 total happiness factors in Giza at size 6. Our own silks (that Zed keeps calling spices - put them on your meat and see how they taste) and two MP is three... you can't count on a city that far away without a river to have more than one happy face from lux tax (best guess: 8 commerce from six road tiles and the city square; 4 or 5 after corruption; would require 30% or 40% lux tax for 2 happy faces.) So yeah, a temple should be built before the FP.
WLTKD won't happen. We need at least five CONTENT faces, and we can only muster three: the temple and MPs. The city would require two specialists (not necessarily entertainers: we just'd need to make the unhappy citizens into any specialists) to get WLKTD, which won't be worth it.
Oh, one other thing: Get Heliopolis set to zero surplus food, if possible. If it can still finish the granary in 4 turns, it comes out ahead on food by finishing the granary before growth. (And Elephantine needs the same MMing.) And is that iron 2 squares south of Helio? Might want to stick another city in the jungle to lock that down...
As for happiness... we need 5 total happiness factors in Giza at size 6. Our own silks (that Zed keeps calling spices - put them on your meat and see how they taste) and two MP is three... you can't count on a city that far away without a river to have more than one happy face from lux tax (best guess: 8 commerce from six road tiles and the city square; 4 or 5 after corruption; would require 30% or 40% lux tax for 2 happy faces.) So yeah, a temple should be built before the FP.
WLTKD won't happen. We need at least five CONTENT faces, and we can only muster three: the temple and MPs. The city would require two specialists (not necessarily entertainers: we just'd need to make the unhappy citizens into any specialists) to get WLKTD, which won't be worth it.
Oh, one other thing: Get Heliopolis set to zero surplus food, if possible. If it can still finish the granary in 4 turns, it comes out ahead on food by finishing the granary before growth. (And Elephantine needs the same MMing.) And is that iron 2 squares south of Helio? Might want to stick another city in the jungle to lock that down...
I didn't say a temple shouldn't be built before the FP, I did think a granary would be a good idea though. However, analysis always beats gut feel and general rules, temple->FP for Giza it is.
Hmm, spices, nummy... what? These are silks? Whatever, they taste good to me. Comes from being raised by spiders, I suppose...
Hmm, spices, nummy... what? These are silks? Whatever, they taste good to me.
Comes from being raised by spiders, I suppose...Urugharakh
Orc Chieftain
After no access to the forum for more than 24 hours I can finally post my play from yesterday. Nothing interesting happend during my last 10 turns. We start training some military and Giza started on FP. Thats basically all.
(0) 1000 BC: Checking our empire: delay granary in Elephantine by 1 turn so it grows the turn after granary completes. Don't do the same in Heliopolis, because it will grow next turn. Growth delay will delay the granary by one turn and will give only 4 additional food. Whip temple in Pi-Ramesses to gain expansion faster. Byblos needs a harbor, not a temple.
(1) 975 BC: Abydos founded. Byblos whips barracks and switches to harbor.
(2) 950 BC: Mao has horseback riding. Giza whips temple.
(3) 925 BC: Giza starts on FP. Nottingham completes Lighthouse.
(4) 900 BC: zzzzzz
(5) 875 BC: Alex has currency. Athens finished Great Wall.
(6) 850 BC: zzzzzz
(7) 825 BC: Mao sold horseback riding to Alex and Gandhi and got currency in return. Hire a scientist in Alexandria to prevent disorder. Set research to 0.
(8) 800 BC: Alex has philosophy.
(9) 775 BC: zzzzzz
(10) 750 BC: zzzzzz
Heliopolis is on barracks , which will complete next turn. The worker north of it will clear the forest in 3 turns. Make sure you use the 10 shields.
I started clearing some jungle near Heliopolis. The city needs a few more tiles and its on the way towards Pi-Ramesses and our dyes.
Thebes is currently on a spear-worker cycle, which is not optimal. We should consider letting it grow once we feel, we have enough workers (despite the fact that you can't have enough workers until all tiles are completely improved), though in this case it will face happieness problems soon.
Here is our current empire:
and here the save: BC750
(0) 1000 BC: Checking our empire: delay granary in Elephantine by 1 turn so it grows the turn after granary completes. Don't do the same in Heliopolis, because it will grow next turn. Growth delay will delay the granary by one turn and will give only 4 additional food. Whip temple in Pi-Ramesses to gain expansion faster. Byblos needs a harbor, not a temple.
(1) 975 BC: Abydos founded. Byblos whips barracks and switches to harbor.
(2) 950 BC: Mao has horseback riding. Giza whips temple.
(3) 925 BC: Giza starts on FP. Nottingham completes Lighthouse.
(4) 900 BC: zzzzzz
(5) 875 BC: Alex has currency. Athens finished Great Wall.
(6) 850 BC: zzzzzz
(7) 825 BC: Mao sold horseback riding to Alex and Gandhi and got currency in return. Hire a scientist in Alexandria to prevent disorder. Set research to 0.
(8) 800 BC: Alex has philosophy.
(9) 775 BC: zzzzzz
(10) 750 BC: zzzzzz
Heliopolis is on barracks , which will complete next turn. The worker north of it will clear the forest in 3 turns. Make sure you use the 10 shields.
I started clearing some jungle near Heliopolis. The city needs a few more tiles and its on the way towards Pi-Ramesses and our dyes.
Thebes is currently on a spear-worker cycle, which is not optimal. We should consider letting it grow once we feel, we have enough workers (despite the fact that you can't have enough workers until all tiles are completely improved), though in this case it will face happieness problems soon.
Here is our current empire:
and here the save: BC750
T-hawk
Transcend
Producing workers from Thebes at size 7 is very very much non-optimal. The city can produce a worker every other turn staying right at size 6; let's let it do that for a while longer now that Heliopolis and Memphis can supply military. With that pile of jungle, we probably want about 20-25 workers total.
We can put in one more Eskimo village east of Abydos, since Abydos can't ever use more than two tundra tiles. Also, I still think we should put one more city in the jungle to claim the iron, since a Greek city will eventually get ahead of Helio. NE of the iron seems to be the safest spot (and no that's not a cultural push as long as the iron is unclaimed.) E or SE of the iron is also possible, but that (more) risks overlap and flip from Ephesus. Still, it's a low flip chance, given that our national culture isn't terrible and the proximity of our capital.
Our Map Making payments run out on Zed's turn; hopefully he can swing some brokerage deal on Philosophy and get us towards Republic.
We can put in one more Eskimo village east of Abydos, since Abydos can't ever use more than two tundra tiles. Also, I still think we should put one more city in the jungle to claim the iron, since a Greek city will eventually get ahead of Helio. NE of the iron seems to be the safest spot (and no that's not a cultural push as long as the iron is unclaimed.) E or SE of the iron is also possible, but that (more) risks overlap and flip from Ephesus. Still, it's a low flip chance, given that our national culture isn't terrible and the proximity of our capital.
Our Map Making payments run out on Zed's turn; hopefully he can swing some brokerage deal on Philosophy and get us towards Republic.
Hey, guys,
I am quite busy this week and am leaving on Thurs for a week and a bit after that. I will have access to a computer but don't know whether I will have access to Civ3 (I'll try to find out.) Hopefully I will be able to keep contributing during this time but I might need to ask for a few switches in the schedule until I get back. If that bothers anyone, let me know and we can just skip me for a bit.
I can't play this evening, so I'd like to switch with whoever's next (T-hawk?) for this round.
I am quite busy this week and am leaving on Thurs for a week and a bit after that. I will have access to a computer but don't know whether I will have access to Civ3 (I'll try to find out.) Hopefully I will be able to keep contributing during this time but I might need to ask for a few switches in the schedule until I get back. If that bothers anyone, let me know and we can just skip me for a bit.
I can't play this evening, so I'd like to switch with whoever's next (T-hawk?) for this round.
T-hawk
Transcend
I don't think I'll be able to play tonight either, actually. I'll claim it late Tuesday night (like 11:00 EST) if you haven't by then.
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