RBE DSG4 - Beyond Deity

[T-hawk]

Measuring our progress as 4 out of 13 cities isn't quite accurate - the AIs defend their core cities more stiffly. Expect no fewer than six musketmen in Athens and probably about eight. I don't think we can eliminate Greece off our continent with no more than our present quantity of knights, and we don't want to postpone too much infrastructure too long lest we wind up like RBE2: building hospitals while our rivals are building the UN.

Grabbing tech off Alex for peace is absolutely worthwhile. Techs are supremely expensive for us at this cost factor, and we need to get them any way we can. We can minimize flip risk by starving and garrisoning, and even if a city or two does flip back it hurts us much less than getting tech helps us.

Buying Gunpowder fron Joanie probably isn't a bad idea - we want to get up to Chemistry somehow so we can see brokerage opportunities on the techs beyond. And we can probably run a couple knights through to his saltpeter, which will make our further conquesting easier.

Sparta: raze it. Copernicus is worthless unless we're researching ourselves, and when are we ever going to do that? Not more than a tech or two until the spaceship is wrapping up. Besides, reclaiming those wasted tiles will reclaim us most of Copernicus's benefit anyway.

Did we get Dyes anywhere else yet? If not, Pi-Ramesses should be a high priority.

 

[Zed-F]

T-hawk, relative to most of Alex's cities, the ones we have been taking ARE core cities. Sure, some of Alex's cities might be more defended than what we've been seeing, particularily Athens, but some of them will have significantly less. Even if we lose 20 more knights taking the northern half of Alex's empire, the remainder plus whatever reinforcements we make should be more than sufficient to mop up the dregs in the south. I don't anticipate us being at war for very long so I'm not overly concerned about missing out on infrastructure in the meantime; once our blitz is spent and we're out of gas we will probably want to talk peace even if Alex has a couple cities left.

Two votes for leaving Alex his island paradise so far, so that's probably what we will do. Garrisons for flip protection are a given, of course, but probably we won't be able to afford too much of that while we're on the warpath, so we should probably pacify the resisters and starve/build workers, and then not keep a very heavy garrison so we don't lose too much if a flip does occur, and we should probably expect to have to recapture at least once or twice. On the up-side, as well as tech for peace, we can also potentially bully him (and India) later for more tech if we haven't picked it up already by then. Tech may be expensive for us but once we consolidate Alex's lands I don't think that will be a particularily big problem for us, as we'll have well in excess of the population/territory bsae we did in RBE2.

We get dyes at Mycenae and Sparta, among other places. Pi-Ramesses is in the south and a low-production town, I would rather concentrate on taking out Alex's production base first rather than his southern towns (except to potentially pillage a road to saltpeter.)

Here's another thought, supposing we get a leader, and we conquer our mainland as expected, do we want to relocate the Palace further south with him?

 

[Sullla]

Assuming the war goes as planned and we reduce Alex to some OCC action on an island, I'd be in favor of signing peace for techs (more than worth it considering their very high cost) and then 20 turns later finishing him off to eliminate the flip risk. We would be fairly safe holding his cities for just 20 turns (though I agree that the Greek nationals would have to be starved out or turned into workers for safety's sake). But there would be no logical reason for keeping Alex around after we had gotten techs from him and reduced him to one city. It's not like we'd want to keep him around for a UN vote! Get what we want from him and finish the job 20 turns after signing peace.

 

[JMB]

510 continued... The taking of Sparta... First knight dies, second retreats, third dies. Fourth defeats a musketman. Fifth and sixth kill cavalrymen. Seventh and eightth kill musketmen and the last promotes. We raze Sparta. We lose a spearman to a cavalryman. A knight in Thermoplyae defeats another cavalryman. Renegotiate incense deal with England. Silks and 3 gpt for Incense (I thought about using the extra dyes we captured from Greece, but decided against in case one of their cities flips on us...). Renegotiate Ivory trade with Russia. We have to give silks and 16 gpt to secure them.

520 - Heiraconapolis builds marketplace, begins granary. The resistance in Mycenea ends and we rush a temple. Decide to trade Gandhi Engineering and 1 gp for Printing Press. A brokering opportunity presents itself... Neither Germany nor France have Democracy. We could purchase it from either England or China and then broker it for Gunpowder and Economics. To France, Gunpowder is worth about 1000 gp and economics about 800. If I buy Democracy from England (~2200 gp total and our extra dyes), I should be able to get three techs for approximately 400 gp. Dyes, WM and 109 gpt to England for Democracy. Democracy to Joan for Economics, Gunpowder, 8 gpt, 19 gp, and her WM. Furs and Chemistry from the Germans for Democracy, our last dyes, our wm and 6 gpt. The greek saltpeter is way down on the peninsula and of course, we have none. Giza is building a bank, but could also be used as a prebuild for Newton's. England declares war on the Germans.

530 - not much.

540 - Resistance in Herakleia ends and we rush a temple. We kill a GL spawned from a defending cavalry. India and greece sign a trade embargo against us. The greeks must have gotten nationalism this turn and therefore, we can expect riflemen... The Greeks unload a horseman and a knight around Abdyos. Due to my poor planning, we only have a couple of warriors up there... Also, the Greeks are still putting out 2-3 cavalry each turn...

550 - I decide to gamble... We had a bunch of swordsmen and knights right outside of Athens this turn (I wanted to attack there before the other cities because it has the great wall) and I decided to attack. Unfortunately, we didn't get a GL, but we did capture Athens and are now in control of the Sistine chapel and the GW (although, now that I think about it, the GW is already obsolete... Or then again, maybe it wasn't and my attacking before getting Metallurgy was major weed.)

I have one knight heading up towards where the Greeks landed their horseman and knight. Several knights are heading towards Athens area to help take a few more cities (or quell resistance).

Here is the file: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/RBEDSG4-550AD.zip

JMB

BTW, for those in the US, have a nice Thanksgiving weekend!

 

[Zed-F]

I took a quick look at the save, we have 35 knights left but now are facing rifles in Delphi. Not so good, we really need Cavs to take them on effectively. Possibly we should think about taking a bit of a break from the war after capturing Delphi and Corinth? Up to Urug I suppose.

Assuming it works like the Great Library, the GW should have gone obsolete for the Greeks when they got Metallurgy, but will oddly enough now work for us until WE get Metallurgy. If so it will make defending our holdings easier until almost the point where we will be ready to go on the attack again.

We should be starving down all the Greek cities we've captured, and building workers out of them to reduce flip odds. Thermo still has 10 pop and is not shrinking quickly enough, and Athens and Mycenae are not shrinking at all!

 

[T-hawk]

Wow, nice. Great brokering on Democracy! We will want to take the turn to revolt sometime after the war and before railbuilding.

The Great Wall did expire for Greece since they have Metallurgy. But it really doesn't matter, since only cities below size 7 even can have walls, and the AIs even on Deity rarely build them.

(The Great Wall actually unexpired for us when we captured it, since we don't have Metallurgy. That is of course very silly, if you think about it. Greece has Metallurgy but is stopped by the Wall, while we don't but we can ignore the Wall. )

Greece having Nationalism is a drag, of course. But it will take them a few turns to build some rifles - they definitely don't have the cash to upgrade anything (question: does the AI cost factor discount apply to upgrades?) - and they, strangely, seem to be building more cavalry than rifles. Still, it only takes one conscript rifle to hold off a horde of knights, since it will promote repeatedly.

Newton's - I'd say don't bother. But we may want to start thinking about starting a Palace soon to make sure we get Theory of Evolution. (We can't be sure of getting it just by relying on rushing a factory/coal plant in a city.)

GL to move the Palace? Not a bad idea, but I'd feel safer having one on hand for an industrial age wonder. There isn't any great immediate location to move the Palace. A Greek city could be nice awhile later, once they've built up their infrastructure, but a Palace move won't gain us anything of significance right now.

What techs will Greece cede for peace? We'll want at least Metallurgy and Physics. If he'll cede both of those, then we should buy Physics and try to get Alex to cede all three of Metallurgy, Gravity, and Magnetism.

We can also try to somehow get Military Tradition ourselves and continue the assault with cavalry. Don't know how we can go about doing that, or if we should. It's up to Urugharakh

 

[JaxomCA]

First of all, great game you are having here on kicking Alex's butt.

Here is my question: I know the pedia states ...doubles the effect of walls in cities that have them. However the editor states City's defense ratings doubled. with no reference to walls. So which one is it?

From my own experiences, it seems like the civ who owns the Great Wall is much harder to take down and cities above size 6 generally result in many more of my troops dying to take down their defenders. So I am under the impresion that the Great Wall does that, doubles the city defense rating whether there is a wall in it or not. Does anybody have good statistical data on that?

 

[JMB]

I must say, the whole thing about the GW is really ridiculous... It should be relatively easy for Firaxis to change the way it is dealt with (so that for people who don't yet understand metallurgy have to still contend with its effects, while those who understand metallurgy avoid its effects...) shouldn't it? Of course, I shouldn't complain too bitterly as I probably wouldn't have been able to take Athens otherwise (as it was, I needed ALL the troops we had accumulated outside Athens had to take it...).

Good luck Urugharakh. Watch out for flips... (something that I forgot to do was build up some shields, rush a cheaper unit, and then switch back to a knight to get more knights out more quickly)

JMB

 

[Urugharakh]

This is scetch of my first turns.

550 AD: moved warriors around and managed to rescue our northern undefended cities.

570 AD: Capture Delphi. Knights and swords against rifles is no fun!

580 AD: Alex has a monopol on free artistry. I size the opportunity and make peace. I do several trades. We are in industrial age having military tradition and a solid income.

More details including my final turns tomorrow.

 

[Urugharakh]

(0) 550 AD: Congrats to your turn, JMB. Getting Athens was more than I hoped for. Sparta is not in optimal position with respect to Thebes, but the cultural border with respect to Delphi is superb, which is worth more than using the river hill. Regarding our northern cities, I expected the landing and forgot to mention it. Lets see, if I can repair my mistake. Warrior from Avaris to Abydos. Warrior from Hieraconpolis to tundra between Abydos and Avaris to deny access to Avaris without a fight. This creates this situation:

Lets hope for the interturn. Some micro management in our captured cities: Thermopylae is on temple with still 10 foreigners in it. Swap to worker at the cost of 3 shields and put on starvation. Swap Athens to worker.


Interturn: Horse attacks Abydos and retreats. arty Cav from Delphi kills spear west of Lisht and promotes. Cav from Delphi kills elite knight in Athens and has 1 hp left. Knight kills warrior in Abydos and takes one hit.

(1) 560 AD: Our knight kills greek knight near Avaris and a warrior kills the 1 hp horse. arty We kill the cav near Lisht as well as the damaged cav near Delphi. I move our troops to take Delphi next turn as well as going for a pillage campain near Knossos. Next level of war weariness, luxes up to 30%. Establish an embassy in Berlin.

Interturn: We loose a knight near Knossos and a sword in Athens. Joanie lands troops near Pi-Ramesses.

(2) 570 AD: Kill cav near Athens. Delphi was defended by 6 rifles, 2 vets, 3 regs and 1 conscript. We lost a couple of knights and swords, but take the city. I plan attacking Corinth next to get ourself some salpeter before making peace. I doubt we can get more and even Corinth is far from sure. Attacking defended rifles in cities with knights and swords is definitely no fun. Peace is worth metallurgy OR physics and ~200 gold.
Our silks to Otto expired and I trade it again, which was a mistake when you consider the next turn. Metallurgy from Otto for silks, 58 gpt and 161 gold. The aim was getting a shoot at military tradition as soon as we can afford it. We can afford military tradition for almost all we have. Without cash left for salpeter and the upgrade Iintend waiting a few turns.

Interturn: India and Greece sign MA against France.

(3) 580 AD: Alex discovered free artistry and nobody else has it. So Peace with Alex and free artistry for 32 gpt and 58 gold.

Physics and 11 g from Joanie for free artistry and 16 gpt.

Cathy lacks magnetism, Otto and Joanie gravity in addition. Liz, Alex and Mao are in industrial age.

Magnetism from Mao for free artistry, 56 gpt and 13 g.
Gravity, 17 gpt and 29 gold from Cathy for magnetism and free artistry.

We enter industrial age. Mao, Cathy and Alex have only nationalism, while Liz lacks the tech.

Free artistry to Liz for 32gpt and 45 gold.
Free artistry and gravity to Otto for military tradition, WM, 16 gpt and 7 gold.
Gravity to Joanie for gems and 9 gold to make sure, Otto doesn't get the opportunity.

Alex and Gandhi have a trade embargo against us, so we can't trade him our silks.

We have significantly enlarged our territory, got tech parity except the free nationalism and still make 166 gpt. We should be prepared for Delphi and Athens flipping back to Greece, but we should be able to keep Thermopylae and Mycenae. I'll start disbanding our swords for certain projects as they are obsolete now. Only question is, shall we disband the sword army? We can now rebuild our knight army, buy salpeter at the appropriate time and attack again, though getting ToE and finishing our infrastructur has a higher priority for me.

(4) 590 AD: Resistance in Delphi ended and the city makes a significant 28 gpt net income thanks to market place, bank and Colossus. Otto got to industrial age too. Establish our last embassy in Moscow. Sell magnetism to Joanie for 8 gpt and 61 g before anyone else does, Remember she has some gems to trade in addition.

(5-10) 600 AD - 650 AD: Liz got nationalism. Athens, Delphi and Thermopylae got a temple and are now down to size 5, 4 and 2. They are still on worker production and starvation. They should be all save in 3 turns, so hope none flipps till then. Greece and France signed peace. We started and finished a couple of city improvements. Hereiklia is still at size 3 and on worker produktion.

Looks like T-hawk has to finish of Alex. Tech progress is slow. One reason might be the AIs researching communism. But our beating on Alex, who was the clear tech leader of the world, might have had some serve impact in the tech progress. We sould tink about the right time for a ToE prebuild. I disbanded all our swords and warriors to save the upkeep. I suggest disbanding our sword army once we find a suitable project for it. They give more than 100 shields. I started a few libaries. We will switch on research once we finished ToE and universities make great prebuilds for factories.

@ Zed-F: As long as Athens and Delphi starve, we have a scientist there. Please remember to replace him every turn, because the game won't keep it. I have it to nationalism in now 33 turns. I don't want to pay the ridiculous AI prices for nationalism and we don't need the tech urgendly like we would need steam power and medicine once they show up. Alexandria is currently on pikes for our completely undefended northern cities.


AD0650

 

[JMB]

Nice turn Urugharakh!

What I am wondering with the picture you posted is why the Greeks didn't just walk past the warrior outside of Avaris and into the undefended city...

A note for whoever is up next... Pharalos is building a granary (due in 8) and will grow in 8 as well. We should rush the granary before we grow or delay our growth by a turn or so... On my quick inspection of the save file, I didn't notice anything else.

JMB

 

[LKendter]

Uh, there was a 2 movement forest square stopping them.

Now smart move would have been kill the warrior and walk in, but this is the AI we are talking about

 

[Urugharakh]

Originally posted by LKendter
Uh, there was a 2 movement forest square stopping them.

Now smart move would have been kill the warrior and walk in, but this is the AI we are talking about

Superb answer right to the point. I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Zed-F]

I think walking into the city at that point would have counted as a second attack, which the horse wouldn't have been able to do since it can't blitz, but it's moot anyway.

BTW, got it.

 

[JMB]

Thanks for the answers. Next time I should think a bit more before posting, lest it should look like I don't know what I am doing... *smile* I really should pay more attention to terrain... (I pay attention to where I move (in an opponents territory), but pay less attention to where the AI can and can't move in my territory...)

Zed, if the horseman (or the knight) had taken out the warrior standing in the open (instead of attacking the city), the other could have waltzed into the city. As you said though, its moot point.

 

[Zed-F]

Pre-turn: Make a couple minor changes, rush a couple workers, otherwise everything looks good.

Early turns: China, Greece, and England have Steam Power. I consider purchasing it but there is a problem, we have about 20 slaves but only 12 native workers. I will hold off to see if we can get a 2-fer. In the meantime we need some worker factories - Aysut, Ephasus, and Pharsalos for starters, and maybe some of our other Greek cities too. A couple granaries get rushed to that end. Shake's is built by China and Newton by France, ending the cascade.

Late turns: Memphis is out of useful things to build at the moment and starts a palace prebuild for ToE. This could be changed to a factory if we get Industrialization soon however. At least some of the AIs have got Industrialization, France and Greece have just started on Suffrage. So far no sign of Medicine. We may want to get Steam and Industrialization even though there are no 2-fer opportunities yet, but Biz is still missing both so we may at some point be able to trade for Nationalism. We have a few more Knights out of Thebes and Heliopolis. We have pikes in all our northern towns so Alexandria is off military and currently building a library. Universities started in several cities as factory prebuilds. Some workers still need movement in case you decide to pick up Steam.

For now we still have all our Greek cities, and all are at 1 Greek national (except for Ephasus which somehow has 2.) Alex has been marching troops along our border and has just walked a rifle in. I'll let the next leader decide what to do about that. Consider that Alex will probably have some factories built when you decide whether to go to war in the near future. We may want to have several of our own in place before we make some wartime decisions. It would also be nice to have Nationalism for rifles and mobilization. We definately could make use of them in this case. We will also need to marshal our troops to appropriate staging areas now that the flip risk is somewhat lessened, and get some defenders in a couple of Greek cities that only have knights in them at the moment. In other news, China is about to wipe India off the face of the planet. (Why does Ghandi always seem to fare so poorly?)

T-Hawk, it's up to you! I'm guessing we don't want to wait any longer to get Steam, Industry, and possibly Nationalism so we can wipe Alex off our continent, but I'll let you make the call.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe4-egypt-750ad.zip

 

[T-hawk]

Got it, will play in a bit.

I think Alex is beaten -- gassed, as Sirian would put it -- and we don't need to rush to finish him off. What would we stand to still gain from him? I'd like to first see us with a full complement of infrastructure - factories and hospitals, with ToE and Hoover secure. If we can beat Alex to Replaceable Parts, we can roll over him with artillery easily enough; probably flipping the switch on mobilization for a few turns.

Gandhi always fares poorly? Did ya read TH3, in which Gandhi wiped the floor with Mao's butt?

 

[Zed-F]

Well, more territory is a good thing. We definately need the infrastructure, but it would be nice to get some more use out of our knights (upgraded to cavs) before replaceable parts comes along. Can we wage limited war for about 10 turns with mostly what we've already got while still primarily focussing on infrastructure builds? This would also have a side effect of slowing down Alex even further; right now he's still at the front of the tech train, and presumably getting quite a bit of gpt coming in from other civs. China looks likely to take over as tech leader soon, but not quite yet. Anyway, no sweat to focus on infrastructure first if you don't want to go to war and build infrastructure at the same time.

 

[JMB]

I think that if we upgrade our knights (I think we have close to 30 of them), we can take a lot of land from Alex even while concentrating on infrastructure (and our rail network). We might even be able to snag a leader or two... (to be able to rush Sufferage). Also, I noticed that we are still a Republic. Perhaps we should switch to a democracy soon...

JMB

 

[Zed-F]

I don't think we want to switch to democracy at least until after we have booted Alex off our continent. War weariness is usually tolerable in Republic, but less so in Democracy.