RBE5 - The Sea is a Harsh Mistress (PTW)

[JaxomCA]

Way to go, the Thrifty, that's the spirit!

If another war started on Arabia, it might be a good idea to jump in, maybe we don't have enough military for an effective offense but we should have enough to land on the incense and keep it. I would go faster on the palace, there will always be time later on to slow it down to a single spt.

 

[Architect]

Roster:

Architect <-- UP
Charis
JaxomCA
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

Got it.

 

[Charis]

We're frankly way behind, due to our dry small start. We've done well with what we had, but have a lot to go. The early prebuild was I think a good call, and I'm confident we can get the Great Library if we are careful and make it a prioriy!!




Way to go, the Thrifty, that's the spirit!

If another war started on Arabia, it might be a good idea to jump in, maybe we don't have enough military for an effective offense but we should have enough to land on the incense and keep it. I would go faster on the palace, there will always be time later on to slow it down to a single spt.

> -Jaxom- I would go faster on the palace, there will always be
> time later on to slow it down to a single spt.

No, slow now is correct! Even if the AI researches it we may not have cash to buy it. I wish we had not gone single beaker, but that's too late to change now. The reason is that with 'real' research spent, not just a single beaker, we would get a discount later and probably afford it. 40 instead of 30 turns of reseach might just mean the difference between getting and missing the GL. I don't think we'll be hit with a cascade problem. Once we do get Literature, don't give it up for ANY reason (perhaps until another AI has it too). There will be only a small window between when an AI learns Lit and between when we will finish it (unless they're heavy into researching it now)

Even with the current slow down, it's NOT enough! We will need to either slow it down further OR take about 3-6 cycles of putting the specialist to work and LETTING Bergen go into disorder (then fixing next round, and repeating). The reason you can't wait til later is simply because our food comes from the same tiles as the good shields. Waiting to later to slow would require starving it down to such a small size that it would take to long to finish the wonder once we have Lit!

We can do it! Stay focused on it and don't panic!

The benefit, if that is needed:
Philosophy, Code of Laws, Republic (revolt into this!), Monarchy, Currency, Construction, Horseback Riding, Monotheism, Theology and almost surely Feudalism and a few more, maybe five more. All for free due our prebuild and diligence! THAT is worth going for!

> We are also making 9 GPT at the moment with 74 in the bank.
> When the current trade deal expires, we may want to speed up
> research on Literature.
It'll be too late, I think, but if economics say it's good at the time, yes go for it.

> I'm afraid of a cascade off the Great Wall when someone finally
> gets around to starting it.
My F7 shows no one is working on it? Again, if they don't research/get Literature they CAN'T build GL. If they DO research lit, we can buy it and finish before them.

> I'm also afraid of no one getting Lit before our prebuild is done.
*WE* Will! You're right not to trust them! Go max slow speed on palace AND use the civil disorder cycling a couple of times.

--
On another matter, also quite Urgent...

Arabia.

The Celts are at war with them, and are THE killer civ of the ancient era. Arabia has Mecca and two size one cities left.

They are *TOAST*

If we don't get down there *ASAP* with our two swords, two horses and two spears, it will be Celt land and we'll have no invasion until we're amphibious! I don't expect Brennus to take too long to get them! Having BOTH galleys go exploring... that was NOT the point of mapmaking!! Kudos finding Spain, that's for sure But we need to switch Oslo or Trondheim or both, to galley *NOW*, and get our people down there QUICKLY!

If we can take Damascus, we can take Mecca at our leisure, as the Celts will be cut off! Mecca itself will be our incense town. Only if it looked like Mecca was about to fall next turn would it be good to settle ON the incense immediately. Stockholm can wait ONE turn, switch to settler, then whip it - to get a settler on that
hill fast enough.

Doing this we could have two galleys filled with two swords and spears within four rounds, one landing at the choke past Damascus two rounds after that, one immediately dumping a spear or two on the incense hill. The settler and two horse and two more spears can be immediately behind them.

Celts UU is double speed, fighting a "gassed" civ. Time really is short on Arabia!!

Gogogogogo!!!
Charis

PS in Edit - more specifically on Bergen - it's due to shrink this turn. Next turn if you move a cattle worker to the plain grass, and put one scientist on, the city will be a happy no-grow size 5 handling all our reserach needs. Palace will be due in 25-27, and literature in 29, meaning 1 to 3 'disorder' cyles (each loses 2 turns) to slow it down to perfection!

 

[Architect]

Right there with you Charis. I took one look at the game and said to myself we need to attack the Arabs now.

I'm not sure we need both those harbors in Rey and Birka. First priority should be attacking arabia and getting her luxuries online. Harbors gains very little in those cities as they are still growing. I'll probably leave the harbor in Birka just to hook up the luxuries.

Should be a fun turn... wish me luck.

 

[JaxomCA]

I took the time to open the save game and I see you point Charis. No need to go in disorder though. Pillaging the game tile and one other non bonus grassland will let us configure Bergen to 1spt at size 5. This will gives us about 60 turns until the palace is completed. Ideally it would complete the turn after we get to literature on our own. We can also set research to 50% and get literature in 22 turns at -5gpt for 4 turns and then at -1 gpt. That will leave us quite poor but with a good shot at getting the GL.

I agree with Architect about harbors, we need only one for now and Birka could really use it.

Have fun Architect and get us closer to the fabled malted liquor

 

[Iteean]

Ouch, you are painfully correct about the urgency of attacking Arabia, Charis. I was focusing too hard on the GL. My explorations were a hedge against an AI stealing the wonder from us. In a recent game, an AI stole it from me with a leader and it made me too cautious perhaps. Didn't want to risk the whole game on the GL. Sorry for dropping the ball on that one.

We'll almost surely get a foothold though, since the culture of Mecca will shrink if the Celts get it. I had no idea they had such a good UU!

Good luck, Architect!

Iteean

 

[Architect]

550BC (0) Switch the harbor in Rey to a galley costs us a total of six sheilds. I go down to one MP in Bergen, Stockholm, and Rey and bump luxs to 30% in the process. More troops means more gains. I switch stockholm to swordsman will rush in a turn or two. I rush a second galley in Oslo. I trade Mathematics to the mongols for their wm and 87g. I'm going to assume we get all our techs from the GL. Gotta love those gambits. I also want cash in case we have to run at a deficit while our boys are invading.

530BC (1) The Koreans begin the great wall. Two archers land on incense hill. I discover that Arabia actually has four cities. One is over by Agedincum. I adjust Bergen to complete the palace in 26 turns. We are at +0gpt. I go ahead and trade map making to the ottomans for their WM and 27g.

510BC (2) Rey goes into disorder. Whoops... Spearman and horseman land on incense hill. Two swordsman load into galley which moves around the "backside" of mecca. Our second galley unloads two warriors into Trondhiem and boards a Horseman and spearman.

Here is our invasion forces:

I veto my own galley in Trondheim and switch to swordsman. Abu insists we leave, we declare war!

490BC (3) We land two swordsman and move our remain forces off to incense hill. Next turn we attack Mecca. The Clets have destroyed the far flung Arabian city and Medina has already fallen too. its going to be a race for Damascas. Korea declares war on the celts. Hmmm..... I watch the AI move a spearman from Mecca to go defend Damascus..

470BC (4) I'm going to try to take Mecca with archers and horseman first and then move the swordsman right next to Damascas.

We kill two regular spearman and lose an archer. There is still an archer defending and I'm gonna have to attack with a swordman to ensure victory. We take mecca and gain control of the incense.

I start a harbor in Mecca.

I move our remaining swordsman to the hill outside Damascus and the celts are on the outskirts and will attack next turn...

The celts are about to discover the Mongols so i decide to sell contact with everyone. I sell Contact with the Mongols and spanish to the celts for 458 gold and their world map. The GL gambit continues... I sell Contact with the ottomans, Arabs, and Koreans to the Spanish for their WM and 161 gold. I sell the remaining contacts around and we have 858gold now. We could run a -10gold deficit now getting the GL in 20 turns as opposed to 26. I decide against it. Gonna be interesting.

450BC (5) Damascus launches an offensive against the celts and defeats the horseman. The celts counter attack and now two spearman and 1 horseman will attack next turn. I move 2 swordsman, 2 horseman, and 1 spearman into position for an attack next turn. Stockholm produces a settler next turn. Let's hope I can get it over in time before the celts claim anymore land. Mecca starves next turn, we have no choice. The celts defeat the arabs.

430BC (6) We didn't get the Dyes and now we find ourselves in a very interesting position. Our proximity to Damascus and the AI desire to "complete" continents suggests that while the Celts are currently polite with us, this will not last long. I think we need to press on with our offensive and attack the celts. If we don't, we will be attacked soon enough and have to defend mecca from a prepared AI vs. one that is right now attacking the koreans too. I establish and embassy with Korea. I attack the celts.

410BC (7) We take Damascus losing 2 swordsman in the process. We have 2 spearman, 2 horseman, and 1 swordsman defending Damascus. We are about to be attacked by 2 archers and a spearman. Damascus holds. There are now 3 horseman, an archer, and a spearman outside Damascus.

390BC (8) I upgrade two warriors to swordsman as there is a celt vessel approaching our homeland. I goes poorly in damascus. We lose 2 spearman and 2 swordsman. There are now 2 horseman defending.

370BC (9) I attack and kill a spearman and an archer. There are now 2 archers outside Damascus. I move a final archer to Damascus to try and hold it for one more turn. Spain has discovered the Carths. We hold Damascus for now!!!

350BC (10) I move 2 horseman from Damascus to Mecca to heal and move 2 swordsman into position holding Damascus for now. We need to get as many swordsman as we can over to the Celtic continent. I am producing spearman so our swordsman can be used right away and stop defending. If we can get Medina somehow we will control most of the Dyes. This could be huge later on. We are 20 turns from Lit, 17 from Palace. We now have 2 elite horseman. Let's try to get a leader. We maybe have 2 turns before the celts launch a counter attack with at least three horseman. Here is the great Viking Nation.

Roster:

Architect
Charis <-- UP
JaxomCA
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

Here's the save:

350BC

 

[JaxomCA]

The crowd cheers our great general Architect! Bar owners are already making shelf space to store the soon to be acquire fabled malted liquor. A Viking warrior got sick by drinking a mixture of incense and wheat and dropped his mug in a fire. Nearby women were quick to notice how good the incense smell is at masking the men's odors. Viking women are already discussing next season fashion, arguing over what color will be in, thanks to the new found dyes. The Viking army is praising our general, as in true Viking spirit, not only did he betray the Arabs but the powerful Celts too! We are not afraid, the drunken Gallic swordman can come running, we will destroy them!

On a more serious note, Architect, but was it necessary to do 2 ROP rapes? I am not sure how much of an impact it will have long term, but our short term reputation is definitely toast. Not that I mind too much, it makes for a better story that way

Did you check with Korea if they would have paid something for an alliance? Not that it matters much, we are in a very good position to grab the GL. I doubt the isolated Carthage will research and build the GL before we do.

850 golds? Nice war chest, that should pay for a few rounds of malted liquor

Overall, kudos, Songs will be written about your feat!

 

[Charis]

Oh MY!!!! Very well done on the capture of Mecca, ouch on the timing on Damascus,
and on the Celtic war! I was thinking Mecca was the foothold we needed,
while we ride the GL coattailas to Invention and Berzerkers, when we SWEEP through
the now-Celtic land with Berzerkers on offense and Pikes on defense. Instead it's
swords and spears vs Gallic Swords. If I can survive this turn with Damascus intact,
it will be a victory - that's my first impression.

[ I leave this next paragraph in, as it was written before something that
happened on my turn, which makes it quite ironic. Pay this no attention! ]
One comment on our war vs Arabia. Landing on their territory FIRST and then making
them tell us to leave and take the declaration of war this way was a totally
unneccessary hit to our reputation, a 'dastardly' act if you will. A small
one, but one with zero benefit over declaring with no one in their territory
then landing on the hill and moving our galleys in place. It shouldn't really
affect us, but I wanted to point out the small hit.

[0] 350 BC - Preturn
- I notice something which might be absolutely critical...
Celts have NO IRON!!! Gallic swords, their mainland vs our colony, would just
chew us up and spit us out. But that's why they're using just archers and horses!!
- Korea has 1 iron, no extra, same for Ottomans, Mongols (lux captial of the world)
has one extra, so does Spain (but unconnected)
- Histogram shows Mongols and Celts on top, Koreans so-so, Spain and Ottomans in trouble.
F11 shows Carthage (who we don't know yet) with top city. Trondheim number 5.
- The Great Wall in progress is in a fishing village in Korea, and a low-shields
spot in Celts land. NO COMPETITION for the wonder! Great!
- We can cut back to 20% lux with just a specialist in Burka, but that slows sword
production, and we're more dire for troops than cash right now. Keep at 30%.
In fact, a small troop difference could lose our whole island. We fire all entertainers
and push it to 50% at least for the next few turns! With higher lux I can cycle Bergen
workers to give +1 food for 2 round matched by moving a cattle to sea for a turn,
this will get the needed slowdown to exactly match our literature research.
- Given the war situation, Copenhagen switches from harbor to barracks. It will want
the harbor after the war, also a temple
- We buy Korea's world map, and see where Carthage is (deep South). Sell WM around
Good news is, Carthage has no strong 'shield' cities to speak of at all!
- We lack some embassies, and I need more options - we buy one in Mongolia
Karakorum has 7spt, a rax and temple, working on a catapult. Verified 2 irons.
Madrid 10spt, only a granary, making non-vet swordsman right now.
Istanbul, home of the Oracle is making... wealth! 12spt.
- Will the Mongols, sole civ with extra iron, ally vs the Celts? Yes, but for 500 gold!
That sounds expensive, but... having the two top civs angry at each other is a
Very Good Thing(TM) Lowering our sliders to raise our apparent income, I swing
it as a gpt deal - 20gpt and 152g. That would make Celts in THREE wars.
It's expensive, but I think the right move to keep us from ever seeing the Celtic UU.
With this 'support', it's conceivable that we might press down to Baghdad, a lower
chokepoint, that pulls in even more dyes and area. It could conceivable help Spain,
currently fighting the Mongols. I do it! Mongols are now gracious! We're locked
in for 20 turns vs the Celts (unless Mongols hurt their rep and take peace early)
* We'll be running a deficit during this war because of this alliance, until
the Mongols make peace with the Celts or for the next 20 turns.

[1] 330 BC - Two horse move up to Damascus, the wounded archer retreats.
Where now does the settler go? With Mecca in hand we don't need it, or
want it, on incense hill. Keep it in reserve? Or found a fishing village
west of Mecca? The problem with the village... it's SO close to our capital
that it would kick several core cities deeper down the ranked list of closest-
to the capital. Although I don't like to, I'm going to save the settler for now.

At Damascus, the first horse retreats, and we defeat the second but get hurt.
Our sword from the hill goes to hunt down the wounded horse.

Midturn - not good, they kill our exposed sword and move up more horses to Damascus!

[2] 310 BC - Sword in west kills horse and promotes to elite.
At Damascus, with our foes having 2 attack and 1 defense, we press the attack.
The first one is a nail-biter, elite vs elite and we start with early damage, but
prevail. With no other defender there, can't afford to have the last sword attack
though.

Expedience suggests a harbor whip now in Mecca. The incense will make the people
back home, who long for malted beverage, somewhat happier. And we can get to
making spears or even swords at Mecca, with imported iron.

Along with this we switch Damascus to warrior, so we can pay-upgrade him.

[3] 290 BC - Midturn we lost our sword and a horse, just one left! 8-\

Our spear and sword arrive via ship from Trondheim.

It's our stack of: warrior, sword, spear, wounded horse, vs SIX horse, and
more likely on the way! This just doesn't look good...

Midturn - Carthage contacts US! (Glad I waited) He wants our world map so bad
he'll give us Philosophy for free for it! If he had any cash I would take that
instead, but as a GL fallback, I won't turn down free tech.

Even better, Ottomans and Koreas ally vs Celts!

We hold vs the first two attacks, then lose our sword... and spear...
They leave us with the elite horse and very wounded sword left.
The other wounded sword walks into town.

[4] 270 BC - Celts sent a few wounded back to heal, but still a stack of SIX full hp,
units including two elite horses, and each round it seems four new ones come
storming out of Medina. We got all the defenders we could scrape together
quickly (including leaving Trondheim open one turn), but now... our
production is not such that we could get ONE unit per turn into position,
and even that after a two turn or so boat ride. If we lose Damascus,
Mecca falls, and our toehold is gone. We have only 9 DefPts*hp to stop them.
A 2hp sword, 1hp sword, and 1-defense horse. Oh btw, no defenders in Mecca.
None. Just our settler. We're about to get shredded.

I need to do something here that isn't nice. Seek peace with an ongoing alliance.
(I can now officially rate the alliance as weed on my part, I didn't expect THIS
many units coming at me)

But it's an "RBE" game, and I need to check the rules... This is not listed
as an exploit, nor is it in spirit an 'exploit'. The alliance was meant as
real, and I paid good money for it. The crushing Celtic response has changed the
situation to where we must take peace now. It is dastardly, and probably more
so than the "sneak attack" we already pulled. Our reputation is not going to
be in great shape after this. I hope now even more that we get the GL and don't
have to trade for the next 9 techs or so!! The fact that the Mongols are already
known to be backstabbers (so says our foreign advisor) makes this less painful.

Will Brennus even talk with us - it's been short war so far?
Yes, good. How much does he want? FREE???!
WTH - He'll give **US** our choice of one tech - Currency, Code of Laws, Construction?
Wowza! Brennus really doesn't even look mad in the animation... odd...
In fact, Currency and Code of Laws is 'close to a deal' and for a nominal one-time
cash fee, he'll throw us both. Tech and near-free tech... works for me!

If I thought we could make progress past Damascus I would continue. At least now
we have the choice of a 20 turn military build up and redeclaring. We take the
peace and the tribute of two techs.

Celts will take gpt from us, so it's NOT a "blackened" rep.
The Mongols are ticked, and will not accept any gpt from us.
Every other civ will! It seems only the Mongols were hurt by our move (true)
and so only they distrust us. (Still... I feel... dirty I guess I like
'reputable' rules. I almost want to give back the rest of the gpt for the alliance
that the mongols were to receive. Ironically, it's very likely he would have made
peace and screwed us before 20 turns.)

I give Temujin a free gift of our world map to ease my guilt, expecting derision.
He actually goes from Furious to Annoyed? Hmm... We sell the map around, Spain pays 2gpt.

[5-7] 250 BC through 210 BC - Delightfully quiet turns.

I notice Burka is making a non-vet sword and swap him to temple.

[8] 190 BC - Send down another sword, spear and worker to the island.

[9] 170 BC - Ok, I've got Bergen adjust to perfection. Literature due in 11 turns,
Palace in 12, growth in 19. Lux at 10%, sci at 10%.
No specialists anywhere, everyone is working.

[10] 150 BC - Worker en route to island

There are a few temples and harbors going, feel free to swap all those to
swords or spears to better barricade the island!

Phew! We survived, with three free techs and a little soot on us.

JaxomCA <-- Up, 20 turns
Arathorn <-- On deck, 10 turns

Save game 150BC

Good luck!
Charis

Epilogue - there was a reason the Celts wiped the Arabs off the map, they have a large and effective army. We made out well, but I think we got lucky that the Celts sought peace so easily, likely due to being in about 4 wars. If they refused to see our envoy, we would be kicked off our colony right now, no question about it.

 

[Yndy]

Those last 20 turns were one of the most exciting reads I had in the last weeks.
I guess it's your way of telling it with me imagining the whole situation and the fact that you were right on the edge there.

I imagine you feel sorry for the dastardly acts. But on deity sticking to the honorable rules is a gamble which sometimes is too much. I think it's good enough that you only use it when at maximum risk.

In my games I'm sticking to a modded honorable set of rules which gives me some more space while keeping the spirit of the game. I too had to break an ongoing alliance and felt ban but since i didn't plan it and don't intend to do it again I feel that the rep hit i took balances the action.

However, Architect's limited ROP betrayal was unnecessary.
Good luck

 

[Iteean]

Taking the fight to the Celts? That's initiative! Quite an exciting few turns there.

As for breaking the military alliance, is it typical for only the civ you betrayed to refuse you gpt and such? I was under the impression everyone started treating you differently. New PTW behavior perhaps?

Iteean

 

[Architect]

None of my moves affect reputation in anyway that I am aware of. The only move that's affected our rep is the breaking of the alliance with the Mongols which I consider weed evening signing them up. The Celts were already as distracted as they were ever going to be attacking the koreans on a different island.

Since when is attacking a civ with no ROP in their territory a ROP rape guys? We did not have a Right of Passage. Does ROP stand for something else?

That's called a sneak attack its not exploitive and its not going to affect our reputation significantly. Maybe there is some weird Epic rule about this being unfair to the poor AI, but I know its not exploitive.

If RBE2 taught me anything is we will never hold onto our footholds without being more offensive. We should spend the next 20 turns building up military only and taking it to the celts. We should then march right up to Medina and attack them.

What was everyone thinking we were going to do with Beserks? I thought we were going to sail right up to their coastal cities and attack.

 

[JaxomCA]

Architect, your move was not exploitative at all, but the AI does consider it a ROP rape if you declare war with any military unit inside their territory, even without any ROP in effect. Under RBE rules, it is simply dastard.

Now with Charis breaking an alliance, I guess the path is decided, we are the dastard Vikings, terror of the sea! None shall trust us and eventually, all shall fear us!

Shall we make it rule? Any wars will require one dastard act on our part. That would allow to check if there is any changes to how rep is handled.

Oh and consider this my got it.

 

[Architect]

Oh, and BTW, JaxomCA you should only play 10 turns.

Oppps, missed the mid-turn JaxomCA post about Epic rules...

So you are telling me if I sign an ROP, move my troops into position and attack in the same turn 10 cities the AI considers it the very same to walking up to one city, outside of an ROP and attacking?

Where's the proof for this? I think this is Civ III lore.

This game is not an Epic. We all agreed not to use exploitive tactics as defined by the Epic rules. Everything else is fair game. I'm able to control myself enough not to do anything outside of the rules and break the spirit of the game. The arab attack was just what I would expect viking attacks to be like. We just landed and took what is rightfully ours. The celt attack was completly opportunistic, another viking characteristic. Let's try to play the rest of the game without a bunch of rules lawyering going on.

Don't do anything that breaks the spirit of the game or is exploitive with-in the rules of the Epics. We also shouldn't foolishly break gpt deals and peace treaties either as that will just make it harder for us to deal with the AI. Play smart, have fun, quit worrying about if something is dastardly or not.

 

[Arathorn]

Umm...interesting turns to say the least. I like the fact that we have a toehold on the main continent and a second luxury. I don't like the implicit RoP rape (twice) as there was little to be gained from it [and, yes, it does cost rep. Or at least it did in Civ3, I've not verified in PTW.]. Peace now is, I think, a very good option.

I will be away starting tomorrow morning for slightly more than a week. I will not have any consistent access to the web or to Civ3, so consider me skipped. I will check the boards this evening, and if it's my turn, I'll take it and play. If I've not posted by about midnight (CST) tonight, I'm AWL (Absent With Leave) and will hopefully jump back into the rotation in a little over a week.

Did we get the FP message yet? Damascus as FP?

Arathorn

 

[Charis]

Sorry to sound rulemongerish here, but since I haven't played with you (Architect) before I just don't know what's in your normal 'set' of manuevers, and what you try to avoid. I don't want to see any 'rules' added to this game beyond 'no exploits'.

The declaration within AI territory is a "Sneak Attack", nothing more. Not an exploit, and in this game is fair game. It WILL have a reputation impact, but is just not in the same category as RoP rape. The fact that the Celts will take gpt from us suggests that Brennus thinks "I would sneak attack you too if we have the chance". My concern in bringing it up was twofold - i) unsure if you know that saying 'No' to 'Get out' is in fact a sneak attack, and ii) I didn't at all see the advantage gained by doing it, ie was it a 'needless' sullying? If it was important to get to his cities and attack one round earlier, than it was 'useful'.

It would be nice to know with some certainty the effects of the various non-reputable actions, and WHAT civs they effect. (Like Mongol alliance break, seeming to just affect them)

> Let's try to play the rest of the game without a bunch of rules
> lawyering going on.

Roger that.

I agree that signing the alliance was
Taking peace when I did was not. The whole island was lost if I didn't. Of course, mil buildup and reconvene in 20 is still an option.

> Now with Charis breaking an alliance, I guess the path is
> decided, we are the dastard Vikings, terror of the sea! None
> shall trust us and eventually, all shall fear us!

The AI still trust us to a degree more than I would have expected, and I don't plan on doing these kinds of actions without need. Opportunistically? Maybe

I'm not sure you caught the KEY point of the alliance in the first place, denial of Celts of Iron from Mongols. If Celts trade for Iron, we're also toast on that Island, pre-Invention. (Having played Gallic swords with devastating effect, from the other side of the fence)

> What was everyone thinking we were going to do with
> Beserks? I thought we were going to sail right up to their
> coastal cities and attack.

That was my impression, although if we have a foothold and an objective like Medina/Baghdad, they can walk too

Charis

PS If the Celts make peace with everyone, they WILL seek a military target. If we look vulnerable, ie not a huge garrison in Damascus and good defense in Mecca, the target will be us. It'll be better for us to choose the timing then them if that happens. And again I hope they have no iron at that time.

 

[Arathorn]

Charis, I think you're overestimating the value of the gallic swordsman since you ran it to such great effect. A gallic costs 50 shields, which is equivalent to one horse and one archer or one sword and one archer. That's quite a bit of money. The 6 horsemen stack you saw would've been 3 (or 4) gallics, which certainly doesn't have any MORE offensive potential than the horseman stack.

As for the alliance being , I don't think so. Having the Mongols and Celts hate each other can only work to our advantage. Yeah, breaking the deal is probably gonna be an ouchie at a few points along the line, but everything was right (or at least very defensible) at the time it was done.

My $.02,
Arathorn

 

[JaxomCA]

I have opened the save game and tested the waters about deals. Strangely enough, only the Celts and the Spanish will accept gpt from us, everybody else 'will never accept such a deal'. Playing around with ROP deals, they would all accept at the new outrageous PTW cost for ROP. It seems the only rep hit we have is about the broken alliance.

Isabella would give the Republic if we declare war on the mongols. It is tempting but the timing is a bit off. It may not be a good idea to revolt before we have a reasonable defense on Celtic lands.

I won't play my turn for a few hours, I'll check back before I do to see any inputs about Republic.

 

[Charis]

I do agree that ALL actions taken seemed right to the player at the time, and the result of each action has been quite good so far!

Jaxom I think you're incorrect about gpt on the save file. I looked after the break, and if I offer 2gpt for anyone's world map (except Mongols) they WILL take it, Celts included. Whether they value 1gpt as nearly 20gold or closer to 10 gold is another question!

I'll stick with my Gallic assessment Arathorn, although admit it's kind of early in PtW to be able to make good evaluations with any certainty. But with Deity production discounts, the *2* defense of the Gallics, their ability to retreat, to move up to Damascus and hit the same round, and 3 attack strength, I think four GS would walk all over us with four defenders, while six horse have closer to an even chance, or less. I'm not seeing the "it's cost is so high" having as big an impact in the RBP1 game as expected, and we get no Deity discount

Jaxom - wow, declaring war on Mongols, now we're REALLY getting into the ruthless Viking spirit, aren't we?! We'll get it free in ~20 turns from GL (if things go as planned) so don't stretch hard for it. But sheesh, they'll give us that tech JUST for an alliance?? I assume you have no intention of actually providing any REAL aid to them, right? Splitting our efforts would cost us the Mecca colony I would surely think. Now I happen to view even wars-in-name-only as beneficial for those who hire us, but I've read that if you have zero combats or pillage actions vs the allied-foe, your image or rep with the allying civ will take a hit (likely a small one, not sure?) Is it something that I think the Vikings would do in this game? In a heartbeat! Lets drag the whole world down into war, and slow the tech pace so our zerker advantage will last longer

Charis

 

[JaxomCA]

Charis, try something bigger, like polytheism. Spain will accept a deal for 15 or so gpt, all others want only cash upfront. The Mongols won't offer anything for help against Spain, I wonder why?

Of course I have no intention of taking units to Mongolia, not that we are afraid, no sir, it just seems our army is more motivated when stirred toward Entremont. Now if it would turn out that the Mongols are growing plants with strange effects, this may change