RBP8 - Culture Conquerors

I was holding off on producing Impis because of (amongst others) early Golden Age issues : what's our take on that GA ?
I believe we should trigger it as we start war vs France (I agree with CB that early GAs are way under rated...).
What do you think about Lyons instead of Paris for our next new cultural capital ?
 
> Looks good. One nit: Charishaka the Micromanager left Ulundi
> working +2 food instead of +3.
Inexcusable! :P Actually, the Great Elephant was switching tiles in every city, every round, oh Great Hawk. Either it needs exactly 2 food to grow, or I didn't get around to switching it back.

> One other nit: the worker chopping forest at Hlobane should be
> chopping one tile south of where it is; that would let irrigation
> go through the horses tile and get to the wheats sooner.
Roger.

> OK, one more nit: chopping jungle at Isandhlwana? Better, I
> think, to just build the road through, and get the workers busy
> irrigating plains there and eventually hooking up the iron.
This was considered, but in cases where I know I want both jungle gone AND a road, and both fairly soon, I tend to chop first. That city is hurting for food, and I wanted to get it a grass asap. But it's a close call, and if someone else chose to road first rather than chop I wouldn't disagree. Tnx for pointing these out.

> I'd also like to point out that despite starting in the jungle,
> we're STILL out-expanding our rivals.
:hammer: Actually, that *is* impressive.

> I was holding off on producing Impis because of (amongst
> others) early Golden Age issues : what's our take on that GA ?
> I believe we should trigger it as we start war vs France (I
> agree with CB that early GAs are way under rated...).

I knew this was the main reason you had not, and a good reason. I too agree that early GA's are under-rated, and in this game in particular, we'll want to see our 20K city get as big a boost as early as possible. Besides, for purely RPG reasons, the Great Elephant is in love with his Impi and disdains archers.

> What do you think about Lyons instead of Paris for our next
> new cultural capital ?

I don't think there is a huge difference, as (by my reasoning) we'll be capturing both those cities (and most/all others of France as well.) The distance is similar from our capital, and the tiles are somewhat similar. Doh... I was just doing to say that I favor Paris just because we would have the Pyramids, but since I just said we'll capture both cities, it doesn't matter. (If Egypt gets Pyramids instead of Paris, they'll be the game superpower for sure, and we may end needing to hit Thebes in the heart of their territory to prevent early launch). If Paris doesn't expand first, we have a one-step move from neutral territory to right next to Paris (unless Marseilles took that neutral land away), while Lyons is deeper. From the perspective of 'showing them' who has the greater culture, Paris is more appropriate. But really, I wouldn't mind it either way.

Besides the Pyramids issue, as far as timing, we'll want to get our city captured in sufficient time to have it prebuild for, and get, the Great Library, or we'll have a *monstrous* task in front of us. Here's where the final rule about one offensive war hurts us - it would be better for that city by far to have *already* taken it in a lightning war with very limited objectives, then come back later and claim a 'ring' of cities around it in a subsequent war. Unless I'm misreading our restriction, we can't do that. This makes things harder, but more interesting as well. Given our slow capture (perhaps very slow), there may be a greater need than expected for a few leader-farming defensive wars. (And without the luxury of a Heroic Epic, since any great leader should be used to rush a wonder in our 20k city, not form an army)

Charis
 
@Charis: Heroic Epic itself produces a ton of culture (5 per turn, 10 after doubling),and is also a very useful pre-build for other wonders (although I suspect you'll be using palace pre-build), so using a leader for an army (and then building Heroic Epic in your captured city) may not be all that bad a move.
 
@Nad : good point !

@Charis : maybe I did not look too good but it seemed to me the terrain was quite different between Lyons and Paris. OK probably the total shields and food are the same but the spread is quite different and I find the Lyons spread more diverse and could help be more creative. No ?

This is definitely shaping up into a major race against the clock, as in "race against 2050"....
 
Originally posted by Nad
@Charis: Heroic Epic itself produces a ton of culture (5 per turn, 10 after doubling)

<delurk>
Actually it's 4 cpt initially, but still, that's not bad at all!
Good luck guys. I will be reading this one with great interest.
</delurk>
 
Wow, my turn is up when I was sleeping :). Ill post my Ive got it :D.
 
CivGeneral's 10 Turns

1500BC - Preturn Annalysis

Anylized the situation of the game

1475BC - Turn 1

Moved a Couple of units, Gave workers there orders

1450BC - Turn 2

Zimbabwe: Settler -> Impi
Isandhlwana: Warrior -> Temple

Gave workers orders
Moved units for Exploration

1425BC - Turn 3

Ulundi: Chariot -> Impi
Bapedi: Granary -> Settler

Checked up on trades
England
They Give:
Map Making

We give:
146g

1400BC - Turn 4

Mpondo: Worker -> Barracks

1375BC - Turn 5

Zzzzzz... Unit movement & Worker Orders

1350BC - Turn 6

Can someone Explain to me why a Barb Warrior just loves to Follow my scout :hmm:
Swazi has been founded

1325BC - Turn 7

The French wants to talk to us
Checked up on trades
French
They Give:
Code of Laws

We give:
106g

Warrior moves close to our Worker, moved a Warrior to defend "I dont think so Barb Warrior"

Zimbabwe: Imp -> Temple

1300BC - Turn 8

Hehe, That warrior scared that Barb away
Bapedi: Settler -> Imp

1275BC - Turn 9

Ulundi: Impi -> Temple
Zzzzzz... Unit movement & Worker Orders

1250BC - Turn 10

Zzzzzz... Unit movement & Worker Orders
Intombe: Barracks -> Impi

Note to the next player: The Settler is enroute to the Cow Tile that is on the plains (I Strongly recomend Settleling Next to the cattle.

RBP8 - 1250BC Save

Youre up T-hawk :Thumbup::goodjob:
 
OK, I've got it. One point of discussion - it's usually not necessary to buy techs at full price like that. Better to wait, bide our time, and see if we can eventually find an opportunity to buy Map Making from somebody and immediately resell it to somebody else for Code off Laws. Or wait until our minimum research on Polytheism finishes and see if we can trade that for the techs, rather than spending the cash.
 
OK, let's see how things look.

Zinbabwe's building a temple? Unneeded. Also, the city is sitting at one food short of growing. Careful with that micromanagement. :) Swapped to settler; there's still a couple more sites we want to fill.

And I really have to wonder about the worker management. There's two workers outside our borders at Hlobane when there's two unirrigated wheats right there. I have no idea what the worker building a road in jungle at Mpondo is trying to accomplish; he gets moved out of there right away. And CivGeneral didn't fix the weed in clearing jungle at Isandhlwana. Well, I guess we may as well let that last complete now.

==========

Still not much to report on a turn-by-turn basis. France founded a city where CivGeneral wanted to send our settler, so that settler turned around and built on a point over on the east coast.

Defended against barbs; had one defenseless city sacked for 16 gold.

1125 BC: Babylon pops up in a diplomacy exchange. He wants to give us Horseback Riding in exchange for Code of Laws. I make a counterproposal, which is our Code of Laws and Map Making for his Horseback Riding and world map, which we accept.

Babylon is behind in tech, but has a fair bit of land over there, and as many cities as we do. They'll be a power, in time. They're on their own island, apart from India-Egypt. (Nice pangaea. :p )

1100 BC: Literature is around this turn and France is building the Great Library. This is bad: it means the cascade from the Pyramids will continue to the Great Library, and really hurt our chances of landing it in Paris with a Leader.

1075 BC: The minimum run on Polytheism has finished.

Traded to France for full monopoly cash cost of 349 gold!
Traded to England for Literature, 52 gold, and a world map.
Traded to Egypt for 124 gold.
Traded to India for Philosophy.

Minimum research on Republic is ordered, although we could change that to max which would take 24 turns.

==========

We have one currently active settler that will probably be our last (other than replacing autorazed French cities.) It should go to the extreme southeastern tip of our landmass, although a barb camp just popped up there (on the spot we want to settle), so be careful.

Ulundi, Bapedi, and Hlobane were cranking warriors like crazy on my turn. There's seven in Hlobane already, and more on the way. Cartouche will probably get to upgrade them (we have 763 gold!) and declare war on France on his turn, assuming we're all agreed in turning Paris into the cultural capital of the world. Orleans is the only other French city that hasn't expanded borders and thus won't be autorazed, but it's farther away and has worse terrain than Paris. (If we try to take any with unexpanded borders, even if it's larger than size 1, the AI will whip defenders and the city will end up size 1 and autorazed.)

Hopefully we can get a Great Leader in time to build the Great Library, or maybe the Hanging Gardens, or at least the Forbidden Palace.

If possible, I would be in favor of delaying our Golden Age. Maybe try to trigger it with an Impi just before we finish eliminating France, 30 or so turns from now as we get into Republic. I don't think it will help now, although if it does happen, it's not that bad.

The moment our Zulu will discover the wonders of culture is close at hand!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/rbp8-1000bc.zip

T-hawk <<< Just Played
Cartouche Bee <<< UP NOW
Skyfish <<< On Deck
Charis
CivGeneral
 
I'll stick with building warriors to flesh out the army and mass up MP's. Paris will be the target and I want at least 10 swords for the frontal attack.

975BC
Bapedi will build horsemen since it has 6 shields and will give some speed to react to barbs or other threats. I want to get the spice connected in Ulundi, via Hlobane but I'll only commit one worker to that task. I only assign 1 worker to hook up the iron cause that gives us time to build another half dozen warriors.

950BC London build oracle.

The barbs over at the last city site are a bother without much defense. I eliminate the camp with the warrior from Tuglea, our city defends against a warrior and I have to sacrifice a scout as bait to get the horsemen away from our 2 weakened warriors.

850BC The French complete the Pyramids. Mathematics is widely available now and I can pick it up for 103 gold. I will take one cat with the sword stack and may get lucky and drop Paris to size 6 with a hit. Ivory comes on line (from the build road to!) so I readjust the worker in Ulundi. Found Umfolozi.

800BC Declare war with France. Paris is down to size 4 from size 7! I have 11 swords, 1 cat and 1 horseman on the way under declaration of war. If I had been sharper I would have moved a couple the of regular warriors in Hlobane back to MP exchange with the vets doing that duty.

775BC Paris down to size 2! Guess they are panicked. Just shows how strong a cat can be. :lol:

750BC The capitol starts a rax to add to the war effort.

We are on the doorstep of Paris. In 2 turns the spice will be hooked up helping to put another level of happiness across the board.
RBP8 750BC

RPB6-750BC.JPG
 
I'm glad to see we're finally about to capture our first city :P
Wow, size 7 to 2? Paris and the French collapsing in a heap at the hint of war? Imagine that!! On the downside, Paris is going to be *majorly* uphappy for a millenium to come. We'll likely whip it once to get that temple out asap, and it will bear the brunt of Joan's whip for a long time. I'm glad we have several luxuries to help with that. Going to Republic when we can will also help, letting us cash rush instead of pop-rush. Pariszulu will need every cultural building done the turn after the tech is available, when it's not busy pre-building. Churning out some extra workers from other cities to help grow Pariszulu may also help.

Good job to all on expanding, we did a very nice job grabbing land, especially to the south where we don't plan to go on offense. We shall increase in size quite a bit by swallowing France. I really hope we can get a leader, the course of the entire game hangs on whether we snag the Great Library or not. So be good fishers of men!

Good luck, Skyfish,
Charis
 
@T-hawk - I am interested in learning more on your Trading Style :)
 
Wow, size 7 to 2? Paris and the French collapsing in a heap at the hint of war? Imagine that!!

:lol: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :goodjob:

I'd probably avoid whipping Paris any more; we aren't that far from Republic. We could also disband military in the city to get the temple built.

Yeah, landing the Great Library there should put us on track for the win. It's not impossible without, though, and the Hanging Gardens are still out there too. Keep your fingers crossed.

CivGeneral - Check out my Realms Beyond Civ Epic 25 report at http://www.dos486.com/civ3/epic25/ for a tour-de-force of trading and brokering.

Skyfish, you're up! Oh, and cancel those granaries being built if we're about to capture the Pyramids :D
 
Sh*t !
I was looking up to this Leader fishing expedition : I get an IOData BIC error when I try to open the file...
Could it be because it was played in 1.21f (with all those SGs and 2 patches I understand it could easily happen really) ? or is just a .sav corruption issue ?
Can anyone try to open it to see if they get a problem ?
:help:
 
Could be version problem, I can't check right now.

I think I should drop out of the game. I'm not going to sign up for anymore of the 1.14 games.

How about you play my turns over then, Skyfish and move the game forward?

If that's not acceptable I can do my turns over tonight, on 1.14 if that was the problem.
 
You just want to take Paris! ;)

Anyway based on your response and our time differences I'll rerun the turns tonight (unless directed otherwise). Be intersting to see if the French capitulate in Paris as fast under threat of war with 1.14. Also, I won't redistribute those reg warriors as I did not in the first play, otherwise there was not much action that would change the outcome.

My apologies for the screw up.
 
If everyone in the game could run 1.21 I'd leave it upgraded, but Skyfish is stuck on 1.14 IIRC. So, Cartouche, if you would, please play again under 1.14. (Don't feel bad, I did the same thing to SP5 :) ) And I know you don't want to drop LK44 which is also 1.14, so you gotta deal with the versions anyway ;)
 
Thanks, T-hawk I just need to pay more attention. ;)


Notes the same except for 800BC, where I saw that Paris must have built a settler before I declared war.



I'll stick with building warriors to flesh out the army and mass up MP's. Paris will be the target and I want at least 10 swords for the frontal attack.

975BC
Bapedi will build horsemen since it has 6 shields and will give some speed to react to barbs or other threats. I want to get the spice connected in Ulundi, via Hlobane but I'll only commit one worker to that task. I only assign 1 worker to hook up the iron cause that gives us time to build another half dozen warriors.

950BC London build oracle.

The barbs over at the last city site are a bother without much defense. I eliminate the camp with the warrior from Tuglea, our city defends against a warrior and I have to sacrifice a scout as bait to get the horsemen away from our 2 weakened warriors.

850BC The French complete the Pyramids. Mathematics is widely available now and I can pick it up for 103 gold. I will take one cat with the sword stack and may get lucky and drop Paris to size 6 with a hit. Ivory comes on line (from the build road to!) so I readjust the worker in Ulundi. Found Umfolozi.

800BC Paris is down to size 4 from size 7 (so they must have rushed a settler), so this drop was not part of the war declaration! Declare war with France. I have 11 swords, 1 cat and 1 horseman on the way under declaration of war. If I had been sharper I would have moved a couple the of regular warriors in Hlobane back to MP exchange with the vets doing that duty.

775BC Paris down to size 2! Guess they are panicked. Just shows how strong a cat can be.

750BC The capitol starts a rax to add to the war effort.

We are on the doorstep of Paris. In 2 turns the spice will be hooked up helping to put another level of happiness across the board.


RBP8-750BC
 
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