RBP8 - Culture Conquerors

I did say "we should have some kind of restriction", and I was actually going to make it more restrictive until you complained. ;) If you want, you can switch out of this game; we did have another player who wanted in.

As Cartouche points out, we can declare war on other civs and fight in defensive or neutral territory to fish for GLs.

Paris can build the FP in a reasonable amount of time itself even if it doesn't get a GL to do so, which is also an option.

Charis, you around? You were the most enthusiastic about this game, and you haven't commented yet :P
 
Tell you what; let the other player have it. It sounds like you have a different vision of the game then I did. It is getting more variant then I like.

I don't want to be responsible for hold you back.
 
OK. CivGeneral, if you're still reading this, you're in. I'll PM you too. I'm going to rearrange the roster as follows:

T-hawk << JUST PLAYED
Cartouche Bee << UP NOW
Skyfish << On Deck
Charis
CivGeneral

Keeping Charis and myself as the RB anchors separated; Skyfish wanted to follow Cartouche; and slotting the newcomer in at the end so CivGeneral can get his bearings before jumping in. Also giving Charis a couple days to focus on the Epic 25 reports before being distracted here.

Cartouche: go for it! Play 10 or 20 if you like, since the first seven will be spent finishing a granary anyway.
 
Oh I'm still here, and still enthusiastic. The current topics have been only minor differences to me while deal-breakers to others, so I have had anything to add beyond my initial thought for one way to add a restriction.

I'm more of a by-the-spirit player, so I don't need loophole closing rules to keep me from going astray. This is all about a 20K culture win in a city not your starting capital, with the idea being a true culture-based game and win, not one where you reach 20K first because you've mauled the opposition in another warmonger game. :p

In my mind, the smaller your empire, the less you fight, the more you treat the culture city as the center of the world and let it totally focus on culture, the sweeter the victory.

Regarding other comments, coastal won't matter much. The Great Library is the uber-wonder for 20K wins, picking up one other ancient wonder, any one is nice, then with prebuilds get 2-3 middle age ones, and the typical human mop up on industrial and later wonders, and there ya go. Having a palace prebuild available will be *huge*.

I agree our 20K city should definitely be our FP. Now if I understood the restriction correctly, we won't be able to expand militarily after our first war? It would seem good then to expand aggressively and peacefully and build up some good solid and productive cities, then when the time for war comes, swallow the whole nation. That should give enough cities overall for two full rings, we'll need no more, and we can then capture rather than raze them. In closing the war we would realize that culture is the way to our future, not violence, and put our warring ways behind us. Making that a nice protracted war will also give us a good chance for a Great Leader (to rush the FP?)

France or England? I like the city-spot of Paris much better, I like swallowing the English better from role playing perspective, but either will work - it boils down to what size of a 'final' empire do we want and WHEN do we want to capture the 20K city? A rather late capture with a very nasty war swallowing all of England would give us 2/3 of the continent and give us like 2.5 rings - at a cost of losing early culture - it might be overkill. Paris and France can be swallowed earlier, and give us a healthy but not overbearing empire size.

:egypt:
Charis
 
Originally posted by Skyfish
Hu...CivGeneral : Please don't go ICS on us :eek:
:D

Hehe, Dont worry I wont :).
 
Originally posted by Charis
Oh I'm still here, and still enthusiastic. The current topics have been only minor differences to me while deal-breakers to others, so I have had anything to add beyond my initial thought for one way to add a restriction.



during the space race, we may not take action against enemy cities, but we can go for bombardment and resource denial.

I actually thought this would be an easy game for a diversion. It didn't fully sink in until T-Hawk's comment that this would be a difficult game. With the military restriction, and T-Hawks proposal it would be a harder game then I was looking for. With the Emperor AW going I have plenty of hard games.
 
2750
mm zimbab for growth. lux 50%. I seee the first barb to the west. change ulundi from worker to warrior, safety move.

2710
warrior arrive at zimbab and lux 40%. pop hut for mysticism. Can't get diddly for it so I'll wait.

2670
shadow that french settle that now has a warrior escort. trying to drag barb over to them.

2630
ulundi warrior->worker I consider hooking up the dyes but it will tie up the worker too long with easier tile improvements available. One roaded worked tile will make up for the loss but as the civ gets bigger we will have to invest in roading these jungle born lux. India has wheel so a brokering event may be coming on line. Franch founds Lyon a new potential target is born, on a river, game,lux and hills but light on grasslands.

2590
Lux 30 zimbab settler->settler The good new is that the dot site has a lux, the bad is after this road is done I have to back track.

2550

2510
Bapedi is founded and starts a warrior.

2470

2430
lux 20% zimbab settler->settler Ulundi worker->warrior settler heads for the 2 haystacks with escort

2390

2350

2310
Bapedi warrior-impi. Lux 30 Palace is started

2270
Found Hlobane ->worker Discover iron working.
France writing and 33 gold for iron working.
Indians sell us contact with Egypt for writing and 25 gold.
Egypt gives us 20 gold and wheel for contact with English and alphabet.
English 22 gold for wheel.
That strips all the AI of everything they have right now. We have horses by the 2 haystacks.

2230
Ulundi warrior->worker Zimbab settler->warrior start settler with escort toward the nearest iron. Lux 10% We need escorts!

2190
lux 30.

2150
lux 20. zimbab warrior->settler

Notes: There are alot of barbarians wandering around so watch out.

Maybe we could get T-Hawk to make a more upto date dot map to give some guidance on future expansion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RPB8-2150BC.SAV
 
Comments on the save:

Worker chopping a forest that's outside our borders, when there's two bonus grasslands waiting to be mined? :smoke: :smoke: [pimp] Get him out of there!

Also, get Ulundi working all max-food tiles instead of the hill. I think it should also build a granary and be a settler/worker pump, rather than building a worker immediately.

Anyway, here's how I'd dotmap this thing:

rbp8-dotmap1.jpg


Our current settler should found on black dot. That gets us iron in first-ring, and an ivory in second-ring for whenever the city gets around to building some culture. I'd like our next settler to go for light green, to claim us more iron and ivory, although we probably won't get this because that English settler will probably go there. White dot is next, to get us some spices if they don't get claimed before that.

All the light blue dots are low-priority "if/when we get there" sites. I'd expect we'll probably be attacking France before we get all of them, though.

Skyfish, you're up. Ten turns, which will be to 1750 BC. :goodjob:
 
Those shields from logging will go to Bapedi and I'm heading for connecting the horses.

The workers coming on line are to mine BG and connect the cities.

I think of any good reason to not be going for the food in Ulundi except poor play on my part, sorry about that, that was only one turn at least.
 
20K site assessment :
I was wrong London is not using wasted coastal tiles.
However Lyons is a much better (and closer) Wonder building city than Paris. It's got food bonuses(1 game, 1 flood plain), 4 hills , 2 mountains, 2 BG, a real nice mix which allows creative MM. Just what I like.

I consider long and hard the switch to granary on Ulundi, as suggested by T-Hawk, but we need workers ASAP, waiting aro. 20 turns (with a whip) is too long. Leave it on worker.

1-2110 : Bapedi completes worker, switch to rax, English settler moves south instead of East: I use the opening to move my 2 scouts
towards the settler and start a moving blockade. T-Hawk wants that Light Green site ? Skyfish will get him ;)
A barb is threatening our settler and has moved on a hill I abstain from attacking, will have to defend.. .

IBT : Barb attacks our settler escort, loses and our Barb promotes to vet without any hp lost.

2-2070: Ulundi produces Worker and goes for granary.
Isandhlwana is founded on Black spot. Set to Warrior due in 5 turns, because of the Iron it has great shields and low field. Nothing on the tech front.
England wants 28g, I cave in. We have 186g and making 12 gpt, bound to happen

3-2030: blockade requires our vet warrior, but could work out nicely :)

4-1990: scout in north sets a barb trap to get him away from our workers. Zimbabwe produces settler, has to go warrior, just because of a barb threat, might switch back to settler.
Now big treasure looking for a good use : no tech available BUT England shows 2 workers available ! I buy them for 170g + 3 gpt. That'll take care of the demands for now.

5-1950: playing cat and mouse with both english settler and a barb in the south. Kill a barb in the North, no promotion :( Zimbabwe switch to settler :)

ibt : French start Pyramids in Paris. Egyptians start Oracle.

6-1910: Bapedi produces barracks right on time with the chopped forest, it just needed 10 shields(I helped fate a bit by adding a worker to the chop 1 turn ago)
By the way a Barb Horseman is heading towards Bapedi or Zimbabwe, set Bapedi to Archer. Hlobane worker-> worker Isandhlwana warrior-> warrior

7-1880: Pulling Horseman into open territory...

8-1830: just manage to kill horseman with one Zimbabwe warrior.

9-1790: Settler in place on Light green dot, barbs pop up here and there, need some horsemen ! Zimb produces settler but maybe should first produce a warrior for escort, up to next leader.
Still nothing on the tech front (what a change from Deity hu ?)

ibt : English building Oracle. Egyptians on Colossus.

10-1750: Intombe founded on Light Green spot, set to warrior. Vet warrior kills a barb by Intombe and promotes to Elite but with just 2 hp left. A barb horseman shows up near Zimbabwe,so I move forces around to provide cover.

There is a bit of a situation with the Barbs but with some shuffling around and some trademark :hammer: Charis, we should be OK. You love Chess, don't you ? (;-)
I would take the warrior from Isandhlwana and use it as escort for the settler since there is another warrior coming in 2 turns.

The Blue dot just south of that barb camp is a priority with that wandering settler. It's got Game, river and bg and is a first ring city PLUS it will take care of barbs in that region.
Next settler should then go for the Spices. At least that's how I would play it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/RBP8-_1750_BC.zip
 
Nice work on getting the Intombe site! Hook up of horses is almost done and looks like you got an elite warrior too! France and England are wasting their production on early wonders, just so we can pass them in *meaningful* production.
 
I see I'm up next, so 'got it'. I have plans tonight, so I won't finish until tomorrow night.

I think I would have gone with granary too. Our need is for 'several/many' workers, not so much 'one worker now', but with iron disconnected, I can see wanting one right away.

Looking back at the pre-turn map, we knew about iron then and it's still not hooked up? Is that why we're cranking warriors? Are they vets? (I hope. Oh good grief, looks at the map, reg, reg, reg, reg... and no treasury for upgrading anyway) Why are we working on an archer? Why haven't we hit France yet? Why does buttered bread land on the butter side if you drop it? Ooops... those are just things I'm curious about, not nits, I've not looked at any of the saves yet. Besides I think I know the answer - 'jungle'. But I would be surprised not to see some whipping and heavy preparation for war on my watch.

Charis
 
Archer is still vetoable, but we are badly missing firepower to get rid of those barbs, you'll see when you start playing :lol:
Iron not connected because it's far away and would have taken 10 turns to get hooked up while our core is still working non-improved tiles. The city next to Iron has very low food but good shields, one worker in 20 turns :(
We don't even have barracks yet (OK it just finished a turn ago), and you want me to hit France ? I usually get told off because I take too many risks but that one would been a major :nono: I am sure... :)

ps : true I am weak on the whip..but we are weak on food as well.
 
Not unexpectedly, a closer look at the map shows our problems are map related, not weed related :P It's a rough start!
---

Charishaka the Mighty Zulu wrenched power in the year 1750BC.
He was known to all as "Great Elephant" and he was known far
and wide as a military man. A ruthless one. A burn-their-village
kind of guy. Yet hardly anyone knew the real Charishaka. He was
actually a calm, peace loving guy. He had a real appreciation for
all things cultural. In fact, he thought the Zulu culture FAR
superior to any culture in the land. He vowed, a most sacred
vow, that he would depose the leader of one of the nation of
"swallows", and their, *in their very city*, build a Mecca of
Zulu culture and esteem. The only questions were where, and when?!

The tradition of his fathers and other generals taught to fight
wars of limited objectives - have an exit strategy. But Charishaka
would have none of this. He lived by one motto - Never, ever, leave
an enemy behind. (Historical note- I believe this WAS a key principle
Shaka lived by, but ironically, he left behind one very important
enemy, his half-brother, who would one day slay the great elephant!
Plus, this fits in the the rules of the SG, we'll only get ONE crack
at an offensive war, and so it should be one where we end up swallowing
the nation whole, not stopping for peace.)

He brought forth his advisors to explain the situation. The terrain
was hideous, they cried, and it has taken the wisest and most skillful
of our leaders to even get us as far as we have gotten today. Worse,
barbarians plagued the countryside and threatened our very safety.
This could not stand.

In power we reign supreme on our continent. Zimbabwe is considered
the greatest city on the planet. There is one that challenges its
claim to supremacy. Paris. "Pah-REE" these young whelps would say.
This sad city is trying to actually produce a great wonder, called
the Pyramids. It's the only nation even trying! However they only
started five seasons ago, so I don't relish waiting until it's done.
Still, that means their most productive city, 25% of their whole
nation's productivity, is tied up!

Charishaka looks at the lame excuses for boys posing as spearmen, and
makes several modifications to their tactics. First he replaces the long,
thin, weak throwing spear with a much tougher, shorter, wider, thrusting
spear for close combat. Second he trains ALL warriors to run like horses,
knowing that speed matters. Third, he teaches these men to use formations
and terrain to their advantage. These new breed of spearmen would be known
to the world as "Impi." They would become a distinctive trait of the Zulu.

Our military is considered "weak" compared to ALL nations, says our
military advisor. Charishaka almost feints, knowing the leanings of
those who came before. It's the jungle, sir, the jungle. All in all then,
we're in absolutely no shape to wage a major war, one we plan to last until
France is wiped off the map. We do want to settle the horse and/or iron north
of Hlobane (although capture from France would do just as well). If we won't
be able to fight two civs then, we'll want to focus settlers in the SOUTH,
away from France, to claim land peacefully there, and plan to capture several
cities in the North.

[0] -1750: Ah, that archer from Bapedi will be a vet! That's much better
than a reg archer. Still... Hlobane with two wheat is swapped to granary,
while Ulundi with several hills, is swapped from granary to rax. Intombe to rax.
Isandhlwana is swapped from warrior to rax. The warrior there moves to cover
the settler, who is heading for south of barb camp. Why all the rax? I want
VET warriors, even for MP, so that when our peaceful expansion is over, we can
upgrade them en masse to warriors and start mauling. Besides, as we're mil, they're
cheap. I move lux down from 10% to 0%, it's just not needed right now.

With this strat, and with a build-up needed before hitting France, holding off
the iron hookup was the right choice by previous leaders. In fact, let's crank
12-15 vet warriors or so before hooking one up.

(IBT) Sonofagun, a barb horse shows up west of Isand, just a a barb warr comes
up from the east next to our warr-settler pair. If our warr attacks, the city
is toast to the horse. So be it! (??!)

[1] -1725: We press forward to the camp, killing two barb warriors.
(IBT) Yes, Isand is sacked, for 11g.

[2] -1700: Ulundi's rax is done, and it starts an Impi.
Two workers are on the horse and need to make a road. It would take 3 turns for one,
looking like a wasted turn. Let's try "ctrl-R".

[3] -1675: France moves a settler pair next to the iron on the coast and will get it.
Before they settle our scout reaches the iron, and settles in for a nap. It's a nice
view from the hill (an honorable man will move him when a worker asks of course)

As predicted, the cntrl-R redeems our turn. Mountain camp dispersed.

[4] -1650: Indians start Oracle. An English settler-warr pair is heading towards us,
If he actually steps into our land, he might be in for a surprise?!
Where to send OUR new settler? To white dot for incense. Mpondo is founded,
which means "City founded beneath the slain barbarians who dared oppose Charishaka!"
(or so tells the Great Elephant's historian!)

Bapedi tried to mm for an early archer, but corruption prevailed. With one
shield short, I hate to see the waste, and swap to granary. Bapedi is potentially
a great city, but surrouned by jungle. It will need many workers.
(IBT) We get the FP msg, ah yes, it's a small world, after all.

[5] -1625: Egypt and France have Code of Laws. I hold off, waiting for a brokerage,
as the other two civs are broke.
(IBT) Egypt starts the Pyramids. I hope Paris beats them!

[6] -1600: Quiet turn of movement. (IBT) That English settler pair turned around and
settled Canterbury on the lake in the jungle. Our incense city will be halfway between
it and Isand.

[7] -1575: At Hlobane we start some longer-term worker projects. Two start hacking
down a jungle that leads to the lake, and the other to a forest which when chopped
will allow water to be brought over to irrigate the second wheat.

[8] -1550: Our first Impi completes at Ulundi. Next up, a Chariot, with a better
upgrade path than an archer. Besides, "SPEED!" says Charishaka. In fact, have we
forgotten the dread power of horse-impi pairs?! (No, horses just got hooked up)

[9] -1525: A turn spent contemplating when we will see a city captured...

[10] -1500: Zimbabwe's culture expands, as our glorious Impi enters the city to protect
it. Ngome is settled to claim the incense. It's escort warrior diverted and took
out a barb camp, and should be sent to protect this new city. The spot is 100%
jungle infested, and starts a granary. It's a no-rush city, but will need a slew
of workers. If things get hot, swap to a rax.

SE of Zimbabwe is an extra warrior heading to the city to provide escort for the
settler due out very shortly. Imtombe is a candidate for our first temple, btw,
to expand and claim those ivory.

Save file 1500BC RBP8

Good luck,
Charishaka, the Great Elephant
 
Looks good. One nit: Charishaka the Micromanager left Ulundi working +2 food instead of +3. :p One other nit: the worker chopping forest at Hlobane should be chopping one tile south of where it is; that would let irrigation go through the horses tile and get to the wheats sooner. OK, one more nit: chopping jungle at Isandhlwana? Better, I think, to just build the road through, and get the workers busy irrigating plains there and eventually hooking up the iron.

I'd also like to point out that despite starting in the jungle, we're STILL out-expanding our rivals.

CivGeneral, you'd be up now. Play 10 turns, to 1250 BC. :goodjob:
 
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