RBtS1a - The Thief Economy

[uberfish]

preturn: queue barracks in front of worker in Lakamha

71 (2250BC): Mutal, Warrior -> Holkan

73 (2175BC): Mutal to size 5 - Queue worker in front of holkan absorbing the forest chop

76 (2100BC): 2nd worker out. Masonry -> Agriculture, we need this for pottery, to unlock those expansive granaries.

Great Wall is doable in 14 turns in Mutal. I notice that it will take that long to connect the copper and finish the barracks in Lakamha anyway, so I queue it up. It costs us about 4 holkans but prevents barbarian harrassment from the east which we will not settle for quite a while, so I think it's worth it.

84 (1900BC) - Darius founds a 3rd city in a nice spot SW of persepolis. Our scout warrior in the west gets attacked by its 3rd barbarian in 5 turns, and dies.

86 (1850BC) - Agriculture -> Pottery.

90 (1750BC) - Copper connected. Also, we successfully build



Start recalling eastern warrior for garrison duty. Revolt to Slavery since I notice we haven't done this yet. Since I handed over in anarchy feel free to take an extra turn.

AI expansion map:



Have fun invading Persia guys, it should be an easy win since this guy apparently has no copper.

 

[darrelljs]

prevents barbarian harrassment from the east which we will not settle for quite a while, so I think it's worth it.

Definitely . I hadn't noticed that, but it was worth the detour. Also, the Great Spy in 74 turns will be worth a lot down the road (this might be the first game we build a Courthouse in the capital ). We're a bit behind where we could be in terms of war buildup (Darius is already at 4 cities, let's hope Aggressive AI unit spamming hasn't started yet), but still the right decision. I go ahead and whip the barracks in Lakamha, leaving us at size two and working the Sheep/Copper. The whip anger is now gone in that city and we can whip after the current axeman completes. Might need to wait for the forest chop hammers to flush if you want to get a two pop whip. I don't see any point in pop rushing in the capital, it is at the happy cap and we can only get rid of one citizen, plus it is working lots of mines right now. I did chop the three grassland/river forests, but did not bother to put any cottages up yet. I also slipped in granaries, that was probably a dumb move for the capital but it was only 3 turns. Here's where we are at after my 15 turns:

After Pottery finished, I went Writing. My goal is Code of Laws rather than Alphabet. We need Courthouses both for Spy specialists and for the maintenance costs we are about to take on .

Qwack, you are up...not sure if you can declare or not in your turnset.

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

I actually like the placement of the copper city. Leaves the corn for a future coastal city in the north.

Anyways got it, will play tonight.

 

[darrelljs]

After Pottery finished, I went Writing. My goal is Code of Laws rather than Alphabet. We need Courthouses both for Spy specialists and for the maintenance costs we are about to take on .

Whoa...I almost forgot our variant . After Writing we have to do Alphabet next (or a pressing Worker tech), Code of Laws must be stolen.

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

I'm away for a couple of days from now and won't be able to play until Wenesday, so if Qwack finishes his turns before then, swap me/skip me or wait for me.

 

[Qwack]

Turns Completed.

Checked the power graph on turn one, and seems Darius's power is actually higher than you would expect at this point in the game. Most likely due to horses in his first ring and his starting tech's. All other civs are actually pretty low still. I decided to wait for 2 more axeman before declaring war.

Declared in 1275 BC. He has 2 archers in pasagardae and a immortal/archer guarding a worker nearby. I also notice we have a holkan in the south and 2 immortals+settler pair passing by. Props to whoever plopped that holkan there.

Immortals do get defensive bonuses, but 1 holkan should take both out with an extra promotion. I attack and lose the first battle at 96.4% odds . sigh.. Anyhow we were able to take pasagardae with 2 losses. Fortunately darius did not move back his immortal or archer into pasagardae or whip a unit, which woul dhave increased our losses. Lost 2 axeman taking the city.

I started building a couple of holkans in our 2 cities rather than more axes. In this situation I think we need holkans to defend captured cities, since immortals will eat axeman if we use them. I put 2 holkans in Pasagardae to be safe. Persopolis unfortuantely is heavily defended

I was hoping it woul dbe defended by 3 and max 4 units, but guess not. I was going to start a settler to settle coastal city int he north, but after checking persopolis defense, I just kept building units. We probably need 9-11 units for a safe assault if he keeps all those units in there. 1 of our Holkans is weakened inear Persopolis, probably best to move him back towards pasagardae (and bring a guy from pasagardae to attack the city + reinforcements from the mainland).

I whipped a monument in pasagardae and prebuilt a cottage in our capital. Sending workers to chop some more plains hills forests now near capital. Not sure whats the best plan here, but taking Persopolis would be very useful. We can pillage the horses if we want to, but im not sure whether we want Darius to build extra immortals here or extra archers. If we pillage the horses he can build archers only. Our axeman actually attack archers first in Persopolis, so if we suicide 3 axeman to weaken 3 archers, our holkans will be up against weakened archers or immortals, which is good.

Save:

 

[uberfish]

Immortals get defence bonuses unlike normal chariots, that is why our axes would attack archers. 6 units in a 40% city is pretty tough (and it's going to be more by the time we have 11 units there) Maybe a unit mix biased towards holkans would work if we leave the horses intact.

We do have another option, we can pillage horses to shut down his mobility, capture his other cities and then take a ceasefire to build a large stack.

 

[cabert]

lurker's comment: There is something wrong with this variant.
The great spy not only gives 12 EP, he also gives 3 beakers.
You'll have to avoid researching techs by tech jungling .

 

[uberfish]

Ok, I'm swapping with Ozbenno for this round only then.

I had a bit of time and played it, shuffling holkans around on the first turn as Qwack suggested. Wang Kon asked for open borders which I gave. One of the immortals came out and tried to pillage our copper and was promptly smacked down by a holkan. I tried leaving one defender in Pasargadae to draw more out, but they weren't biting.

On the 4th turn I microed Lakamha for a double whip. Darius somehow got metals from somewhere as an axe appeared in Persepolis on the 7th turn so I had to attack asap.

On turn 9 we fight the battle for Persepolis:

PACAL (7 axe, 5 holkan with 2 stragglers available next turn)

vs

DARIUS (3 archers, 3 immortals, 1 axe with whip available next turn)

Axe < archer
Axe < archer
Axe < archer
CR2 Axe > axe
Axe < immortal
Holkan > archer
Holkan > archer
Holkan > immortal
Holkan < immortal
Holkan > immortal
Axe > immortal
Axe > archer



Our luck was average, we lost the three 28% opening battles with archers but damaged them sufficiently that when the Holkans went in they had 80-90% to win. It's a useful little UU.

Checking Darius' trade screen reveals that he has both Alphabet and Iron Working now, so that's where the axe came from.

I stopped troop production as we have 10 units in Persepolis which should be more than sufficient to take out the elephant city and do some pointy stick research. We had 2 unhappiness from WW in Mutal so I whipped them into a 3rd worker.

Oh yeah, we have a great general in our capital to decide what to do with.

 

[darrelljs]

Persopolis unfortuantely is heavily defended

I'd say this is more a cause for happiness...I want my Aggressive AI better able to resist an early rush. I wonder though if the AI was whipping defenders while you were taking Pasargadae? I'll have to check in worldbuilder from my save after this game is over. Anyway, good turnset and good follow-up uberfish . I have to admit after reading Qwack's post, I wasn't sure we'd be able to take Persepolis, especially with the AI whipping defenders.

I stopped troop production as we have 10 units in Persepolis which should be more than sufficient to take out the elephant city and do some pointy stick research

Agreed...remember though we can only take Alphabet or Worker techs for peace, other techs have to be stolen. Ozbenno should be back by now, unless he fails to post a claim I'll wait for him. Unfortunately it looks like we'll have to skip blid again, I hate to do it twice but he won't be back until Saturday.

@cabert - Yup, that's right...both Spies and settled Great Spies give beakers, and it is possible to get beakers other ways (certain captured wonders). As long as we don't discover the tech however, we don't violate the rules. My thinking was set research to the tech we plan to steal next.

Darrell

 

[uberfish]

We can't trade or even extort techs? Ouch. Does IW count as a worker tech?

 

[darrelljs]

Does IW count as a worker tech?

Yes, but unfortunately the variant rule is only Ancient Era Worker techs are allowed .

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

Nice turns Uberfish. Was concerned about taking Persopolis but the city choosing archers to defend against axeman rrather than immortals was helpful.

Oh and btw, I think our first great spy should build the scotland yard rather than being settled. If any of our cities is producing 12 spy points per turn(which will probably be the case), scotland yard is better since its +100%.

 

[darrelljs]

Oh and btw, I think our first great spy should build the scotland yard rather than being settled. If any of our cities is producing 12 spy points per turn(which will probably be the case), scotland yard is better since its +100%.

Yeah...you're right. As much as I'd love to Farm/Mine Persepolis into the hammer powerhouse it so richly deserves to be, it is our best potential commerce city right now. I'm having massive video card problems when I run any 3D game (new card should arrive via UPS tomorrow), so I can't do a good scout of our terrain. Is there a better site?

Darrell

 

[Ozbenno]

Got it. Probably won't be able to play until tomorrow night though.

Is the preference to get Alphabet for peace if it is on offer or just continue the war?

If we're continuing the war a super axe cr3 + cover might be a good use for the GG, otherwise just merge in the capital.

 

[uberfish]

Darius won't give alphabet now, maybe after we take the elephant city? if he won't I guess we can just finish him off. We won't need a GG unit for it, merging it somewhere is good.

Hmm, if we don't attack Egypt right away we could consider building pyramids to get access to better government civics, since it'll be a while before we can steal them otherwise.

 

[darrelljs]

Darius won't give alphabet now, maybe after we take the elephant city? if he won't I guess we can just finish him off.

I'm kind of in favor of finishing him off. I almost always turned vassals off in Warlords but I've left it on in BTS simply because the AI won't vassalize someone you are pounding if you have military parity. However, I've noticed as soon as you make peace with an AI whose back you've broken, they'll often look for a protector. Its good behavior on their part.

Darrell

 

[Qwack]

If his other cities are too far away I would be in favor of letting him be for now. Most likely shaka will attack darius sometime later, we can go in and clean him up then. He wont be able to catipulate to anyone until feudalism anyways.

Or we can raze his cities that are too far away, really dont want 8+ maintenance this early in the game with our research already rather sad. Also I think we will need around 1500+ spy points eventually to start stealing tech's with a high success rate. So we need to rebuild our economy.

 

[darrelljs]

I definitely think after Ivory spot we should raze. I forget/never new the Feudalism requirement though, so peace for Alphabet should be fine.

Darrell

 

[uberfish]

Darius has exactly two cities right now, the ivory spot and one to the SE of Persepolis next to Egypt.

If we'll need 1500+ spy points to steal anything good, we should actually consider building pyramids just as a happiness solution.